If you could travel to anywhere in the sci-fi film and TV

David Johnston · External Since: Jan 29, 2007 Posts: 168

On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 16:53:33 +0000 (UTC),
mstemper RemoveThis @walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:

>In article <hc1r5n$ofl$1@news.eternal-september.org>, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp RemoveThis @sgeinc.invalid.com> writes:
>>Howard S Shubs wrote:
>
>> If I go to the Vorkoverse, I do NOT want to visit
>>> Jackson's Hole, for instance. And the Arisia/Bosconian universe is
>>> right out.
>>
>> Actually, for the vast majority of the people in Civilization life was
>>very good and comfortable. We just get to watch the most "exciting" bits
>>in the books. Remember how very little of Civilization's GNP was devoted
>>to the war effort; for most people, most of the time, the War was far
>>away and not terribly important on their day-to-day lives.
>
>Yeah, for those of us safely here on Tellus. Things were a little tougher
>if your system of residence was close to the galactic rim, especially if
>it was on a line towards Lundmark's Nebula.

I never entirely bought the idea that the grandiose war they were
fighting was that cheap.

"Sea Wasp · External Since: Oct 21, 2009 Posts: 16

Michael Stemper wrote:
> In article <hc1r5n$ofl$1@news.eternal-september.org>, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp RemoveThis @sgeinc.invalid.com> writes:
>> Howard S Shubs wrote:
>
>> If I go to the Vorkoverse, I do NOT want to visit
>>> Jackson's Hole, for instance. And the Arisia/Bosconian universe is
>>> right out.
>> Actually, for the vast majority of the people in Civilization life was
>> very good and comfortable. We just get to watch the most "exciting" bits
>> in the books. Remember how very little of Civilization's GNP was devoted
>> to the war effort; for most people, most of the time, the War was far
>> away and not terribly important on their day-to-day lives.
>
> Yeah, for those of us safely here on Tellus. Things were a little tougher
> if your system of residence was close to the galactic rim, especially if
> it was on a line towards Lundmark's Nebula.

I was actually rather specifically NOT thinking of Tellus; remember the
reason the Sunbeam was invented. The war was not far away from the
Capital of Civilization; if Boskone could figure out a way to nail the
planet, they would.

One of the other pleasant-but-not-visited places, like dropping by
Chickladoria or Aldebaran, etc., might be better choices.

>
>> If I was going to see any of the "exciting" bits, well, I want
>> assurance that my mind is of at least the Third Stage of development, so
>> that minor inconveniences like the planet I'm on blowing up will not
>> seriously impede me.
>
> Any manner of things could happen to planets that were too close
> to the front.
>

Indeed. Which is why I would want to make sure that the planet blowing
up would not be a problem, if I had to see the Interesting events.

--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com

"Sea Wasp · External Since: Oct 21, 2009 Posts: 16

David Johnston wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 16:53:33 +0000 (UTC),
> mstemper DeleteThis @walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
>
>> In article <hc1r5n$ofl$1@news.eternal-september.org>, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp DeleteThis @sgeinc.invalid.com> writes:
>>> Howard S Shubs wrote:
>>> If I go to the Vorkoverse, I do NOT want to visit
>>>> Jackson's Hole, for instance. And the Arisia/Bosconian universe is
>>>> right out.
>>> Actually, for the vast majority of the people in Civilization life was
>>> very good and comfortable. We just get to watch the most "exciting" bits
>>> in the books. Remember how very little of Civilization's GNP was devoted
>>> to the war effort; for most people, most of the time, the War was far
>>> away and not terribly important on their day-to-day lives.
>> Yeah, for those of us safely here on Tellus. Things were a little tougher
>> if your system of residence was close to the galactic rim, especially if
>> it was on a line towards Lundmark's Nebula.
>
> I never entirely bought the idea that the grandiose war they were
> fighting was that cheap.

If it's stated as absolute fact by those who should know in the book,
you have to.

It's not that cheap, though. You have, literally, millions of planets
contributing to the war effort. Each individual planet doesn't feel the
bite, but the concentration of all their contributions is stupendous.

--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com

David Johnston · External Since: Jan 29, 2007 Posts: 168

On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 14:21:57 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
<seawasp DeleteThis @sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:

>David Johnston wrote:
>> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 16:53:33 +0000 (UTC),
>> mstemper DeleteThis @walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
>>
>>> In article <hc1r5n$ofl$1@news.eternal-september.org>, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp DeleteThis @sgeinc.invalid.com> writes:
>>>> Howard S Shubs wrote:
>>>> If I go to the Vorkoverse, I do NOT want to visit
>>>>> Jackson's Hole, for instance. And the Arisia/Bosconian universe is
>>>>> right out.
>>>> Actually, for the vast majority of the people in Civilization life was
>>>> very good and comfortable. We just get to watch the most "exciting" bits
>>>> in the books. Remember how very little of Civilization's GNP was devoted
>>>> to the war effort; for most people, most of the time, the War was far
>>>> away and not terribly important on their day-to-day lives.
>>> Yeah, for those of us safely here on Tellus. Things were a little tougher
>>> if your system of residence was close to the galactic rim, especially if
>>> it was on a line towards Lundmark's Nebula.
>>
>> I never entirely bought the idea that the grandiose war they were
>> fighting was that cheap.
>
> If it's stated as absolute fact by those who should know in the book,
>you have to.

Unless of course I feel inclined to reject the author's claim.

"Sea Wasp · External Since: Oct 21, 2009 Posts: 16

David Johnston wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 14:21:57 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
> <seawasp RemoveThis @sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>
>> David Johnston wrote:
>>> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 16:53:33 +0000 (UTC),
>>> mstemper RemoveThis @walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article <hc1r5n$ofl$1@news.eternal-september.org>, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp RemoveThis @sgeinc.invalid.com> writes:
>>>>> Howard S Shubs wrote:
>>>>> If I go to the Vorkoverse, I do NOT want to visit
>>>>>> Jackson's Hole, for instance. And the Arisia/Bosconian universe is
>>>>>> right out.
>>>>> Actually, for the vast majority of the people in Civilization life was
>>>>> very good and comfortable. We just get to watch the most "exciting" bits
>>>>> in the books. Remember how very little of Civilization's GNP was devoted
>>>>> to the war effort; for most people, most of the time, the War was far
>>>>> away and not terribly important on their day-to-day lives.
>>>> Yeah, for those of us safely here on Tellus. Things were a little tougher
>>>> if your system of residence was close to the galactic rim, especially if
>>>> it was on a line towards Lundmark's Nebula.
>>> I never entirely bought the idea that the grandiose war they were
>>> fighting was that cheap.
>> If it's stated as absolute fact by those who should know in the book,
>> you have to.
>
> Unless of course I feel inclined to reject the author's claim.

You can do that, but then you're arguing with God Almighty, and while
you can live in your own delusion, you'll be wrong.

--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com

Robert_Carnegie:_Fnord:_c · External Since: Oct 22, 2009 Posts: 11

Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> Michael Stemper wrote:
> > In article <hc1r5n$ofl$1@news.eternal-september.org>, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp.DeleteThis@sgeinc.invalid.com> writes:
> >> Howard S Shubs wrote:
> >
> >> If I go to the Vorkoverse, I do NOT want to visit
> >>> Jackson's Hole, for instance. And the Arisia/Bosconian universe is
> >>> right out.
> >> Actually, for the vast majority of the people in Civilization life was
> >> very good and comfortable. We just get to watch the most "exciting" bits
> >> in the books. Remember how very little of Civilization's GNP was devoted
> >> to the war effort; for most people, most of the time, the War was far
> >> away and not terribly important on their day-to-day lives.
> >
> > Yeah, for those of us safely here on Tellus. Things were a little tougher
> > if your system of residence was close to the galactic rim, especially if
> > it was on a line towards Lundmark's Nebula.
>
> I was actually rather specifically NOT thinking of Tellus; remember the
> reason the Sunbeam was invented. The war was not far away from the
> Capital of Civilization; if Boskone could figure out a way to nail the
> planet, they would.
>
> One of the other pleasant-but-not-visited places, like dropping by
> Chickladoria or Aldebaran, etc., might be better choices.

But where do you plan to buy drugs?

Is this the series where the graduating class from police college are
invited to sit down and supplied with booze and cigarettes and
appropriate-to-species equivalents while the boss lectures them about
the galaxy-wide drugs problem?

David Johnston · External Since: Jan 29, 2007 Posts: 168

On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 16:31:34 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
<seawasp.RemoveThis@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:

>David Johnston wrote:
>> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 14:21:57 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
>> <seawasp.RemoveThis@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>
>>> David Johnston wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 16:53:33 +0000 (UTC),
>>>> mstemper.RemoveThis@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In article <hc1r5n$ofl$1@news.eternal-september.org>, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp.RemoveThis@sgeinc.invalid.com> writes:
>>>>>> Howard S Shubs wrote:
>>>>>> If I go to the Vorkoverse, I do NOT want to visit
>>>>>>> Jackson's Hole, for instance. And the Arisia/Bosconian universe is
>>>>>>> right out.
>>>>>> Actually, for the vast majority of the people in Civilization life was
>>>>>> very good and comfortable. We just get to watch the most "exciting" bits
>>>>>> in the books. Remember how very little of Civilization's GNP was devoted
>>>>>> to the war effort; for most people, most of the time, the War was far
>>>>>> away and not terribly important on their day-to-day lives.
>>>>> Yeah, for those of us safely here on Tellus. Things were a little tougher
>>>>> if your system of residence was close to the galactic rim, especially if
>>>>> it was on a line towards Lundmark's Nebula.
>>>> I never entirely bought the idea that the grandiose war they were
>>>> fighting was that cheap.
>>> If it's stated as absolute fact by those who should know in the book,
>>> you have to.
>>
>> Unless of course I feel inclined to reject the author's claim.
>
> You can do that, but then you're arguing with God Almighty,

I don't live in the book. I just read it.

"Sea Wasp · External Since: Oct 21, 2009 Posts: 16

David Johnston wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 16:31:34 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
> <seawasp.DeleteThis@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>
>> David Johnston wrote:
>>> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 14:21:57 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
>>> <seawasp.DeleteThis@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> David Johnston wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 16:53:33 +0000 (UTC),
>>>>> mstemper.DeleteThis@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In article <hc1r5n$ofl$1@news.eternal-september.org>, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp.DeleteThis@sgeinc.invalid.com> writes:
>>>>>>> Howard S Shubs wrote:
>>>>>>> If I go to the Vorkoverse, I do NOT want to visit
>>>>>>>> Jackson's Hole, for instance. And the Arisia/Bosconian universe is
>>>>>>>> right out.
>>>>>>> Actually, for the vast majority of the people in Civilization life was
>>>>>>> very good and comfortable. We just get to watch the most "exciting" bits
>>>>>>> in the books. Remember how very little of Civilization's GNP was devoted
>>>>>>> to the war effort; for most people, most of the time, the War was far
>>>>>>> away and not terribly important on their day-to-day lives.
>>>>>> Yeah, for those of us safely here on Tellus. Things were a little tougher
>>>>>> if your system of residence was close to the galactic rim, especially if
>>>>>> it was on a line towards Lundmark's Nebula.
>>>>> I never entirely bought the idea that the grandiose war they were
>>>>> fighting was that cheap.
>>>> If it's stated as absolute fact by those who should know in the book,
>>>> you have to.
>>> Unless of course I feel inclined to reject the author's claim.
>> You can do that, but then you're arguing with God Almighty,
>
> I don't live in the book. I just read it.

Yes. But the world of the book is the author's creation. If I tell you
my book's hero has blond hair, you can try to deny that all you like,
but the hero's hair will remain blond. You have no control over the
facts within the writer's universe, whether you like them, or even think
they're believable, or not.

--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com

Will in New Haven · External Since: Oct 21, 2009 Posts: 6

On Oct 27, 7:26 pm, peachyashiepassion <exquisitepe....RemoveThis@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> David Johnston wrote:
> > On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 18:11:47 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
> > <seaw....RemoveThis@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>
> >> David Johnston wrote:
> >>> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 16:31:34 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
> >>> <seaw....RemoveThis@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>
> >>>> David Johnston wrote:
> >>>>> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 14:21:57 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
> >>>>> <seaw....RemoveThis@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>>> David Johnston wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 16:53:33 +0000 (UTC),
> >>>>>>> mstem....RemoveThis@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>> In article <hc1r5n$of...@news.eternal-september.org>, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seaw....RemoveThis@sgeinc.invalid.com> writes:
> >>>>>>>>> Howard S Shubs wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> If I go to the Vorkoverse, I do NOT want to visit
> >>>>>>>>>> Jackson's Hole, for instance. And the Arisia/Bosconian universe is
> >>>>>>>>>> right out.
> >>>>>>>>> Actually, for the vast majority of the people in Civilization life was
> >>>>>>>>> very good and comfortable. We just get to watch the most "exciting" bits
> >>>>>>>>> in the books. Remember how very little of Civilization's GNP was devoted
> >>>>>>>>> to the war effort; for most people, most of the time, the War was far
> >>>>>>>>> away and not terribly important on their day-to-day lives.
> >>>>>>>> Yeah, for those of us safely here on Tellus. Things were a little tougher
> >>>>>>>> if your system of residence was close to the galactic rim, especially if
> >>>>>>>> it was on a line towards Lundmark's Nebula.
> >>>>>>> I never entirely bought the idea that the grandiose war they were
> >>>>>>> fighting was that cheap.
> >>>>>> If it's stated as absolute fact by those who should know in the book,
> >>>>>> you have to.
> >>>>> Unless of course I feel inclined to reject the author's claim.
> >>>> You can do that, but then you're arguing with God Almighty,
> >>> I don't live in the book. I just read it.
> >> Yes. But the world of the book is the author's creation.. If I tell you
> >> my book's hero has blond hair, you can try to deny that all you like,
> >> but the hero's hair will remain blond.
>
> > And when you tell me the hero's hair is blond because every Japanese
> > person has blond hair, I will beg leave to disbelieve.
>
> You can if you like, but you've just ignored the setting of the
> book, the world building the author is doing, purely because you don't
> like it.
>
> Your call, but it means you are rewriting the world to suit yourself.

It's not as simple as all that. Sure, an author has a great deal of
freedom to say "X, Y, Z" happened but he can sabotage his own world-
building by making "X, Y, Z" very unlikely. Usually, I'm in favor of
reading the story and believing the events, so that you can experience
what the author intended. However, sometimes various details don't add
up.

I'm reading a book where one or two of the things we are told are hard
to believe. I'll discuss it when I've finished the book. It's much too
good not to finish.

The people who completely rebuild a book that crosses their
preconceptions can be annoying but an author has to make it seem
_possible_ within the context of the setup.

--
Will in New Haven

William December Starr · External Since: Jun 27, 2005 Posts: 124

In article <637744ef-5c07-463a-9f50-2309dd6ddc27.TakeThisOut@u13g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
Will in New Haven <bill.reich.TakeThisOut@taylorandfrancis.com> said:

> darwinist <darwin....TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I'd have choose luxury over excitement.
>
> I think most of us are choosing that but I wonder at this. Most of
> us in the modern western world _have_ by any reasonable standards,
> luxury.

Why settle for reasonable standards of luxury when unreasonable ones
are available?

-- wds

David Johnston · External Since: Jan 29, 2007 Posts: 168

On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 18:11:47 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
<seawasp.RemoveThis@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:

>David Johnston wrote:
>> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 16:31:34 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
>> <seawasp.RemoveThis@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>
>>> David Johnston wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 14:21:57 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
>>>> <seawasp.RemoveThis@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> David Johnston wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 16:53:33 +0000 (UTC),
>>>>>> mstemper.RemoveThis@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In article <hc1r5n$ofl$1@news.eternal-september.org>, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp.RemoveThis@sgeinc.invalid.com> writes:
>>>>>>>> Howard S Shubs wrote:
>>>>>>>> If I go to the Vorkoverse, I do NOT want to visit
>>>>>>>>> Jackson's Hole, for instance. And the Arisia/Bosconian universe is
>>>>>>>>> right out.
>>>>>>>> Actually, for the vast majority of the people in Civilization life was
>>>>>>>> very good and comfortable. We just get to watch the most "exciting" bits
>>>>>>>> in the books. Remember how very little of Civilization's GNP was devoted
>>>>>>>> to the war effort; for most people, most of the time, the War was far
>>>>>>>> away and not terribly important on their day-to-day lives.
>>>>>>> Yeah, for those of us safely here on Tellus. Things were a little tougher
>>>>>>> if your system of residence was close to the galactic rim, especially if
>>>>>>> it was on a line towards Lundmark's Nebula.
>>>>>> I never entirely bought the idea that the grandiose war they were
>>>>>> fighting was that cheap.
>>>>> If it's stated as absolute fact by those who should know in the book,
>>>>> you have to.
>>>> Unless of course I feel inclined to reject the author's claim.
>>> You can do that, but then you're arguing with God Almighty,
>>
>> I don't live in the book. I just read it.
>
> Yes. But the world of the book is the author's creation. If I tell you
>my book's hero has blond hair, you can try to deny that all you like,
>but the hero's hair will remain blond.

And when you tell me the hero's hair is blond because every Japanese
person has blond hair, I will beg leave to disbelieve.

peachyashiepassion · External Since: Oct 27, 2009 Posts: 1

David Johnston wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 18:11:47 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
> <seawasp.TakeThisOut@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>
>> David Johnston wrote:
>>> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 16:31:34 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
>>> <seawasp.TakeThisOut@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> David Johnston wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 14:21:57 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
>>>>> <seawasp.TakeThisOut@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> David Johnston wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 16:53:33 +0000 (UTC),
>>>>>>> mstemper.TakeThisOut@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In article <hc1r5n$ofl$1@news.eternal-september.org>, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp.TakeThisOut@sgeinc.invalid.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>> Howard S Shubs wrote:
>>>>>>>>> If I go to the Vorkoverse, I do NOT want to visit
>>>>>>>>>> Jackson's Hole, for instance. And the Arisia/Bosconian universe is
>>>>>>>>>> right out.
>>>>>>>>> Actually, for the vast majority of the people in Civilization life was
>>>>>>>>> very good and comfortable. We just get to watch the most "exciting" bits
>>>>>>>>> in the books. Remember how very little of Civilization's GNP was devoted
>>>>>>>>> to the war effort; for most people, most of the time, the War was far
>>>>>>>>> away and not terribly important on their day-to-day lives.
>>>>>>>> Yeah, for those of us safely here on Tellus. Things were a little tougher
>>>>>>>> if your system of residence was close to the galactic rim, especially if
>>>>>>>> it was on a line towards Lundmark's Nebula.
>>>>>>> I never entirely bought the idea that the grandiose war they were
>>>>>>> fighting was that cheap.
>>>>>> If it's stated as absolute fact by those who should know in the book,
>>>>>> you have to.
>>>>> Unless of course I feel inclined to reject the author's claim.
>>>> You can do that, but then you're arguing with God Almighty,
>>> I don't live in the book. I just read it.
>> Yes. But the world of the book is the author's creation. If I tell you
>> my book's hero has blond hair, you can try to deny that all you like,
>> but the hero's hair will remain blond.
>
> And when you tell me the hero's hair is blond because every Japanese
> person has blond hair, I will beg leave to disbelieve.

You can if you like, but you've just ignored the setting of the
book, the world building the author is doing, purely because you don't
like it.

Your call, but it means you are rewriting the world to suit yourself.

"Sea Wasp · External Since: Oct 21, 2009 Posts: 16

Robert Carnegie: Fnord: cc talk-origins.RemoveThis@moderators.isc.org wrote:
> Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>> Michael Stemper wrote:
>>> In article <hc1r5n$ofl$1@news.eternal-september.org>, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp.RemoveThis@sgeinc.invalid.com> writes:
>>>> Howard S Shubs wrote:
>>>> If I go to the Vorkoverse, I do NOT want to visit
>>>>> Jackson's Hole, for instance. And the Arisia/Bosconian universe is
>>>>> right out.
>>>> Actually, for the vast majority of the people in Civilization life was
>>>> very good and comfortable. We just get to watch the most "exciting" bits
>>>> in the books. Remember how very little of Civilization's GNP was devoted
>>>> to the war effort; for most people, most of the time, the War was far
>>>> away and not terribly important on their day-to-day lives.
>>> Yeah, for those of us safely here on Tellus. Things were a little tougher
>>> if your system of residence was close to the galactic rim, especially if
>>> it was on a line towards Lundmark's Nebula.
>> I was actually rather specifically NOT thinking of Tellus; remember the
>> reason the Sunbeam was invented. The war was not far away from the
>> Capital of Civilization; if Boskone could figure out a way to nail the
>> planet, they would.
>>
>> One of the other pleasant-but-not-visited places, like dropping by
>> Chickladoria or Aldebaran, etc., might be better choices.
>
> But where do you plan to buy drugs?
>
> Is this the series where the graduating class from police college

The Lensmen are a military force; they may ACT as cops in some ways,
but they're part of the single most powerful military force in the
Galaxy, and are, themselves, the elite of that force. They're Special
Operation Forces with a vengeance.

are
> invited to sit down and supplied with booze and cigarettes and
> appropriate-to-species equivalents while the boss lectures them about
> the galaxy-wide drugs problem?

Yes, it is. In the day it was written, hardly anyone DIDN'T smoke or
drink, at least in those classes of people.

I don't see any problem with that scene really, even today. People
still put cigarettes and alcohol in a different classification than
heroin and cocaine. And in THAT universe, they have "thionite", which by
description would in fact be something in an entirely different class
compared to just about any other drug.

--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com

Robert_Carnegie:_Fnord:_c · External Since: Oct 22, 2009 Posts: 11

On Oct 28, 12:26 am, peachyashiepassion <exquisitepe... DeleteThis @hotmail.com>
wrote:
> David Johnston wrote:
> > On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 18:11:47 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
> > <seaw... DeleteThis @sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>
> >> David Johnston wrote:
> >>> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 16:31:34 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
> >>> <seaw... DeleteThis @sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>
> >>>> David Johnston wrote:
> >>>>> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 14:21:57 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
> >>>>> <seaw... DeleteThis @sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>>> David Johnston wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 16:53:33 +0000 (UTC),
> >>>>>>> mstem... DeleteThis @walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>> In article <hc1r5n$of...@news.eternal-september.org>, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seaw... DeleteThis @sgeinc.invalid.com> writes:
> >>>>>>>>> Howard S Shubs wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> If I go to the Vorkoverse, I do NOT want to visit
> >>>>>>>>>> Jackson's Hole, for instance. And the Arisia/Bosconian universe is
> >>>>>>>>>> right out.
> >>>>>>>>> Actually, for the vast majority of the people in Civilization life was
> >>>>>>>>> very good and comfortable. We just get to watch the most "exciting" bits
> >>>>>>>>> in the books. Remember how very little of Civilization's GNP was devoted
> >>>>>>>>> to the war effort; for most people, most of the time, the War was far
> >>>>>>>>> away and not terribly important on their day-to-day lives.
> >>>>>>>> Yeah, for those of us safely here on Tellus. Things were a little tougher
> >>>>>>>> if your system of residence was close to the galactic rim, especially if
> >>>>>>>> it was on a line towards Lundmark's Nebula.
> >>>>>>> I never entirely bought the idea that the grandiose war they were
> >>>>>>> fighting was that cheap.
> >>>>>> If it's stated as absolute fact by those who should know in the book,
> >>>>>> you have to.
> >>>>> Unless of course I feel inclined to reject the author's claim.
> >>>> You can do that, but then you're arguing with God Almighty,
> >>> I don't live in the book. I just read it.
> >> Yes. But the world of the book is the author's creation.. If I tell you
> >> my book's hero has blond hair, you can try to deny that all you like,
> >> but the hero's hair will remain blond.
>
> > And when you tell me the hero's hair is blond because every Japanese
> > person has blond hair, I will beg leave to disbelieve.
>
> You can if you like, but you've just ignored the setting of the
> book, the world building the author is doing, purely because you don't
> like it.
>
> Your call, but it means you are rewriting the world to suit yourself.

I think the words "unreliable creator" fit as well as any. Assume
the /author/ is lying about what really happened.

Robert_Carnegie:_Fnord:_c · External Since: Oct 22, 2009 Posts: 11

On Oct 28, 1:57 am, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
<seaw... DeleteThis @sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> Robert Carnegie: Fnord: cc talk-orig... DeleteThis @moderators.isc.org wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> >> Michael Stemper wrote:
> >>> In article <hc1r5n$of...@news.eternal-september.org>, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seaw... DeleteThis @sgeinc.invalid.com> writes:
> >>>> Howard S Shubs wrote:
> >>>> If I go to the Vorkoverse, I do NOT want to visit
> >>>>> Jackson's Hole, for instance. And the Arisia/Bosconian universe is
> >>>>> right out.
> >>>> Actually, for the vast majority of the people in Civilization life was
> >>>> very good and comfortable. We just get to watch the most "exciting" bits
> >>>> in the books. Remember how very little of Civilization's GNP was devoted
> >>>> to the war effort; for most people, most of the time, the War was far
> >>>> away and not terribly important on their day-to-day lives.
> >>> Yeah, for those of us safely here on Tellus. Things were a little tougher
> >>> if your system of residence was close to the galactic rim, especially if
> >>> it was on a line towards Lundmark's Nebula.
> >> I was actually rather specifically NOT thinking of Tellus; remember the
> >> reason the Sunbeam was invented. The war was not far away from the
> >> Capital of Civilization; if Boskone could figure out a way to nail the
> >> planet, they would.
>
> >> One of the other pleasant-but-not-visited places, like dropping by
> >> Chickladoria or Aldebaran, etc., might be better choices.
>
> > But where do you plan to buy drugs?
>
> > Is this the series where the graduating class from police college
>
> The Lensmen are a military force; they may ACT as cops in some ways,
> but they're part of the single most powerful military force in the
> Galaxy, and are, themselves, the elite of that force. They're Special
> Operation Forces with a vengeance.
>
> are
>
> > invited to sit down and supplied with booze and cigarettes and
> > appropriate-to-species equivalents while the boss lectures them about
> > the galaxy-wide drugs problem?
>
> Yes, it is. In the day it was written, hardly anyone DIDN'T smoke or
> drink, at least in those classes of people.
>
> I don't see any problem with that scene really, even today. People
> still put cigarettes and alcohol in a different classification than
> heroin and cocaine.

Alcohol has been, is, illegal in some places and times on Earth.
Popular, though. But I don't find the effect attractive, on me or on
others... A lot of people don't mind cannabis, either, it's socially
acceptable. And other people do mind it. And for that matter,
cocaine was dentist's anaesthetic, and heroin essentially is a leading
pain control drug now, but they call it diamorphine in that context.
But isn't it the same stuff?

> And in THAT universe, they have "thionite", which by
> description would in fact be something in an entirely different class
> compared to just about any other drug.

Yeah... totally unkickable. So of course Kinnison kicks the habit.

Robert_Carnegie:_Fnord:_c · External Since: Oct 22, 2009 Posts: 11

On Oct 28, 12:21 pm, mstem... RemoveThis @walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper)
wrote:
> In article <05bee55tpt20jk07pal4rg3mdkt27iq... RemoveThis @4ax.com>, David Johnston <da... RemoveThis @block.net> writes:
> >On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 16:53:33 +0000 (UTC), mstem... RemoveThis @walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
> >>In article <hc1r5n$of...@news.eternal-september.org>, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seaw... RemoveThis @sgeinc.invalid.com> writes:
> >>> Actually, for the vast majority of the people in Civilization life was
> >>>very good and comfortable. We just get to watch the most "exciting" bits
> >>>in the books. Remember how very little of Civilization's GNP was devoted
> >>>to the war effort; for most people, most of the time, the War was far
> >>>away and not terribly important on their day-to-day lives.
>
> >>Yeah, for those of us safely here on Tellus. Things were a little tougher
> >>if your system of residence was close to the galactic rim, especially if
> >>it was on a line towards Lundmark's Nebula.
>
> >I never entirely bought the idea that the grandiose war they were
> >fighting was that cheap.
>
> Not on an absolute scale, no. But, on a per-capita scale, probably.
>
> In Chapter 28 of _Children of the Lens_, it's stated that Tellus,
> an average planet, graduates about one hundred new Lensmen per
> year. If you scale a planet's share of the Patrol based upon one
> hundred new Lensmen per year, that planet's share of the Patrol
> isn't really huge, especially when you take into account the fact
> that most (if not all) of the US Service Acadamies gradutate
> several times that.
>
> Yet, in aggregate, it's huge. That graudating rate, accumulated
> over the entire First Galaxy, leads to 6.85E12 new Lensmen per
> year. The size of the armed forces implied by this is enormous.
> Stupendous! INCREDIBLE!!!
>
> So is the traffic problem in the Arisian system, of course, with
> almost a quarter of a million candidates for Lensmanship arriving
> to be vetted every second.

Of course that's only what they /perceive/ happening. It is probably
actually done by mail.

Robert_Carnegie:_Fnord:_c · External Since: Oct 22, 2009 Posts: 11

On Oct 28, 12:58 pm, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
<seaw....TakeThisOut@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> Robert Carnegie: Fnord: cc talk-orig....TakeThisOut@moderators.isc.org wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 28, 12:21 pm, mstem....TakeThisOut@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper)
> > wrote:
> >> In article <05bee55tpt20jk07pal4rg3mdkt27iq....TakeThisOut@4ax.com>, David Johnston <da....TakeThisOut@block.net> writes:
> >>> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 16:53:33 +0000 (UTC), mstem....TakeThisOut@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
> >>>> In article <hc1r5n$of...@news.eternal-september.org>, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seaw....TakeThisOut@sgeinc.invalid.com> writes:
> >>>>> Actually, for the vast majority of the people in Civilization life was
> >>>>> very good and comfortable. We just get to watch the most "exciting" bits
> >>>>> in the books. Remember how very little of Civilization's GNP was devoted
> >>>>> to the war effort; for most people, most of the time, the War was far
> >>>>> away and not terribly important on their day-to-day lives.
> >>>> Yeah, for those of us safely here on Tellus. Things were a little tougher
> >>>> if your system of residence was close to the galactic rim, especially if
> >>>> it was on a line towards Lundmark's Nebula.
> >>> I never entirely bought the idea that the grandiose war they were
> >>> fighting was that cheap.
> >> Not on an absolute scale, no. But, on a per-capita scale, probably.
>
> >> In Chapter 28 of _Children of the Lens_, it's stated that Tellus,
> >> an average planet, graduates about one hundred new Lensmen per
> >> year. If you scale a planet's share of the Patrol based upon one
> >> hundred new Lensmen per year, that planet's share of the Patrol
> >> isn't really huge, especially when you take into account the fact
> >> that most (if not all) of the US Service Acadamies gradutate
> >> several times that.
>
> >> Yet, in aggregate, it's huge. That graudating rate, accumulated
> >> over the entire First Galaxy, leads to 6.85E12 new Lensmen per
> >> year. The size of the armed forces implied by this is enormous.
> >> Stupendous! INCREDIBLE!!!
>
> >> So is the traffic problem in the Arisian system, of course, with
> >> almost a quarter of a million candidates for Lensmanship arriving
> >> to be vetted every second.
>
> > Of course that's only what they /perceive/ happening. It is probably
> > actually done by mail.
>
> Instant messaging. "i can has Lens pls?" "I M M3N+0R! PH33R MY 133+
> +313p4+y 5k1Lz! IM in UR brain reedin' UR thoughts.!"

Subscribe. And "instant" /means/ instant...

But to go back, on reflection - planets are big things, something easy
to forget when reading "Doc" Smith. ("Two thousand million or so
years ago two galaxies were colliding; or, rather, were passing
through each other" - is the start of the story, then it builds to a
climax.)

What is a reasonable estimate of future space traffic volume in and
out of the Solar System? How much travel is there now /on/ Earth?
Will a well-regulated planet have trouble handling... 200,000,000,000
visitors an Earth day. Well, I suppose that /is/ a lot.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bethselamin#Bethselamin>

"Sea Wasp · External Since: Oct 21, 2009 Posts: 16

Robert Carnegie: Fnord: cc talk-origins.DeleteThis@moderators.isc.org wrote:
> On Oct 28, 1:57 am, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
> <seaw....DeleteThis@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>> Robert Carnegie: Fnord: cc talk-orig....DeleteThis@moderators.isc.org wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>>>> Michael Stemper wrote:
>>>>> In article <hc1r5n$of...@news.eternal-september.org>, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seaw....DeleteThis@sgeinc.invalid.com> writes:
>>>>>> Howard S Shubs wrote:
>>>>>> If I go to the Vorkoverse, I do NOT want to visit
>>>>>>> Jackson's Hole, for instance. And the Arisia/Bosconian universe is
>>>>>>> right out.
>>>>>> Actually, for the vast majority of the people in Civilization life was
>>>>>> very good and comfortable. We just get to watch the most "exciting" bits
>>>>>> in the books. Remember how very little of Civilization's GNP was devoted
>>>>>> to the war effort; for most people, most of the time, the War was far
>>>>>> away and not terribly important on their day-to-day lives.
>>>>> Yeah, for those of us safely here on Tellus. Things were a little tougher
>>>>> if your system of residence was close to the galactic rim, especially if
>>>>> it was on a line towards Lundmark's Nebula.
>>>> I was actually rather specifically NOT thinking of Tellus; remember the
>>>> reason the Sunbeam was invented. The war was not far away from the
>>>> Capital of Civilization; if Boskone could figure out a way to nail the
>>>> planet, they would.
>>>> One of the other pleasant-but-not-visited places, like dropping by
>>>> Chickladoria or Aldebaran, etc., might be better choices.
>>> But where do you plan to buy drugs?
>>> Is this the series where the graduating class from police college
>> The Lensmen are a military force; they may ACT as cops in some ways,
>> but they're part of the single most powerful military force in the
>> Galaxy, and are, themselves, the elite of that force. They're Special
>> Operation Forces with a vengeance.
>>
>> are
>>
>>> invited to sit down and supplied with booze and cigarettes and
>>> appropriate-to-species equivalents while the boss lectures them about
>>> the galaxy-wide drugs problem?
>> Yes, it is. In the day it was written, hardly anyone DIDN'T smoke or
>> drink, at least in those classes of people.
>>
>> I don't see any problem with that scene really, even today. People
>> still put cigarettes and alcohol in a different classification than
>> heroin and cocaine.
>
> Alcohol has been, is, illegal in some places and times on Earth.

Yes, but attempts to get rid of it HERE have been... spectacularly
unsuccessful, in some ways even more so than our pathetic War on Drugs.

> Popular, though. But I don't find the effect attractive, on me or on
> others...

I don't drink alcohol or smoke anything.

>> And in THAT universe, they have "thionite", which by
>> description would in fact be something in an entirely different class
>> compared to just about any other drug.
>
> Yeah... totally unkickable. So of course Kinnison kicks the habit.

Completely addictive in ONE dose due to its lovely "I satisfy all of
your desires at once" effect, and totally unkickable unless you're a
Lensman-grade mentality, and even then it's *HARD*. It's something that
revisits you for YEARS; Virgil Samms (not Kinnison; Kinnison took the
role of a bentlam-user during his undercover work as Wild Bill Williams)
took years to just be able to keep from having semi-flashbacks whenever
he saw a particular shade of purple.

--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com

"Sea Wasp · External Since: Oct 21, 2009 Posts: 16

Robert Carnegie: Fnord: cc talk-origins DeleteThis @moderators.isc.org wrote:
> On Oct 28, 12:26 am, peachyashiepassion <exquisitepe... DeleteThis @hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>> David Johnston wrote:
>>> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 18:11:47 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
>>> <seaw... DeleteThis @sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>>> David Johnston wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 16:31:34 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
>>>>> <seaw... DeleteThis @sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>>>>> David Johnston wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 14:21:57 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
>>>>>>> <seaw... DeleteThis @sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> David Johnston wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 16:53:33 +0000 (UTC),
>>>>>>>>> mstem... DeleteThis @walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In article <hc1r5n$of...@news.eternal-september.org>, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seaw... DeleteThis @sgeinc.invalid.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>> Howard S Shubs wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> If I go to the Vorkoverse, I do NOT want to visit
>>>>>>>>>>>> Jackson's Hole, for instance. And the Arisia/Bosconian universe is
>>>>>>>>>>>> right out.
>>>>>>>>>>> Actually, for the vast majority of the people in Civilization life was
>>>>>>>>>>> very good and comfortable. We just get to watch the most "exciting" bits
>>>>>>>>>>> in the books. Remember how very little of Civilization's GNP was devoted
>>>>>>>>>>> to the war effort; for most people, most of the time, the War was far
>>>>>>>>>>> away and not terribly important on their day-to-day lives.
>>>>>>>>>> Yeah, for those of us safely here on Tellus. Things were a little tougher
>>>>>>>>>> if your system of residence was close to the galactic rim, especially if
>>>>>>>>>> it was on a line towards Lundmark's Nebula.
>>>>>>>>> I never entirely bought the idea that the grandiose war they were
>>>>>>>>> fighting was that cheap.
>>>>>>>> If it's stated as absolute fact by those who should know in the book,
>>>>>>>> you have to.
>>>>>>> Unless of course I feel inclined to reject the author's claim.
>>>>>> You can do that, but then you're arguing with God Almighty,
>>>>> I don't live in the book. I just read it.
>>>> Yes. But the world of the book is the author's creation. If I tell you
>>>> my book's hero has blond hair, you can try to deny that all you like,
>>>> but the hero's hair will remain blond.
>>> And when you tell me the hero's hair is blond because every Japanese
>>> person has blond hair, I will beg leave to disbelieve.
>> You can if you like, but you've just ignored the setting of the
>> book, the world building the author is doing, purely because you don't
>> like it.
>>
>> Your call, but it means you are rewriting the world to suit yourself.
>
> I think the words "unreliable creator" fit as well as any. Assume
> the /author/ is lying about what really happened.

That could happen with some authors, but not Doc. You could assume that
Doc made worldbuilding assumptions which would not fit with the real
world, but not that he was lying; it wasn't his style in general, and
certainly not in his "persona" as the Historian of Civilization.

--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com

"Sea Wasp · External Since: Oct 21, 2009 Posts: 16

Robert Carnegie: Fnord: cc talk-origins.RemoveThis@moderators.isc.org wrote:
> On Oct 28, 12:21 pm, mstem....RemoveThis@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper)
> wrote:
>> In article <05bee55tpt20jk07pal4rg3mdkt27iq....RemoveThis@4ax.com>, David Johnston <da....RemoveThis@block.net> writes:
>>> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 16:53:33 +0000 (UTC), mstem....RemoveThis@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
>>>> In article <hc1r5n$of...@news.eternal-september.org>, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seaw....RemoveThis@sgeinc.invalid.com> writes:
>>>>> Actually, for the vast majority of the people in Civilization life was
>>>>> very good and comfortable. We just get to watch the most "exciting" bits
>>>>> in the books. Remember how very little of Civilization's GNP was devoted
>>>>> to the war effort; for most people, most of the time, the War was far
>>>>> away and not terribly important on their day-to-day lives.
>>>> Yeah, for those of us safely here on Tellus. Things were a little tougher
>>>> if your system of residence was close to the galactic rim, especially if
>>>> it was on a line towards Lundmark's Nebula.
>>> I never entirely bought the idea that the grandiose war they were
>>> fighting was that cheap.
>> Not on an absolute scale, no. But, on a per-capita scale, probably.
>>
>> In Chapter 28 of _Children of the Lens_, it's stated that Tellus,
>> an average planet, graduates about one hundred new Lensmen per
>> year. If you scale a planet's share of the Patrol based upon one
>> hundred new Lensmen per year, that planet's share of the Patrol
>> isn't really huge, especially when you take into account the fact
>> that most (if not all) of the US Service Acadamies gradutate
>> several times that.
>>
>> Yet, in aggregate, it's huge. That graudating rate, accumulated
>> over the entire First Galaxy, leads to 6.85E12 new Lensmen per
>> year. The size of the armed forces implied by this is enormous.
>> Stupendous! INCREDIBLE!!!
>>
>> So is the traffic problem in the Arisian system, of course, with
>> almost a quarter of a million candidates for Lensmanship arriving
>> to be vetted every second.
>
> Of course that's only what they /perceive/ happening. It is probably
> actually done by mail.

Instant messaging. "i can has Lens pls?" "I M M3N+0R! PH33R MY 133+
+313p4+y 5k1Lz! IM in UR brain reedin' UR thoughts.!"

--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com