Recording in WET WET WET places

Millar Montgomery · External Since: Jul 26, 2007 Posts: 4

Got a gig coming up where we will be shooting a person learning to
surf. Production wants to be able to shoot in the breakers as that is
where the lessons and all the reaction shots will be. Also, will be
shooting white water rafting, and sailing.

I have used MM's before but I am not sure exactly how waterproof
they are. I like the idea of using an MM in a condom or a ziplock
under a wetsuit as it is much lower profile than a waterbox. Would
putting the trx under a neoprene suit soak up a lot of the rf and kill
my range? Also, anyone have any recommendations or experience as to
how lav's hold up being submerged in salt/fresh water? I have no
experience submerging a lav but I have read that countryman are the
best to go with. Do you have to cover the capsule of the lav with a
condom and how does that effect the sound?

With the transmitter out in the water how does one stay close enough
to get reception? Have no desire at all to sit on a jet ski in the
breakers with my kit (disaster waiting to happen) but fear that being
stuck on shore or out with the rollers off shore my range will
suffer. What happens to RF when it is transmitted at or near water
lever anyways?

I appreciate any and all insight into this as this will be my first
time doing a gig in such wet places.

mikewest · External Since: Jul 14, 2007 Posts: 6

Hi Millar,

I've done all this stuff with various formats.

The first issue to deal with is are you shooting film or video

I guess the answer is video and then we ask how is the camera mounted
or used, as if you need to feed the camera there is a problem.

You need to be in a stable nearby environment like a solid craft or
even
a Zodiac placed nearby.

I'm going to guess tht you need to feed the camera by radio as a guide
track
and therefore that you need to record the presenter as a master audio
source.

Slating is no doubt not practical so a hand clap and I/D from the
presenter will
facilitate syncing in post production.

As far as the presenter, I have great faith in the MM400a and own two
and have used
them in water situations.

Yes the B6 is great but not good in water and is wind sensitive so
dressing into the clothing of the presenters needs to be carefully
done.

Make the producers and director of the show aware firstly that it is
not a straighforward sound task, so you need their understanding and
support.
Also that production insurance is needed to cover the risk you are
taking with
all you equipment at sea on their behalf and for their production.

Do not hesitate to emil me direct if you need further comment

Kind regards

Mike
www.mikewestgatesound.co.nz

Millar Montgomery · External Since: Jul 26, 2007 Posts: 4

On Aug 6, 10:00 pm, mikewest <mikew....DeleteThis@soundtq.co.nz> wrote:
> Hi Millar,
>
> I've done all this stuff with various formats.
>
> The first issue to deal with is are you shooting film or video
>
> I guess the answer is video and then we ask how is the camera mounted
> or used, as if you need to feed the camera there is a problem.
>
> You need to be in a stable nearby environment like a solid craft or
> even
> a Zodiac placed nearby.
>
> I'm going to guess tht you need to feed the camera by radio as a guide
> track
> and therefore that you need to record the presenter as a master audio
> source.
>
> Slating is no doubt not practical so a hand clap and I/D from the
> presenter will
> facilitate syncing in post production.
>
> As far as the presenter, I have great faith in the MM400a and own two
> and have used
> them in water situations.
>
> Yes the B6 is great but not good in water and is wind sensitive so
> dressing into the clothing of the presenters needs to be carefully
> done.
>
> Make the producers and director of the show aware firstly that it is
> not a straighforward sound task, so you need their understanding and
> support.
> Also that production insurance is needed to cover the risk you are
> taking with
> all you equipment at sea on their behalf and for their production.
>
> Do not hesitate to emil me direct if you need further comment
>
> Kind regards
>
> Mikewww.mikewestgatesound.co.nz

Thanks for the advice Mike. The camera is going to be in an
underwater housing and I will be rolling on my 744t. I dont think
that getting a guide track to camera is super crucial we wont be
transmitting back to them but may try and jam a clockit into the
housing for timecode. I was looking at using the EMW as a lav after
reading Glen Trew's comments about its performance in and under the
water. Any idea about how neoprene effects rf transmission if the
pack is under a wetsuit?

Richard Crowley · External Since: Sep 22, 2006 Posts: 93

"Millar Montgomery" wrote ...
> Any idea about how neoprene effects rf transmission if the
> pack is under a wetsuit?

I wouldn't expect any significant effect from neoprene. After
all the antennas themselves have some variation of rubber
or plastic insulation over them.

OTOH, the effects of transmitting from underwater (and
especially in saltwater?) may be an issue. The talent's
skin soaked with saltwater might tend to soak up some
of the RF also, especially if the antenna is tightly held
against their body by the wet-suit.

Larry Fisher · External Since: May 16, 2006 Posts: 339

Hi Millar,
I don't have a lot of answers but here are some hints. Make sure all
the MM O-rings are well greased with Vaseline. Put a dab of Vaseline
inside the SMA connector, if it is and older MM with the SM connector.
It doesn't hurt the RF at all. If the antenna is really close to the
body, you will lose 3/4ths your range. If the antenna is under water,
you will lose all your range, i.e., zip range.

Get the antenna up above the shoulder. With a newer MM, you will have
to get the transmitter on the shoulder. With an older unit, you can
use an ACOAXTX##, which is a folded dipole antenna with the block as
##. The last 6 inches of the antenna needs to stick up above the
shoulder. At a distance, you can't see it and it helps the range
tremendously.

You are probably going to lose some mics. Make sure you have spares
with the waterproof connector. Don't over tighten the mic connector
because on early units you can force the o-ring out of position. Later
units have groove that retains it.

The MM is pretty tight but a second layer of "protection" is always
good. I don't know about a zip lock bag. I think they will leak. Maybe
some one else here has some knowledge. It only takes one drop of
saltwater in a unit to cause serious damage. Make sure the unit is
rinsed in fresh water and dried off before putting in a new battery
and make sure the battery and battery door including threads is
totally dry. After you are done, open the unit everywhere and let it
ventilate overnight.
Best Regards,
Larry Fisher
Lectrosonics

On Mon, 06 Aug 2007 20:30:00 -0700, Millar Montgomery
<raincitysound RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:

> Got a gig coming up where we will be shooting a person learning to
>surf. Production wants to be able to shoot in the breakers as that is
>where the lessons and all the reaction shots will be. Also, will be
>shooting white water rafting, and sailing.
>
> I have used MM's before but I am not sure exactly how waterproof
>they are. I like the idea of using an MM in a condom or a ziplock
>under a wetsuit as it is much lower profile than a waterbox. Would
>putting the trx under a neoprene suit soak up a lot of the rf and kill
>my range? Also, anyone have any recommendations or experience as to
>how lav's hold up being submerged in salt/fresh water? I have no
>experience submerging a lav but I have read that countryman are the
>best to go with. Do you have to cover the capsule of the lav with a
>condom and how does that effect the sound?
>
> With the transmitter out in the water how does one stay close enough
>to get reception? Have no desire at all to sit on a jet ski in the
>breakers with my kit (disaster waiting to happen) but fear that being
>stuck on shore or out with the rollers off shore my range will
>suffer. What happens to RF when it is transmitted at or near water
>lever anyways?
>
> I appreciate any and all insight into this as this will be my first
>time doing a gig in such wet places.

Noah Timan · External Since: Jun 04, 2007 Posts: 67

On Aug 7, 10:25 am, Millar Montgomery <raincityso....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:

> I was looking at using the EMW as a lav after
> reading Glen Trew's comments about its performance in and under the
> water.

Hi Millar,

I've been told by several folks that the EMW is a better choice than
the B6 for water work. I've used both in rain scenes with no trouble,
but I've never done much with the mics submerged for long periods.

nvt

Charles Tomaras · External Since: May 24, 2004 Posts: 1755

"Larry Fisher" <lectrosonics RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
news:nn4hb31t9iggqnj0fc08mr65s9i888ff6a@4ax.com...

>
> The MM is pretty tight but a second layer of "protection" is always
> good. I don't know about a zip lock bag. I think they will leak. Maybe
> some one else here has some knowledge.

I have used latex/rubber gloves to seal transmitters. You can put the
antenna in one of the fingers (your choice) and run the mic up another
finger through a small hole. Tightly wrap waterproof tape around the mic
cable at the hole and similarly seal up the bottom part of the glove as low
as possible so if you need to slice the bottom off to open and access the
unit you still have more glove to use to reseal it again and not have to
mess with the mic. I used this on a car drowning sequence a number of times
in one night with a countryman lav in the visor a few years back and it
worked like a charm. Dialog, car goes into and under the water, last air
space conversation was perfect and then "glub glub glub" as the water
(fresh) hit the mic and submerged. RF was actually OK from about 20 feet
away with the car submerging a number of feet. (250 mw transmitter and a
decent antenna. When the car was resurfaced the lav functioned just fine
again without me even having to blow it out or anything.

Charlie
Seattle

Larry Fisher · External Since: May 16, 2006 Posts: 339

Hi Charlie,
Thanks for the input. I'm surprised that you even got 20 feet. Nothing
like real experience.
LarryF
Lectro

On Tue, 7 Aug 2007 12:51:18 -0700, "Charles Tomaras"
<tomaras.RemoveThis@tomaras.com> wrote:

>"Larry Fisher" <lectrosonics.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:nn4hb31t9iggqnj0fc08mr65s9i888ff6a@4ax.com...
>
>>
>> The MM is pretty tight but a second layer of "protection" is always
>> good. I don't know about a zip lock bag. I think they will leak. Maybe
>> some one else here has some knowledge.
>
>I have used latex/rubber gloves to seal transmitters. You can put the
>antenna in one of the fingers (your choice) and run the mic up another
>finger through a small hole. Tightly wrap waterproof tape around the mic
>cable at the hole and similarly seal up the bottom part of the glove as low
>as possible so if you need to slice the bottom off to open and access the
>unit you still have more glove to use to reseal it again and not have to
>mess with the mic. I used this on a car drowning sequence a number of times
>in one night with a countryman lav in the visor a few years back and it
>worked like a charm. Dialog, car goes into and under the water, last air
>space conversation was perfect and then "glub glub glub" as the water
>(fresh) hit the mic and submerged. RF was actually OK from about 20 feet
>away with the car submerging a number of feet. (250 mw transmitter and a
>decent antenna. When the car was resurfaced the lav functioned just fine
>again without me even having to blow it out or anything.
>
>Charlie
>Seattle

John Reynolds · External Since: Aug 08, 2007 Posts: 1

Aloha Millar
Working in Hawaii I have spent a lot of time in and around the water.
Shooting a surfing lesson and dialog on the water has many trials and
problems. If you can convince production to shoot the dialog scenes
of the lessons just off the break with the waves in the background,
you can put a boomperson on the back of a jetski and boom the shots.
Done this many times, even off Pipeline on the north shore of Oahu. I
have 7 of the Lectro MM400 and have used them many times in wet
situations, always working. Things to watch out for are some as
decribed in earlier posts. Keep the mm400 away from the body and up
as high as possible. If the unit goes underwater transmission is
lost, and will return when the unit surfaces. I have used various
mics in these situations and the EMW will work fine, wind is the
problem. almost any windscreen will pick-up and hold the water,
making the track unusable. Wind Tec has what they call a "waterproof
wind screen", I think. Try soaking a small wind screen in something
like Thompsans Water Seal, once it's dry, the water sheds a little
more than soaks up. As a final note, let producion know that you will
try, but don't hope for a perfect audio track. Some parts may great
but around the water, you might only be able to get a scratch track.
Best of luck. Contact me off line for more specifics if needed. JOHN

Dave Fisk · External Since: Jun 06, 2007 Posts: 32

For some sick reason, I thought this was about sound for porno....

Charles Tomaras · External Since: May 24, 2004 Posts: 1755

"Dave Fisk" <dfisk79 DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1186682925.842439.119030@j4g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> For some sick reason, I thought this was about sound for porno....
>

For that I recommend a thigh pack and a B-6.