Question_concerning_managing_â€œCo

RichG · External Since: Jul 05, 2007 Posts: 11

My system is configured as followsâ€¦

OS = Windows Vista Business
Internal Disk (drive C) = 120Gb
External Disk (drive H) = 500Gb (USB-connected)

I ran my first â€œComplete System backupâ€ of my system on July 11, and chose
to store the backup files on my external disk (drive H). The backup
completed successfully, and I verified that the system created a 37Gb VHD
file along with a few other very small files. I then verified that the
amount of free space remaining on my external drive was ~37Gb less than I
previously had free.

So far, so goodâ€¦

I installed two other software applications on my system (Microsoft Visio
2007 and Microsoft Project 2007), and I launched another complete system
backup this weekend. The backup completed successfully, and I verified that
the system created a new 25Gb VHD file along with a few other very small
files.

I expected to see this new 25Gb VHD file IN ADDITION to the previous 37Gb
VHD file from the July 11 backup, and was surprised to find that the previous
37Gb file appears to be MISSING. At least, I cannot find the file in the
folder where it previously existed.

I checked the free space on my external H drive, and found that I have ~
25Gb less free space than I had before. It is as if the 37Gb file is still
on the drive somewhere, but I cannot find it. When I launch the backup
program, it states that the last complete backup was run this weekend, and it
also seems to indicate that a previous backup does exist, but it does not
list it my name or date.

I see from the documentation that a complete system backup will run so long
as enough free space exists, and that it will automatically delete older
backups (oldest first) as necessary to insure that free space is available.

I use this external drive to store other information in addition to complete
system backups, and I need to insure that I always have enough free space to
handle my needs. My plan was to run a complete system backup whenever my
system configuration changes significantly, or every month or so â€“ whichever
comes first. I planned on keeping perhaps 3-4 complete system backups on my
external drive, and to delete the older backups as necessary.

NOTE: I am generally aware of volume shadow copy and how it can reduce the
amount of free space on a volume, but Iâ€™m not sure if this is compounding my
issue or not.

QUESTION:

Can anyone tell me (or does documentation exist that explains) how to manage
complete system backup files? How does one manage these backups?

Any assistance is appreciated...

--
RichG

Eduardo Laureano [MSFT] · External Since: Jul 30, 2007 Posts: 15

Hi Rich,

your assumptions are mostly correct. VSS is turned on at the
destination where your Complete PC Backups are being saved. At the time you
created your 2nd backup, block level data representing your 1st backup was
saved to shadow copy. Therefore the space hit that you are seeing.

For instance, if you take a 3rd backup, without changing much on your
system, you'll see that the space usage should grow only by the amount of
changed blocks between the time you took your 2nd and 3rd backups.

If you are concerned about the disk space allocation where your backups are
being saved, I recommend using Disk Cleanup. From there you can delete all
older shadow copies, but the most recent one. Be aware that this means to
consequently loose access to older backups.

Disk Cleanup -> Files from all users on this computer -> Select volume where
backups are being saved -> More Options -> System Restore and Shadow
Copies -> Clean up ...

Eduardo

"RichG" <RichG DeleteThis @discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:6A23BAE1-4554-49AF-8D34-126F3D424EBC@microsoft.com...
> My system is configured as followsâ€¦
>
> OS = Windows Vista Business
> Internal Disk (drive C) = 120Gb
> External Disk (drive H) = 500Gb (USB-connected)
>
> I ran my first â€œComplete System backupâ€ of my system on July 11, and chose
> to store the backup files on my external disk (drive H). The backup
> completed successfully, and I verified that the system created a 37Gb VHD
> file along with a few other very small files. I then verified that the
> amount of free space remaining on my external drive was ~37Gb less than I
> previously had free.
>
> So far, so goodâ€¦
>
> I installed two other software applications on my system (Microsoft Visio
> 2007 and Microsoft Project 2007), and I launched another complete system
> backup this weekend. The backup completed successfully, and I verified
> that
> the system created a new 25Gb VHD file along with a few other very small
> files.
>
> I expected to see this new 25Gb VHD file IN ADDITION to the previous 37Gb
> VHD file from the July 11 backup, and was surprised to find that the
> previous
> 37Gb file appears to be MISSING. At least, I cannot find the file in the
> folder where it previously existed.
>
> I checked the free space on my external H drive, and found that I have ~
> 25Gb less free space than I had before. It is as if the 37Gb file is
> still
> on the drive somewhere, but I cannot find it. When I launch the backup
> program, it states that the last complete backup was run this weekend, and
> it
> also seems to indicate that a previous backup does exist, but it does not
> list it my name or date.
>
> I see from the documentation that a complete system backup will run so
> long
> as enough free space exists, and that it will automatically delete older
> backups (oldest first) as necessary to insure that free space is
> available.
>
> I use this external drive to store other information in addition to
> complete
> system backups, and I need to insure that I always have enough free space
> to
> handle my needs. My plan was to run a complete system backup whenever my
> system configuration changes significantly, or every month or so â€“
> whichever
> comes first. I planned on keeping perhaps 3-4 complete system backups on
> my
> external drive, and to delete the older backups as necessary.
>
> NOTE: I am generally aware of volume shadow copy and how it can reduce
> the
> amount of free space on a volume, but Iâ€™m not sure if this is compounding
> my
> issue or not.
>
> QUESTION:
>
> Can anyone tell me (or does documentation exist that explains) how to
> manage
> complete system backup files? How does one manage these backups?
>
> Any assistance is appreciated...
>
> --
> RichG

RichG · External Since: Jul 05, 2007 Posts: 11

Eduardo:

Thank you very much for the clarification â€“ this makes sense.

If I understand your reply, my second backup is not a COMPLETE system backup
by itselfâ€¦it is only the difference between my original backup and my current
state.

If so, it would seem to indicate that both of the VHD files (original and
current) in order to accomplish a complete system restore.

Is this correct?

Is there any documentation on the Microsoft WEB site that fully explains
this from a technical perspective?

--
RichG

"Eduardo Laureano [MSFT]" wrote:

> Hi Rich,
>
> your assumptions are mostly correct. VSS is turned on at the
> destination where your Complete PC Backups are being saved. At the time you
> created your 2nd backup, block level data representing your 1st backup was
> saved to shadow copy. Therefore the space hit that you are seeing.
>
> For instance, if you take a 3rd backup, without changing much on your
> system, you'll see that the space usage should grow only by the amount of
> changed blocks between the time you took your 2nd and 3rd backups.
>
> If you are concerned about the disk space allocation where your backups are
> being saved, I recommend using Disk Cleanup. From there you can delete all
> older shadow copies, but the most recent one. Be aware that this means to
> consequently loose access to older backups.
>
> Disk Cleanup -> Files from all users on this computer -> Select volume where
> backups are being saved -> More Options -> System Restore and Shadow
> Copies -> Clean up ...
>
> Eduardo
>
>
> "RichG" <RichG.DeleteThis@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:6A23BAE1-4554-49AF-8D34-126F3D424EBC@microsoft.com...
> > My system is configured as followsâ€¦
> >
> > OS = Windows Vista Business
> > Internal Disk (drive C) = 120Gb
> > External Disk (drive H) = 500Gb (USB-connected)
> >
> > I ran my first â€œComplete System backupâ€ of my system on July 11, and chose
> > to store the backup files on my external disk (drive H). The backup
> > completed successfully, and I verified that the system created a 37Gb VHD
> > file along with a few other very small files. I then verified that the
> > amount of free space remaining on my external drive was ~37Gb less than I
> > previously had free.
> >
> > So far, so goodâ€¦
> >
> > I installed two other software applications on my system (Microsoft Visio
> > 2007 and Microsoft Project 2007), and I launched another complete system
> > backup this weekend. The backup completed successfully, and I verified
> > that
> > the system created a new 25Gb VHD file along with a few other very small
> > files.
> >
> > I expected to see this new 25Gb VHD file IN ADDITION to the previous 37Gb
> > VHD file from the July 11 backup, and was surprised to find that the
> > previous
> > 37Gb file appears to be MISSING. At least, I cannot find the file in the
> > folder where it previously existed.
> >
> > I checked the free space on my external H drive, and found that I have ~
> > 25Gb less free space than I had before. It is as if the 37Gb file is
> > still
> > on the drive somewhere, but I cannot find it. When I launch the backup
> > program, it states that the last complete backup was run this weekend, and
> > it
> > also seems to indicate that a previous backup does exist, but it does not
> > list it my name or date.
> >
> > I see from the documentation that a complete system backup will run so
> > long
> > as enough free space exists, and that it will automatically delete older
> > backups (oldest first) as necessary to insure that free space is
> > available.
> >
> > I use this external drive to store other information in addition to
> > complete
> > system backups, and I need to insure that I always have enough free space
> > to
> > handle my needs. My plan was to run a complete system backup whenever my
> > system configuration changes significantly, or every month or so â€“
> > whichever
> > comes first. I planned on keeping perhaps 3-4 complete system backups on
> > my
> > external drive, and to delete the older backups as necessary.
> >
> > NOTE: I am generally aware of volume shadow copy and how it can reduce
> > the
> > amount of free space on a volume, but Iâ€™m not sure if this is compounding
> > my
> > issue or not.
> >
> > QUESTION:
> >
> > Can anyone tell me (or does documentation exist that explains) how to
> > manage
> > complete system backup files? How does one manage these backups?
> >
> > Any assistance is appreciated...
> >
> > --
> > RichG
>

Eduardo Laureano [MSFT] · External Since: Jul 30, 2007 Posts: 15

The concept is correct, the order is backwards. Once you take your 2nd
backup, your first backup is now only a set of block level differences
between the 1st and 2nd. This behavior goes one for subsequent backups.
Backup n is stored in the VHD, backup n-1 is stored as a set of block level
differences (between n and n-1) in a shadow copy. And so on ...

You should typically only have one VHD per volume being backed up. All other
previous backups are saved in terms of shadow copies.

On the web you can get information about VSS in general. There's a TechNet
article coming that will address a lot of the internal behaviors around the
backup features, but this might take over a month. meanwhile you can see
some of it on this presentation:
http://www.microsoft.com/emea/itsshowtime/sessionh.aspx?videoid=219

Eduardo

"RichG" <RichG.TakeThisOut@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:567738F2-3C59-405E-9064-FAA6EE7FFE6C@microsoft.com...
> Eduardo:
>
> Thank you very much for the clarification â€“ this makes sense.
>
> If I understand your reply, my second backup is not a COMPLETE system
> backup
> by itselfâ€¦it is only the difference between my original backup and my
> current
> state.
>
> If so, it would seem to indicate that both of the VHD files (original and
> current) in order to accomplish a complete system restore.
>
> Is this correct?
>
> Is there any documentation on the Microsoft WEB site that fully explains
> this from a technical perspective?
>
> --
> RichG
>
>
> "Eduardo Laureano [MSFT]" wrote:
>
>> Hi Rich,
>>
>> your assumptions are mostly correct. VSS is turned on at the
>> destination where your Complete PC Backups are being saved. At the time
>> you
>> created your 2nd backup, block level data representing your 1st backup
>> was
>> saved to shadow copy. Therefore the space hit that you are seeing.
>>
>> For instance, if you take a 3rd backup, without changing much on your
>> system, you'll see that the space usage should grow only by the amount of
>> changed blocks between the time you took your 2nd and 3rd backups.
>>
>> If you are concerned about the disk space allocation where your backups
>> are
>> being saved, I recommend using Disk Cleanup. From there you can delete
>> all
>> older shadow copies, but the most recent one. Be aware that this means to
>> consequently loose access to older backups.
>>
>> Disk Cleanup -> Files from all users on this computer -> Select volume
>> where
>> backups are being saved -> More Options -> System Restore and Shadow
>> Copies -> Clean up ...
>>
>> Eduardo
>>
>>
>> "RichG" <RichG.TakeThisOut@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
>> news:6A23BAE1-4554-49AF-8D34-126F3D424EBC@microsoft.com...
>> > My system is configured as followsâ€¦
>> >
>> > OS = Windows Vista Business
>> > Internal Disk (drive C) = 120Gb
>> > External Disk (drive H) = 500Gb (USB-connected)
>> >
>> > I ran my first â€œComplete System backupâ€ of my system on July 11, and
>> > chose
>> > to store the backup files on my external disk (drive H). The backup
>> > completed successfully, and I verified that the system created a 37Gb
>> > VHD
>> > file along with a few other very small files. I then verified that the
>> > amount of free space remaining on my external drive was ~37Gb less than
>> > I
>> > previously had free.
>> >
>> > So far, so goodâ€¦
>> >
>> > I installed two other software applications on my system (Microsoft
>> > Visio
>> > 2007 and Microsoft Project 2007), and I launched another complete
>> > system
>> > backup this weekend. The backup completed successfully, and I verified
>> > that
>> > the system created a new 25Gb VHD file along with a few other very
>> > small
>> > files.
>> >
>> > I expected to see this new 25Gb VHD file IN ADDITION to the previous
>> > 37Gb
>> > VHD file from the July 11 backup, and was surprised to find that the
>> > previous
>> > 37Gb file appears to be MISSING. At least, I cannot find the file in
>> > the
>> > folder where it previously existed.
>> >
>> > I checked the free space on my external H drive, and found that I have
>> > ~
>> > 25Gb less free space than I had before. It is as if the 37Gb file is
>> > still
>> > on the drive somewhere, but I cannot find it. When I launch the backup
>> > program, it states that the last complete backup was run this weekend,
>> > and
>> > it
>> > also seems to indicate that a previous backup does exist, but it does
>> > not
>> > list it my name or date.
>> >
>> > I see from the documentation that a complete system backup will run so
>> > long
>> > as enough free space exists, and that it will automatically delete
>> > older
>> > backups (oldest first) as necessary to insure that free space is
>> > available.
>> >
>> > I use this external drive to store other information in addition to
>> > complete
>> > system backups, and I need to insure that I always have enough free
>> > space
>> > to
>> > handle my needs. My plan was to run a complete system backup whenever
>> > my
>> > system configuration changes significantly, or every month or so â€“
>> > whichever
>> > comes first. I planned on keeping perhaps 3-4 complete system backups
>> > on
>> > my
>> > external drive, and to delete the older backups as necessary.
>> >
>> > NOTE: I am generally aware of volume shadow copy and how it can reduce
>> > the
>> > amount of free space on a volume, but Iâ€™m not sure if this is
>> > compounding
>> > my
>> > issue or not.
>> >
>> > QUESTION:
>> >
>> > Can anyone tell me (or does documentation exist that explains) how to
>> > manage
>> > complete system backup files? How does one manage these backups?
>> >
>> > Any assistance is appreciated...
>> >
>> > --
>> > RichG
>>

RichG · External Since: Jul 05, 2007 Posts: 11

Eduardo:

Thank you again for your reply - it is much appreciated.

Letâ€™s assume that I run the following complete system backupsâ€¦

1st â€“ July 1
2nd â€“ August 1
3rd â€“ September 1

As I understand it, I should see only one VHD file, but the other
information (the delta difference) is stored as volume shadow copy data. If
I correctly understand your response, this would seem to indicate that a disk
cleanup should never be run because the erasure of ANY of the shadow copy VHD
information will prevent a complete system restore.

Is this correct?

If my assumption is correct (that disk cleanup cannot be run), I can see a
disk space management issue as the months go by and my external disk becomes
full. Again â€“ bear in mind that my external drive is used to store a variety
of data, not just complete system backup data.

Before I learned how complete system backup and VSS works, my plan was to
run a complete system backup once per month (or whenever there was a
significant system change), and to keep 2-3 months of system backups
available at any one time. I had planned to manually delete the older
backups as required to manage my free disk space.

Can you recommend a best practice methodology here?

Is there a simple method of managing this space so that it does not keep
growing as the months go by?

--
RichG

"Eduardo Laureano [MSFT]" wrote:

> The concept is correct, the order is backwards. Once you take your 2nd
> backup, your first backup is now only a set of block level differences
> between the 1st and 2nd. This behavior goes one for subsequent backups.
> Backup n is stored in the VHD, backup n-1 is stored as a set of block level
> differences (between n and n-1) in a shadow copy. And so on ...
>
> You should typically only have one VHD per volume being backed up. All other
> previous backups are saved in terms of shadow copies.
>
> On the web you can get information about VSS in general. There's a TechNet
> article coming that will address a lot of the internal behaviors around the
> backup features, but this might take over a month. meanwhile you can see
> some of it on this presentation:
> http://www.microsoft.com/emea/itsshowtime/sessionh.aspx?videoid=219
>
> Eduardo
>
> "RichG" <RichG RemoveThis @discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:567738F2-3C59-405E-9064-FAA6EE7FFE6C@microsoft.com...
> > Eduardo:
> >
> > Thank you very much for the clarification â€“ this makes sense.
> >
> > If I understand your reply, my second backup is not a COMPLETE system
> > backup
> > by itselfâ€¦it is only the difference between my original backup and my
> > current
> > state.
> >
> > If so, it would seem to indicate that both of the VHD files (original and
> > current) in order to accomplish a complete system restore.
> >
> > Is this correct?
> >
> > Is there any documentation on the Microsoft WEB site that fully explains
> > this from a technical perspective?
> >
> > --
> > RichG
> >
> >
> > "Eduardo Laureano [MSFT]" wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Rich,
> >>
> >> your assumptions are mostly correct. VSS is turned on at the
> >> destination where your Complete PC Backups are being saved. At the time
> >> you
> >> created your 2nd backup, block level data representing your 1st backup
> >> was
> >> saved to shadow copy. Therefore the space hit that you are seeing.
> >>
> >> For instance, if you take a 3rd backup, without changing much on your
> >> system, you'll see that the space usage should grow only by the amount of
> >> changed blocks between the time you took your 2nd and 3rd backups.
> >>
> >> If you are concerned about the disk space allocation where your backups
> >> are
> >> being saved, I recommend using Disk Cleanup. From there you can delete
> >> all
> >> older shadow copies, but the most recent one. Be aware that this means to
> >> consequently loose access to older backups.
> >>
> >> Disk Cleanup -> Files from all users on this computer -> Select volume
> >> where
> >> backups are being saved -> More Options -> System Restore and Shadow
> >> Copies -> Clean up ...
> >>
> >> Eduardo
> >>
> >>
> >> "RichG" <RichG RemoveThis @discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> >> news:6A23BAE1-4554-49AF-8D34-126F3D424EBC@microsoft.com...
> >> > My system is configured as followsâ€¦
> >> >
> >> > OS = Windows Vista Business
> >> > Internal Disk (drive C) = 120Gb
> >> > External Disk (drive H) = 500Gb (USB-connected)
> >> >
> >> > I ran my first â€œComplete System backupâ€ of my system on July 11, and
> >> > chose
> >> > to store the backup files on my external disk (drive H). The backup
> >> > completed successfully, and I verified that the system created a 37Gb
> >> > VHD
> >> > file along with a few other very small files. I then verified that the
> >> > amount of free space remaining on my external drive was ~37Gb less than
> >> > I
> >> > previously had free.
> >> >
> >> > So far, so goodâ€¦
> >> >
> >> > I installed two other software applications on my system (Microsoft
> >> > Visio
> >> > 2007 and Microsoft Project 2007), and I launched another complete
> >> > system
> >> > backup this weekend. The backup completed successfully, and I verified
> >> > that
> >> > the system created a new 25Gb VHD file along with a few other very
> >> > small
> >> > files.
> >> >
> >> > I expected to see this new 25Gb VHD file IN ADDITION to the previous
> >> > 37Gb
> >> > VHD file from the July 11 backup, and was surprised to find that the
> >> > previous
> >> > 37Gb file appears to be MISSING. At least, I cannot find the file in
> >> > the
> >> > folder where it previously existed.
> >> >
> >> > I checked the free space on my external H drive, and found that I have
> >> > ~
> >> > 25Gb less free space than I had before. It is as if the 37Gb file is
> >> > still
> >> > on the drive somewhere, but I cannot find it. When I launch the backup
> >> > program, it states that the last complete backup was run this weekend,
> >> > and
> >> > it
> >> > also seems to indicate that a previous backup does exist, but it does
> >> > not
> >> > list it my name or date.
> >> >
> >> > I see from the documentation that a complete system backup will run so
> >> > long
> >> > as enough free space exists, and that it will automatically delete
> >> > older
> >> > backups (oldest first) as necessary to insure that free space is
> >> > available.
> >> >
> >> > I use this external drive to store other information in addition to
> >> > complete
> >> > system backups, and I need to insure that I always have enough free
> >> > space
> >> > to
> >> > handle my needs. My plan was to run a complete system backup whenever
> >> > my
> >> > system configuration changes significantly, or every month or so â€“
> >> > whichever
> >> > comes first. I planned on keeping perhaps 3-4 complete system backups
> >> > on
> >> > my
> >> > external drive, and to delete the older backups as necessary.
> >> >
> >> > NOTE: I am generally aware of volume shadow copy and how it can reduce
> >> > the
> >> > amount of free space on a volume, but Iâ€™m not sure if this is
> >> > compounding
> >> > my
> >> > issue or not.
> >> >
> >> > QUESTION:
> >> >
> >> > Can anyone tell me (or does documentation exist that explains) how to
> >> > manage
> >> > complete system backup files? How does one manage these backups?
> >> >
> >> > Any assistance is appreciated...
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > RichG
> >>
>

Eduardo Laureano [MSFT] · External Since: Jul 30, 2007 Posts: 15

Hi Rick, you illustrated clearly the gist of it. Using disk cleanup does
delete older backups indeed, but always keep the most recent intact. But a
lot of users can part with only keeping the most recent backup.

Recommendations are hard because it depends on usage pattern and amount of
storage available. But roughly you can take a full system backup every
couple months and have weekly file backups. If you want to keep one full
system backup safe (to not be deleted as space becomes needed - let's say
your backup from when your machine was fully configured), you can store the
VHD(s) in a separate partition from your usual backup. If you don't take
further backups in the archive partitions, your backup will never "age out".

Eduardo
--
This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
--

"RichG" <RichG.RemoveThis@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:C084377C-92CE-4692-B73B-ABFBCDD91B4C@microsoft.com...
> Eduardo:
>
> Thank you again for your reply - it is much appreciated.
>
> Letâ€™s assume that I run the following complete system backupsâ€¦
>
> 1st â€“ July 1
> 2nd â€“ August 1
> 3rd â€“ September 1
>
> As I understand it, I should see only one VHD file, but the other
> information (the delta difference) is stored as volume shadow copy data.
> If
> I correctly understand your response, this would seem to indicate that a
> disk
> cleanup should never be run because the erasure of ANY of the shadow copy
> VHD
> information will prevent a complete system restore.
>
> Is this correct?
>
> If my assumption is correct (that disk cleanup cannot be run), I can see a
> disk space management issue as the months go by and my external disk
> becomes
> full. Again â€“ bear in mind that my external drive is used to store a
> variety
> of data, not just complete system backup data.
>
> Before I learned how complete system backup and VSS works, my plan was to
> run a complete system backup once per month (or whenever there was a
> significant system change), and to keep 2-3 months of system backups
> available at any one time. I had planned to manually delete the older
> backups as required to manage my free disk space.
>
> Can you recommend a best practice methodology here?
>
> Is there a simple method of managing this space so that it does not keep
> growing as the months go by?
>
> --
> RichG
>
>
> "Eduardo Laureano [MSFT]" wrote:
>
>> The concept is correct, the order is backwards. Once you take your 2nd
>> backup, your first backup is now only a set of block level differences
>> between the 1st and 2nd. This behavior goes one for subsequent backups.
>> Backup n is stored in the VHD, backup n-1 is stored as a set of block
>> level
>> differences (between n and n-1) in a shadow copy. And so on ...
>>
>> You should typically only have one VHD per volume being backed up. All
>> other
>> previous backups are saved in terms of shadow copies.
>>
>> On the web you can get information about VSS in general. There's a
>> TechNet
>> article coming that will address a lot of the internal behaviors around
>> the
>> backup features, but this might take over a month. meanwhile you can see
>> some of it on this presentation:
>> http://www.microsoft.com/emea/itsshowtime/sessionh.aspx?videoid=219
>>
>> Eduardo
>>
>> "RichG" <RichG.RemoveThis@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
>> news:567738F2-3C59-405E-9064-FAA6EE7FFE6C@microsoft.com...
>> > Eduardo:
>> >
>> > Thank you very much for the clarification â€“ this makes sense.
>> >
>> > If I understand your reply, my second backup is not a COMPLETE system
>> > backup
>> > by itselfâ€¦it is only the difference between my original backup and my
>> > current
>> > state.
>> >
>> > If so, it would seem to indicate that both of the VHD files (original
>> > and
>> > current) in order to accomplish a complete system restore.
>> >
>> > Is this correct?
>> >
>> > Is there any documentation on the Microsoft WEB site that fully
>> > explains
>> > this from a technical perspective?
>> >
>> > --
>> > RichG
>> >
>> >
>> > "Eduardo Laureano [MSFT]" wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hi Rich,
>> >>
>> >> your assumptions are mostly correct. VSS is turned on at the
>> >> destination where your Complete PC Backups are being saved. At the
>> >> time
>> >> you
>> >> created your 2nd backup, block level data representing your 1st backup
>> >> was
>> >> saved to shadow copy. Therefore the space hit that you are seeing.
>> >>
>> >> For instance, if you take a 3rd backup, without changing much on your
>> >> system, you'll see that the space usage should grow only by the amount
>> >> of
>> >> changed blocks between the time you took your 2nd and 3rd backups.
>> >>
>> >> If you are concerned about the disk space allocation where your
>> >> backups
>> >> are
>> >> being saved, I recommend using Disk Cleanup. From there you can delete
>> >> all
>> >> older shadow copies, but the most recent one. Be aware that this means
>> >> to
>> >> consequently loose access to older backups.
>> >>
>> >> Disk Cleanup -> Files from all users on this computer -> Select volume
>> >> where
>> >> backups are being saved -> More Options -> System Restore and Shadow
>> >> Copies -> Clean up ...
>> >>
>> >> Eduardo
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "RichG" <RichG.RemoveThis@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
>> >> news:6A23BAE1-4554-49AF-8D34-126F3D424EBC@microsoft.com...
>> >> > My system is configured as followsâ€¦
>> >> >
>> >> > OS = Windows Vista Business
>> >> > Internal Disk (drive C) = 120Gb
>> >> > External Disk (drive H) = 500Gb (USB-connected)
>> >> >
>> >> > I ran my first â€œComplete System backupâ€ of my system on July 11, and
>> >> > chose
>> >> > to store the backup files on my external disk (drive H). The backup
>> >> > completed successfully, and I verified that the system created a
>> >> > 37Gb
>> >> > VHD
>> >> > file along with a few other very small files. I then verified that
>> >> > the
>> >> > amount of free space remaining on my external drive was ~37Gb less
>> >> > than
>> >> > I
>> >> > previously had free.
>> >> >
>> >> > So far, so goodâ€¦
>> >> >
>> >> > I installed two other software applications on my system (Microsoft
>> >> > Visio
>> >> > 2007 and Microsoft Project 2007), and I launched another complete
>> >> > system
>> >> > backup this weekend. The backup completed successfully, and I
>> >> > verified
>> >> > that
>> >> > the system created a new 25Gb VHD file along with a few other very
>> >> > small
>> >> > files.
>> >> >
>> >> > I expected to see this new 25Gb VHD file IN ADDITION to the previous
>> >> > 37Gb
>> >> > VHD file from the July 11 backup, and was surprised to find that the
>> >> > previous
>> >> > 37Gb file appears to be MISSING. At least, I cannot find the file
>> >> > in
>> >> > the
>> >> > folder where it previously existed.
>> >> >
>> >> > I checked the free space on my external H drive, and found that I
>> >> > have
>> >> > ~
>> >> > 25Gb less free space than I had before. It is as if the 37Gb file
>> >> > is
>> >> > still
>> >> > on the drive somewhere, but I cannot find it. When I launch the
>> >> > backup
>> >> > program, it states that the last complete backup was run this
>> >> > weekend,
>> >> > and
>> >> > it
>> >> > also seems to indicate that a previous backup does exist, but it
>> >> > does
>> >> > not
>> >> > list it my name or date.
>> >> >
>> >> > I see from the documentation that a complete system backup will run
>> >> > so
>> >> > long
>> >> > as enough free space exists, and that it will automatically delete
>> >> > older
>> >> > backups (oldest first) as necessary to insure that free space is
>> >> > available.
>> >> >
>> >> > I use this external drive to store other information in addition to
>> >> > complete
>> >> > system backups, and I need to insure that I always have enough free
>> >> > space
>> >> > to
>> >> > handle my needs. My plan was to run a complete system backup
>> >> > whenever
>> >> > my
>> >> > system configuration changes significantly, or every month or so â€“
>> >> > whichever
>> >> > comes first. I planned on keeping perhaps 3-4 complete system
>> >> > backups
>> >> > on
>> >> > my
>> >> > external drive, and to delete the older backups as necessary.
>> >> >
>> >> > NOTE: I am generally aware of volume shadow copy and how it can
>> >> > reduce
>> >> > the
>> >> > amount of free space on a volume, but Iâ€™m not sure if this is
>> >> > compounding
>> >> > my
>> >> > issue or not.
>> >> >
>> >> > QUESTION:
>> >> >
>> >> > Can anyone tell me (or does documentation exist that explains) how
>> >> > to
>> >> > manage
>> >> > complete system backup files? How does one manage these backups?
>> >> >
>> >> > Any assistance is appreciated...
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > RichG
>> >>
>>

BillH · External Since: Mar 08, 2007 Posts: 4

"Eduardo Laureano [MSFT]" wrote:

> Hi Rick, you illustrated clearly the gist of it. Using disk cleanup does
> delete older backups indeed, but always keep the most recent intact. But a
> lot of users can part with only keeping the most recent backup.
>
> Recommendations are hard because it depends on usage pattern and amount of
> storage available. But roughly you can take a full system backup every
> couple months and have weekly file backups. If you want to keep one full
> system backup safe (to not be deleted as space becomes needed - let's say
> your backup from when your machine was fully configured), you can store the
> VHD(s) in a separate partition from your usual backup. If you don't take
> further backups in the archive partitions, your backup will never "age out".
>
>
> Eduardo

Excuse me for jumping in here, but I've been using Vista Ultimate's Backup
and Restore Center to back up my laptop to an external 500GB drive weekly
since April. I am now out of space on the external drive and I can't seem to
find any way of eliminating the redundancy of the file backups. I did the
recommended disk image backup and then set it up to backup files. I never
dreamed I'd run out of space so soon. Is there any way to trim down the file
backups to just the latest version or two? I tried the disk cleanup program,
but it said nothing about backup versions that I could see on either the C:
drive or the G: drive where the backups are.

Thanks,
Bill

RichG · External Since: Jul 05, 2007 Posts: 11

Bill:

This is exactly the scenario I am hoping to avoid. I appreciate the
information Eduardo has provided thus far, but I still do not see an easy way
to manage this space in an efficient manner. I hate to say this, but I am
now considering acquiring a 3rd party product such as Norton's Save & Restore
given the lack of admin & maintenance tools for Vista's Complete PC Backup &
file-based backup stragegy.

Eduardo - I look forward to your reply to Bill's query...

Rich
--
RichG

"BillH" wrote:

>
>
> "Eduardo Laureano [MSFT]" wrote:
>
> > Hi Rick, you illustrated clearly the gist of it. Using disk cleanup does
> > delete older backups indeed, but always keep the most recent intact. But a
> > lot of users can part with only keeping the most recent backup.
> >
> > Recommendations are hard because it depends on usage pattern and amount of
> > storage available. But roughly you can take a full system backup every
> > couple months and have weekly file backups. If you want to keep one full
> > system backup safe (to not be deleted as space becomes needed - let's say
> > your backup from when your machine was fully configured), you can store the
> > VHD(s) in a separate partition from your usual backup. If you don't take
> > further backups in the archive partitions, your backup will never "age out".
> >
> >
> > Eduardo
>
> Excuse me for jumping in here, but I've been using Vista Ultimate's Backup
> and Restore Center to back up my laptop to an external 500GB drive weekly
> since April. I am now out of space on the external drive and I can't seem to
> find any way of eliminating the redundancy of the file backups. I did the
> recommended disk image backup and then set it up to backup files. I never
> dreamed I'd run out of space so soon. Is there any way to trim down the file
> backups to just the latest version or two? I tried the disk cleanup program,
> but it said nothing about backup versions that I could see on either the C:
> drive or the G: drive where the backups are.
>
> Thanks,
> Bill
>

RichG · External Since: Jul 05, 2007 Posts: 11

I was just browsing the news group for other postings, and I saw the
following posting...

------------------------
Hi David,

Vista won't recognize a USB drive until the OS is fully loaded, it has (to
my knowledge) no provisions for loading from or to one during any point of
setup other than grabbing a driver for a RAID configuration or SATA drive.
Which, non coincidentally, may be the issue with the SATA drive. It may
require a manufacturer's driver to access it fully.

You mentioned you created these as network shares, were they attached
locally and mounted as such? or were they attached elsewhere on the network
and mapped?

--
Best of Luck,

Rick Rogers, aka "Nutcase" - Microsoft MVP
http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/
Windows help - www.rickrogers.org
My thoughts http://rick-mvp.blogspot.com
------------------------

Rick Rogers reply seems to indicate that a complete PC restore is not
possible from a USB-connected hard disk. If true, then my current backup
strategy is essentially useless (from a complete PC restore standpoint.

I did mention in my initial posting that my external 500Gb disk is USB
connected.

Can you please confirm - is it true that a Complete PC Restore is not
possible from a USB-connected external disk?
--
RichG

"Eduardo Laureano [MSFT]" wrote:

> Hi Rick, you illustrated clearly the gist of it. Using disk cleanup does
> delete older backups indeed, but always keep the most recent intact. But a
> lot of users can part with only keeping the most recent backup.
>
> Recommendations are hard because it depends on usage pattern and amount of
> storage available. But roughly you can take a full system backup every
> couple months and have weekly file backups. If you want to keep one full
> system backup safe (to not be deleted as space becomes needed - let's say
> your backup from when your machine was fully configured), you can store the
> VHD(s) in a separate partition from your usual backup. If you don't take
> further backups in the archive partitions, your backup will never "age out".
>
>
> Eduardo
> --
> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
> --
>
> "RichG" <RichG DeleteThis @discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:C084377C-92CE-4692-B73B-ABFBCDD91B4C@microsoft.com...
> > Eduardo:
> >
> > Thank you again for your reply - it is much appreciated.
> >
> > Letâ€™s assume that I run the following complete system backupsâ€¦
> >
> > 1st â€“ July 1
> > 2nd â€“ August 1
> > 3rd â€“ September 1
> >
> > As I understand it, I should see only one VHD file, but the other
> > information (the delta difference) is stored as volume shadow copy data.
> > If
> > I correctly understand your response, this would seem to indicate that a
> > disk
> > cleanup should never be run because the erasure of ANY of the shadow copy
> > VHD
> > information will prevent a complete system restore.
> >
> > Is this correct?
> >
> > If my assumption is correct (that disk cleanup cannot be run), I can see a
> > disk space management issue as the months go by and my external disk
> > becomes
> > full. Again â€“ bear in mind that my external drive is used to store a
> > variety
> > of data, not just complete system backup data.
> >
> > Before I learned how complete system backup and VSS works, my plan was to
> > run a complete system backup once per month (or whenever there was a
> > significant system change), and to keep 2-3 months of system backups
> > available at any one time. I had planned to manually delete the older
> > backups as required to manage my free disk space.
> >
> > Can you recommend a best practice methodology here?
> >
> > Is there a simple method of managing this space so that it does not keep
> > growing as the months go by?
> >
> > --
> > RichG
> >
> >
> > "Eduardo Laureano [MSFT]" wrote:
> >
> >> The concept is correct, the order is backwards. Once you take your 2nd
> >> backup, your first backup is now only a set of block level differences
> >> between the 1st and 2nd. This behavior goes one for subsequent backups.
> >> Backup n is stored in the VHD, backup n-1 is stored as a set of block
> >> level
> >> differences (between n and n-1) in a shadow copy. And so on ...
> >>
> >> You should typically only have one VHD per volume being backed up. All
> >> other
> >> previous backups are saved in terms of shadow copies.
> >>
> >> On the web you can get information about VSS in general. There's a
> >> TechNet
> >> article coming that will address a lot of the internal behaviors around
> >> the
> >> backup features, but this might take over a month. meanwhile you can see
> >> some of it on this presentation:
> >> http://www.microsoft.com/emea/itsshowtime/sessionh.aspx?videoid=219
> >>
> >> Eduardo
> >>
> >> "RichG" <RichG DeleteThis @discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> >> news:567738F2-3C59-405E-9064-FAA6EE7FFE6C@microsoft.com...
> >> > Eduardo:
> >> >
> >> > Thank you very much for the clarification â€“ this makes sense.
> >> >
> >> > If I understand your reply, my second backup is not a COMPLETE system
> >> > backup
> >> > by itselfâ€¦it is only the difference between my original backup and my
> >> > current
> >> > state.
> >> >
> >> > If so, it would seem to indicate that both of the VHD files (original
> >> > and
> >> > current) in order to accomplish a complete system restore.
> >> >
> >> > Is this correct?
> >> >
> >> > Is there any documentation on the Microsoft WEB site that fully
> >> > explains
> >> > this from a technical perspective?
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > RichG
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > "Eduardo Laureano [MSFT]" wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Hi Rich,
> >> >>
> >> >> your assumptions are mostly correct. VSS is turned on at the
> >> >> destination where your Complete PC Backups are being saved. At the
> >> >> time
> >> >> you
> >> >> created your 2nd backup, block level data representing your 1st backup
> >> >> was
> >> >> saved to shadow copy. Therefore the space hit that you are seeing.
> >> >>
> >> >> For instance, if you take a 3rd backup, without changing much on your
> >> >> system, you'll see that the space usage should grow only by the amount
> >> >> of
> >> >> changed blocks between the time you took your 2nd and 3rd backups.
> >> >>
> >> >> If you are concerned about the disk space allocation where your
> >> >> backups
> >> >> are
> >> >> being saved, I recommend using Disk Cleanup. From there you can delete
> >> >> all
> >> >> older shadow copies, but the most recent one. Be aware that this means
> >> >> to
> >> >> consequently loose access to older backups.
> >> >>
> >> >> Disk Cleanup -> Files from all users on this computer -> Select volume
> >> >> where
> >> >> backups are being saved -> More Options -> System Restore and Shadow
> >> >> Copies -> Clean up ...
> >> >>
> >> >> Eduardo
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> "RichG" <RichG DeleteThis @discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> >> >> news:6A23BAE1-4554-49AF-8D34-126F3D424EBC@microsoft.com...
> >> >> > My system is configured as followsâ€¦
> >> >> >
> >> >> > OS = Windows Vista Business
> >> >> > Internal Disk (drive C) = 120Gb
> >> >> > External Disk (drive H) = 500Gb (USB-connected)
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I ran my first â€œComplete System backupâ€ of my system on July 11, and
> >> >> > chose
> >> >> > to store the backup files on my external disk (drive H). The backup
> >> >> > completed successfully, and I verified that the system created a
> >> >> > 37Gb
> >> >> > VHD
> >> >> > file along with a few other very small files. I then verified that
> >> >> > the
> >> >> > amount of free space remaining on my external drive was ~37Gb less
> >> >> > than
> >> >> > I
> >> >> > previously had free.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > So far, so goodâ€¦
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I installed two other software applications on my system (Microsoft
> >> >> > Visio
> >> >> > 2007 and Microsoft Project 2007), and I launched another complete
> >> >> > system
> >> >> > backup this weekend. The backup completed successfully, and I
> >> >> > verified
> >> >> > that
> >> >> > the system created a new 25Gb VHD file along with a few other very
> >> >> > small
> >> >> > files.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I expected to see this new 25Gb VHD file IN ADDITION to the previous
> >> >> > 37Gb
> >> >> > VHD file from the July 11 backup, and was surprised to find that the
> >> >> > previous
> >> >> > 37Gb file appears to be MISSING. At least, I cannot find the file
> >> >> > in
> >> >> > the
> >> >> > folder where it previously existed.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I checked the free space on my external H drive, and found that I
> >> >> > have
> >> >> > ~
> >> >> > 25Gb less free space than I had before. It is as if the 37Gb file
> >> >> > is
> >> >> > still
> >> >> > on the drive somewhere, but I cannot find it. When I launch the
> >> >> > backup
> >> >> > program, it states that the last complete backup was run this
> >> >> > weekend,
> >> >> > and
> >> >> > it
> >> >> > also seems to indicate that a previous backup does exist, but it
> >> >> > does
> >> >> > not
> >> >> > list it my name or date.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I see from the documentation that a complete system backup will run
> >> >> > so
> >> >> > long
> >> >> > as enough free space exists, and that it will automatically delete
> >> >> > older
> >> >> > backups (oldest first) as necessary to insure that free space is
> >> >> > available.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I use this external drive to store other information in addition to
> >> >> > complete
> >> >> > system backups, and I need to insure that I always have enough free
> >> >> > space
> >> >> > to
> >> >> > handle my needs. My plan was to run a complete system backup
> >> >> > whenever
> >> >> > my
> >> >> > system configuration changes significantly, or every month or so â€“
> >> >> > whichever
> >> >> > comes first. I planned on keeping perhaps 3-4 complete system
> >> >> > backups
> >> >> > on
> >> >> > my
> >> >> > external drive, and to delete the older backups as necessary.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > NOTE: I am generally aware of volume shadow copy and how it can
> >> >> > reduce
> >> >> > the
> >> >> > amount of free space on a volume, but Iâ€™m not sure if this is
> >> >> > compounding
> >> >> > my
> >> >> > issue or not.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > QUESTION:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Can anyone tell me (or does documentation exist that explains) how
> >> >> > to
> >> >> > manage
> >> >> > complete system backup files? How does one manage these backups?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Any assistance is appreciated...
> >> >> >
> >> >> > --
> >> >> > RichG
> >> >>
> >>
>