low level format

atlantis43 via WindowsKB. · External Since: Apr 04, 2007 Posts: 6

I gateway PC which is quite functional but afflicted with many small problems.
I'm wondering if anyone can tell me if I can do a low level format of my HD,
and then re-install my OS from the "installation discs" that came with the PC.

Richard

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Mike M1 · External Since: Jun 26, 2004 Posts: 4241

Personally I'd simply format and install, a "low level" format is very
rarely required and is manufacturer specific however if this is really
what you feel you should do then you need to visit the website of the
manufacturer of your hard disk to see if they have the necessary utility
available. Low level formats aren't a method of fixing small problems
with an operating system but rather used to try and deal with deep seated
problems with a hard disk.

I suspect that what you want to do is to format your hard disk which is
done by booting to DOS with a Win Me boot floppy and running the Format
command.

For more information see the Microsoft Knowledge Base article 255867 -
"How to Use the Fdisk Tool and the Format Tool to Partition or Repartition
a Hard Disk" (http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=255867) as well as the
file CLEANHD.TXT which is in the Win 9x folder on the Win Me CD and also
as KB271673 - "Windows Millennium Edition Cleanhd.txt File Contents"
(http://support.microsoft.com?kbid=271673).. This should help you get
started.
--
Mike Maltby
mike.maltby.TakeThisOut@gmail.com

atlantis43 via WindowsKB.com <u24690@uwe> wrote:

> I gateway PC which is quite functional but afflicted with many small
> problems. I'm wondering if anyone can tell me if I can do a low level
> format of my HD, and then re-install my OS from the "installation
> discs" that came with the PC.

"cquirke · External Since: Mar 06, 2005 Posts: 395

On Wed, 04 Apr 2007 16:25:22 GMT, "atlantis43 via WindowsKB.com"

>I gateway PC which is quite functional but afflicted with many small problems.
>I'm wondering if anyone can tell me if I can do a low level format of my HD,
>and then re-install my OS from the "installation discs" that came with the PC.

See http://cquirke.mvps.org/reinst.htm

Rather figure out those "many small problems", in case you end up with
one large problem instead Wink

Seriously; many types of problems can corrupt the process of "just"
rebuilding the system software, so you'd wish you could Undo.

>-------------------- ----- ---- --- -- - - - -
Hmmm... what was the *other* idea?
>-------------------- ----- ---- --- -- - - - -

atlantis43 via WindowsKB. · External Since: Apr 04, 2007 Posts: 6

CQuirke;
Your links are very interesting, but the specific troublesome problem seems
to elude 'figuring out'.
Generally, the year-old PC with lots of ram & free memory & cache seems to
work extremely slowly, predominantly in MSAccess2003. I've already had my
shop evaluate (and simply reinstall WinXP and MSOffice), and it improved only
slightly. (I don't reeally use many other apps where I can evaluate
processing speed, so I can't tell if the whole system is slow.)
The shop failed to write zeros to my WD hard drive before they re-installed,
even though WD recommends that this should be done before any OS re-install,
so I think that this is a good place to start (in spite of your link).
It might be some incompatible software that I previously installed that is
slowing things down (I did load some old apps that are not XP compatible), or
it might be some malware (though norton & zonelabs don't find anything), or
maybe my system just needs replaceing.
Thanks again
Richard

cquirke (MVP Windows shell/user) wrote:
>On Wed, 04 Apr 2007 16:25:22 GMT, "atlantis43 via WindowsKB.com"
>
>>I gateway PC which is quite functional but afflicted with many small problems.
>>I'm wondering if anyone can tell me if I can do a low level format of my HD,
>>and then re-install my OS from the "installation discs" that came with the PC.
>
>See http://cquirke.mvps.org/reinst.htm
>
>Rather figure out those "many small problems", in case you end up with
>one large problem instead Wink

>
>Seriously; many types of problems can corrupt the process of "just"
>rebuilding the system software, so you'd wish you could Undo.
>
>>-------------------- ----- ---- --- -- - - - -
> Hmmm... what was the *other* idea?
>>-------------------- ----- ---- --- -- - - - -

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Mike M1 · External Since: Jun 26, 2004 Posts: 4241

atlantis43 via WindowsKB.com <u24690@uwe> wrote:

> Source for above statement (for RE-INSTALLING an OS) can be seen on
> WD KB msg #1211, virtually verbatim!

"Western Digital provides software utilities that can erase all the data
on a hard drive. Writing zeros to a drive is recommended any time an
operating system is to be reinstalled on a boot drive or whenever a blank
drive is desired. "

Recommended maybe but by no means required. I have never had to write
zeroes to a hard drive before either first use or installing an operating
system and I've been working with PCs now for the best part of twenty five
years. Since I have never experienced problems that might require a low
level format I don't intend doing so now. <g>

Seagate in contrast say "Perform this "low-level-format" only if all other
POWERMAX tests have passed (or by direction of Seagate Technical Support)
and the hard drive is still not performing correctly."

> Also, a top level IT acquaintance tells me (as I, with my limited PC
> knowledge understand it) that there can frequently be 'duplicate'
> files that are corrupted (perhaps due to malware, improper uninstall
> procedures, etc.) that can be causing system malfunctions, and the
> only way to solve the problem is to truly 'eliminate' all such files.

I'm sorry but for the greater part your friend is incorrect. Formatting a
hard disk is all that is required to remove a previous operating system.
It is very rarely necessary to write zeroes, this is normally only
required, and multiple times, when disposing of hard drives that
previously contained sensitive material so as to prevent its recovery
using specialist tools.

The only other time that I would contemplate performing a low level format
is if I was experiencing major read or write problems on a hard drive and
I had run the manufacturer's test utility such as Maxtor's PowerMax or
Seagate's SeaTools and the utility had made this recommendation.
--
Mike Maltby
MS-MVP Windows
mike.maltby.DeleteThis@gmail.com

atlantis43 via WindowsKB. · External Since: Apr 04, 2007 Posts: 6

Mike;
Your comments sound convincing, but I remain confused. My particular problem
arose on my PC (the one running XP) with very slow functioning of Access2003
Db, which started running queries slowly, opening forms slowly, and opening
my modules OH SO SLOWLY! My OS and MSOFFICE were re-installed, but this
barely improved the problem.
However, if I take the same Db and install it on a PC with much lower
capabilities, it functions just fine!
Clearly, something is corrupting my system, and persisting after re-
installation. Perhaps this is 'one of those things'.
Perhaps the re-install is not equivalent to a reformat, and I should first
try the Maxtor utility (for my XP system) for a low level format, and not
worry about a full disc cleaning.
Richard

Mike M wrote:
>> Source for above statement (for RE-INSTALLING an OS) can be seen on
>> WD KB msg #1211, virtually verbatim!
>
>"Western Digital provides software utilities that can erase all the data
>on a hard drive. Writing zeros to a drive is recommended any time an
>operating system is to be reinstalled on a boot drive or whenever a blank
>drive is desired. "
>
>Recommended maybe but by no means required. I have never had to write
>zeroes to a hard drive before either first use or installing an operating
>system and I've been working with PCs now for the best part of twenty five
>years. Since I have never experienced problems that might require a low
>level format I don't intend doing so now. <g>
>
>Seagate in contrast say "Perform this "low-level-format" only if all other
>POWERMAX tests have passed (or by direction of Seagate Technical Support)
>and the hard drive is still not performing correctly."
>
>> Also, a top level IT acquaintance tells me (as I, with my limited PC
>> knowledge understand it) that there can frequently be 'duplicate'
>> files that are corrupted (perhaps due to malware, improper uninstall
>> procedures, etc.) that can be causing system malfunctions, and the
>> only way to solve the problem is to truly 'eliminate' all such files.
>
>I'm sorry but for the greater part your friend is incorrect. Formatting a
>hard disk is all that is required to remove a previous operating system.
>It is very rarely necessary to write zeroes, this is normally only
>required, and multiple times, when disposing of hard drives that
>previously contained sensitive material so as to prevent its recovery
>using specialist tools.
>
>The only other time that I would contemplate performing a low level format
>is if I was experiencing major read or write problems on a hard drive and
>I had run the manufacturer's test utility such as Maxtor's PowerMax or
>Seagate's SeaTools and the utility had made this recommendation.

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Mart · External Since: Apr 09, 2005 Posts: 1115

You haven't yet really made a case for suspecting the HDD. You have only
mentioned that it is a particular Access 2003 .mdb file which is slow - and
other (unspecified) small problems. Is the PC running slow with ALL
programs? Is it slow to boot? How about scandisk (or 'Error checking' if
you are running XP)? Does that tell you anything?

What happens if you just open Access alone (no data) - is that slow too?

Why not try Task Manager (Ctrl+Alt+Del) and see if you can identify any
'extra' overheads when opening or rather executing queries in Access.

> However, if I ... install it (the database?) on a PC with much lower
> capabilities, it functions just fine!

'Install'? - I assume you mean 'open' the same .mdb file on another PC
running Access 2003

Have you tried running the Northwind Sample Database? - Is that slow too?

> Perhaps the re-install is not equivalent to a reformat, and I should first
> try the Maxtor utility (for my XP system) for a low level format, and not
> worry about a full disc cleaning.

I think you'll find that a Low Level Format is effectively 'a full disk
clean'. It's not exactly 'selective' - it'll wipe the lot, requiring a full
install etc.

Mart

"atlantis43 via WindowsKB.com" <u24690@uwe> wrote in message
news:70cd53b662c76@uwe...
> Mike;
> Your comments sound convincing, but I remain confused. My particular
> problem
> arose on my PC (the one running XP) with very slow functioning of
> Access2003
> Db, which started running queries slowly, opening forms slowly, and
> opening
> my modules OH SO SLOWLY! My OS and MSOFFICE were re-installed, but this
> barely improved the problem.
> However, if I take the same Db and install it on a PC with much lower
> capabilities, it functions just fine!
> Clearly, something is corrupting my system, and persisting after re-
> installation. Perhaps this is 'one of those things'.
> Perhaps the re-install is not equivalent to a reformat, and I should first
> try the Maxtor utility (for my XP system) for a low level format, and not
> worry about a full disc cleaning.
> Richard
>
> Mike M wrote:
>>> Source for above statement (for RE-INSTALLING an OS) can be seen on
>>> WD KB msg #1211, virtually verbatim!
>>
>>"Western Digital provides software utilities that can erase all the data
>>on a hard drive. Writing zeros to a drive is recommended any time an
>>operating system is to be reinstalled on a boot drive or whenever a blank
>>drive is desired. "
>>
>>Recommended maybe but by no means required. I have never had to write
>>zeroes to a hard drive before either first use or installing an operating
>>system and I've been working with PCs now for the best part of twenty five
>>years. Since I have never experienced problems that might require a low
>>level format I don't intend doing so now. <g>
>>
>>Seagate in contrast say "Perform this "low-level-format" only if all other
>>POWERMAX tests have passed (or by direction of Seagate Technical Support)
>>and the hard drive is still not performing correctly."
>>
>>> Also, a top level IT acquaintance tells me (as I, with my limited PC
>>> knowledge understand it) that there can frequently be 'duplicate'
>>> files that are corrupted (perhaps due to malware, improper uninstall
>>> procedures, etc.) that can be causing system malfunctions, and the
>>> only way to solve the problem is to truly 'eliminate' all such files.
>>
>>I'm sorry but for the greater part your friend is incorrect. Formatting a
>>hard disk is all that is required to remove a previous operating system.
>>It is very rarely necessary to write zeroes, this is normally only
>>required, and multiple times, when disposing of hard drives that
>>previously contained sensitive material so as to prevent its recovery
>>using specialist tools.
>>
>>The only other time that I would contemplate performing a low level format
>>is if I was experiencing major read or write problems on a hard drive and
>>I had run the manufacturer's test utility such as Maxtor's PowerMax or
>>Seagate's SeaTools and the utility had made this recommendation.
>
> --
> Message posted via WindowsKB.com
> http://www.windowskb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/windows-me-setup/200704/1
>

Mike M1 · External Since: Jun 26, 2004 Posts: 4241

Thanks Mart for stepping in. I was rather busy elsewhere for most of
yesterday afternoon and evening so didn't have a chance to check for any
follow-up from Richard.

Richard,

As Mart has said a slow application doesn't necessarily mean that the disk
is bad. Sadly Win Me doesn't have an Event Log such as is in XP where you
could check if the system was having problems accessing the hard disk. I
can't recall whether you have run chkdsk or not or whether this reports
that you have any bad blocks or not. Even so with modern hard disks with
SMART, mapping out of bad disk blocks tends to be done on the fly by the
disk itself and the operating system and chkdsk will normally only come in
to play when all of the spare hardware blocks have been consumed.

Since we are talking Win Me you are using FAT32 as the filing system on
the hard drive. FAT32 is far more susceptible to slow down if fragmented
than say NTFS filing system which is used by most systems running XP.
Have you therefore recently defragged the drive?
--
Mike Maltby
MS-MVP Windows
mike.maltby.DeleteThis@gmail.com

Mart <mart(NoSpam)@nospam.nospam> wrote:

> You haven't yet really made a case for suspecting the HDD. You have
> only mentioned that it is a particular Access 2003 .mdb file which is
> slow - and other (unspecified) small problems. Is the PC running slow
> with ALL programs? Is it slow to boot? How about scandisk (or
> 'Error checking' if you are running XP)? Does that tell you anything?
>
> What happens if you just open Access alone (no data) - is that slow
> too?
> Why not try Task Manager (Ctrl+Alt+Del) and see if you can identify
> any 'extra' overheads when opening or rather executing queries in
> Access.
>> However, if I ... install it (the database?) on a PC with much lower
>> capabilities, it functions just fine!
>
> 'Install'? - I assume you mean 'open' the same .mdb file on another PC
> running Access 2003
>
> Have you tried running the Northwind Sample Database? - Is that slow
> too?
>> Perhaps the re-install is not equivalent to a reformat, and I should
>> first try the Maxtor utility (for my XP system) for a low level
>> format, and not worry about a full disc cleaning.
>
> I think you'll find that a Low Level Format is effectively 'a full
> disk clean'. It's not exactly 'selective' - it'll wipe the lot,
> requiring a full install etc.

atlantis43 via WindowsKB. · External Since: Apr 04, 2007 Posts: 6

Mart:
Is the PC running slow with ALL programs?
>>>>>>>>>>
Hard to tell, as the only one I can compare to previous is my MSAccess Db.
Mozilla, SpeechRecognition, etc all seem to be a bit slower than before, but
not as impressively slower than Access. Also seems somewhat slow to boot,
but again, not impressively so.

How about scandisk (or 'Error checking' if you are running XP)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I've only run defrag, but with no improvement. I'll try 'error checking'.

What happens if you just open Access alone (no data)
>>>>>>>>
Don't know quite what you mean. The Db window opens OK, but anything I truy
to do within an access Db runs slowly.

Why not try Task Manager (Ctrl+Alt+Del)
>>>>>>>>>
Too damned many things to try omitting, and I'm not familiar enough with most
of them to know which are important. Also, I should have noted that the
modules of Access take forever to load INITIALLY. If I close the module
window and then re-open ir, it re-opens much faster. Thus, I'd have to close
Access each time I change settings on task mgr.

Install'? - I assume you mean 'open' the same .mdb file on another PC running
Access 2003
>>>>>>>>>>
Yes

Have you tried running the Northwind Sample Database? - Is that slow too?
>>>>>>>>>
Yes. Not noticeably, but the module section is very small, and there is
little data in the Db to evaluate query run-time, etc.

You haven't yet really made a case for suspecting the HDD. You have only
mentioned that it is a particular Access 2003 .mdb file which is slow - and
other (unspecified) small problems. Is the PC running slow with ALL
programs? Is it slow to boot? How about scandisk (or 'Error checking' if
you are running XP)? Does that tell you anything?

What happens if you just open Access alone (no data) - is that slow too?

Why not try Task Manager (Ctrl+Alt+Del) and see if you can identify any
'extra' overheads when opening or rather executing queries in Access.

> However, if I ... install it (the database?) on a PC with much lower
> capabilities, it functions just fine!

'Install'? - I assume you mean 'open' the same .mdb file on another PC
running Access 2003

Have you tried running the Northwind Sample Database? - Is that slow too?

> Perhaps the re-install is not equivalent to a reformat, and I should first
> try the Maxtor utility (for my XP system) for a low level format, and not
> worry about a full disc cleaning.

I think you'll find that a Low Level Format is effectively 'a full disk
clean'. It's not exactly 'selective' - it'll wipe the lot, requiring a full
install etc.

>> Your comments sound convincing, but I remain confused. My particular
>[quoted text clipped - 49 lines]
>>>I had run the manufacturer's test utility such as Maxtor's PowerMax or
>>>Seagate's SeaTools and the utility had made this recommendation.

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atlantis43 via WindowsKB. · External Since: Apr 04, 2007 Posts: 6

Mike:
Sadly Win Me doesn't have an Event Log such as is in XP where you
>could check if the system was having problems accessing the hard disk.
>>>>>>>>>>>
I'll check this on my system that is running XP (if I can find what you mean
Yes, system has been defragged, but to no avail

Thanks, Richard

Mike M wrote:
>Thanks Mart for stepping in. I was rather busy elsewhere for most of
>yesterday afternoon and evening so didn't have a chance to check for any
>follow-up from Richard.
>
>Richard,
>
>As Mart has said a slow application doesn't necessarily mean that the disk
>is bad. Sadly Win Me doesn't have an Event Log such as is in XP where you
>could check if the system was having problems accessing the hard disk. I
>can't recall whether you have run chkdsk or not or whether this reports
>that you have any bad blocks or not. Even so with modern hard disks with
>SMART, mapping out of bad disk blocks tends to be done on the fly by the
>disk itself and the operating system and chkdsk will normally only come in
>to play when all of the spare hardware blocks have been consumed.
>
>Since we are talking Win Me you are using FAT32 as the filing system on
>the hard drive. FAT32 is far more susceptible to slow down if fragmented
>than say NTFS filing system which is used by most systems running XP.
>Have you therefore recently defragged the drive?
>> You haven't yet really made a case for suspecting the HDD. You have
>> only mentioned that it is a particular Access 2003 .mdb file which is
>[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>> disk clean'. It's not exactly 'selective' - it'll wipe the lot,
>> requiring a full install etc.

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"cquirke · External Since: Mar 06, 2005 Posts: 395

On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 21:12:37 GMT, "atlantis43 via WindowsKB.com"
>CQuirke;

Hi!

>Your links are very interesting, but the specific troublesome problem seems
>to elude 'figuring out'.

OK...

>Generally, the year-old PC with lots of ram & free memory & cache seems to
>work extremely slowly, predominantly in MSAccess2003.

Ahh... is there an av that is scanning "document files" while they are
in use? It's appropriate to do so, given that MS broke the data/code
distinction by allowing macros and scripts to be embedded in these
"data" files, and having these run automatically... but you can
imagine the performance impact of having a large Access database being
scanned every time it is updated or even <cough> accessed.

>The shop failed to write zeros to my WD hard drive before they re-installed,
>even though WD recommends that this should be done before any OS re-install,
>so I think that this is a good place to start (in spite of your link).

I don't think that's likely to be relevant, as long as the HD was
file-system-formatted at the time.

What will trully clobber NTFS performance is if the NTFS volume is
mis-aligned so that it is created with 512-byte clusters. That can
happen if originally partitioned for FATxx and then converted to NTFS.

I'm using BING (www.bootitng.com) for partitioning, and that has a
setting to "align for NTFS" that I use even for FATxx volumes. Old
versions used to ask "do you intend converting to NTFS?".

>------------------------- ---- --- -- - - - -
I'm on a ten-year lunch break
>------------------------- ---- --- -- - - - -