'The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie' (1969)

calvin · External Since: Feb 07, 2009 Posts: 505

Having never seen this popular movie I watched it because
it was among the 'classroom movies' named here a while back.
Aside from Miss Brodie's strange and obsessive notions
about politics, female heroism, dedication, and the rest,
I thought this movie was downright weird, and wrong, in
apparently seeing nothing to censure in a middle-aged male
art teacher having students pose for him, one nude, and
having casual sexually suggestive contact with them, including
impulsive kissing.

Though this may (though I doubt it) have been
sanctioned by the moviegoing public in 1969, it certainly
would not have been okay at the English girls' school of the
movie, in the period between the two World Wars.

Perhaps the filmmakers thought that since the art teacher
really was attracted to Miss Brodie, and not to the girls,
his behavior was all right, but I can't see it.

moviePig · External Since: Aug 08, 2005 Posts: 2457

On Mar 15, 9:07 am, calvin wrote:
> Having never seen this popular movie I watched it because
> it was among the 'classroom movies' named here a while back.
> Aside from Miss Brodie's strange and obsessive notions
> about politics, female heroism, dedication, and the rest,
> I thought this movie was downright weird, and wrong, in
> apparently seeing nothing to censure in a middle-aged male
> art teacher having students pose for him, one nude, and
> having casual sexually suggestive contact with them, including
> impulsive kissing.
>
> Though this may (though I doubt it) have been
> sanctioned by the moviegoing public in 1969, it certainly
> would not have been okay at the English girls' school of the
> movie, in the period between the two World Wars.
>
> Perhaps the filmmakers thought that since the art teacher
> really was attracted to Miss Brodie, and not to the girls,
> his behavior was all right, but I can't see it.

Iirc, the art teacher was an age-indifferent lech, and the movie said
so.

--

- - - - - - - -
YOUR taste at work...
http://www.moviepig.com

calvin · External Since: Feb 07, 2009 Posts: 505

On Thursday, March 15, 2012 10:20:19 AM UTC-4, moviePig wrote:
> On Mar 15, 9:07 am, calvin wrote:
> > Having never seen this popular movie I watched it because
> > it was among the 'classroom movies' named here a while back.
> > Aside from Miss Brodie's strange and obsessive notions
> > about politics, female heroism, dedication, and the rest,
> > I thought this movie was downright weird, and wrong, in
> > apparently seeing nothing to censure in a middle-aged male
> > art teacher having students pose for him, one nude, and
> > having casual sexually suggestive contact with them, including
> > impulsive kissing.
> >
> > Though this may (though I doubt it) have been
> > sanctioned by the moviegoing public in 1969, it certainly
> > would not have been okay at the English girls' school of the
> > movie, in the period between the two World Wars.
> >
> > Perhaps the filmmakers thought that since the art teacher
> > really was attracted to Miss Brodie, and not to the girls,
> > his behavior was all right, but I can't see it.
>
> Iirc, the art teacher was an age-indifferent lech, and the movie said
> so.

But what the movie didn't say or imply was that
he was criminal in his age-indifferent behavior
and in his exploitation of students.

Basically, his comeuppance was that the girl who
posed nude for him, and even called herself his
lover (though presumably still virginal), realized
that he cared only for Miss Brodie, and told him
off and left him on that account. For his true
crime he was never indicted, by student, teacher,
or filmmaker.

Miss Brodie's comeuppance, on the other hand, was
quite thorough and all-encompassing.

Howard Brazee · External Since: Sep 25, 2005 Posts: 1419

On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 07:07:09 -0700 (PDT), calvin
wrote:

>Having never seen this popular movie I watched it because
>it was among the 'classroom movies' named here a while back.
>Aside from Miss Brodie's strange and obsessive notions
>about politics, female heroism, dedication, and the rest,
>I thought this movie was downright weird, and wrong, in
>apparently seeing nothing to censure in a middle-aged male
>art teacher having students pose for him, one nude, and
>having casual sexually suggestive contact with them, including
>impulsive kissing.
>
>Though this may (though I doubt it) have been
>sanctioned by the moviegoing public in 1969, it certainly
>would not have been okay at the English girls' school of the
>movie, in the period between the two World Wars.
>
>Perhaps the filmmakers thought that since the art teacher
>really was attracted to Miss Brodie, and not to the girls,
>his behavior was all right, but I can't see it.

Being OK or not - that kind of thing *did* happen.

The movie wasn't trying to depict "OK". Obviously Miss Brodie's
support of fascism was one example.

--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."

- James Madison

gtr · External Since: Feb 17, 2010 Posts: 155

On 2012-03-15 15:12:01 +0000, Howard Brazee said:

> Being OK or not - that kind of thing *did* happen.

Even pondering what happens in British schools, public or boarding,
whether ok not ok, has a worrisome quality.
--
I do not feel obligated to believe that the same God who has endowed us
with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forego their use.
-- Galileo

calvin · External Since: Feb 07, 2009 Posts: 505

On Thursday, March 15, 2012 11:12:01 AM UTC-4, Howard Brazee wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 07:07:09 -0700 (PDT), calvin wrote:
> >Having never seen this popular movie I watched it because
> >it was among the 'classroom movies' named here a while back.
> >Aside from Miss Brodie's strange and obsessive notions
> >about politics, female heroism, dedication, and the rest,
> >I thought this movie was downright weird, and wrong, in
> >apparently seeing nothing to censure in a middle-aged male
> >art teacher having students pose for him, one nude, and
> >having casual sexually suggestive contact with them, including
> >impulsive kissing.
> >
> >Though this may (though I doubt it) have been
> >sanctioned by the moviegoing public in 1969, it certainly
> >would not have been okay at the English girls' school of the
> >movie, in the period between the two World Wars.
> >
> >Perhaps the filmmakers thought that since the art teacher
> >really was attracted to Miss Brodie, and not to the girls,
> >his behavior was all right, but I can't see it.
>
> Being OK or not - that kind of thing *did* happen.
>
> The movie wasn't trying to depict "OK". Obviously Miss Brodie's
> support of fascism was one example.

But we saw consequences of her support of fascism.

I never said that what the art teacher did didn't happen.
In most movies, as in this one in most other respects,
when something that is not okay is shown, the movie at
least implies that someone knows it is wrong. In this
matter the filmmakers themselves seemed oblivious.

There was another similar thing, but for it the
filmmakers seemed to know it was weird: Miss Brodie
had a notion that the most beautiful student (the one
who had posed for a standard portrait) was destined
to be above everyone else, not encumbered by ideas
of right and wrong, a Nietzschian woman so to speak.
But her fantasy was not acted out in any way. It
would have been interesting to see something of what
Miss Brodie had in mind.

moviePig · External Since: Aug 08, 2005 Posts: 2457

On Mar 15, 10:11 am, calvin wrote:
> On Thursday, March 15, 2012 10:20:19 AM UTC-4, moviePig wrote:
> > On Mar 15, 9:07 am, calvin wrote:
> > > Having never seen this popular movie I watched it because
> > > it was among the 'classroom movies' named here a while back.
> > > Aside from Miss Brodie's strange and obsessive notions
> > > about politics, female heroism, dedication, and the rest,
> > > I thought this movie was downright weird, and wrong, in
> > > apparently seeing nothing to censure in a middle-aged male
> > > art teacher having students pose for him, one nude, and
> > > having casual sexually suggestive contact with them, including
> > > impulsive kissing.
>
> > > Though this may (though I doubt it) have been
> > > sanctioned by the moviegoing public in 1969, it certainly
> > > would not have been okay at the English girls' school of the
> > > movie, in the period between the two World Wars.
>
> > > Perhaps the filmmakers thought that since the art teacher
> > > really was attracted to Miss Brodie, and not to the girls,
> > > his behavior was all right, but I can't see it.
>
> > Iirc, the art teacher was an age-indifferent lech, and the movie said
> > so.
>
> But what the movie didn't say or imply was that
> he was criminal in his age-indifferent behavior
> and in his exploitation of students.
>
> Basically, his comeuppance was that the girl who
> posed nude for him, and even called herself his
> lover (though presumably still virginal), realized
> that he cared only for Miss Brodie, and told him
> off and left him on that account. For his true
> crime he was never indicted, by student, teacher,
> or filmmaker.
>
> Miss Brodie's comeuppance, on the other hand, was
> quite thorough and all-encompassing.

Iirc, we had no reason to doubt he was actually screwing the
girl ...accentuated by her nude shot, as she was a former child-star.

--

- - - - - - - -
YOUR taste at work...
http://www.moviepig.com

Howard Brazee · External Since: Sep 25, 2005 Posts: 1419

On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 09:09:16 -0700 (PDT), calvin
wrote:

>I never said that what the art teacher did didn't happen.
>In most movies, as in this one in most other respects,
>when something that is not okay is shown, the movie at
>least implies that someone knows it is wrong. In this
>matter the filmmakers themselves seemed oblivious.
>
>There was another similar thing, but for it the
>filmmakers seemed to know it was weird: Miss Brodie
>had a notion that the most beautiful student (the one
>who had posed for a standard portrait) was destined
>to be above everyone else, not encumbered by ideas
>of right and wrong, a Nietzschian woman so to speak.
>But her fantasy was not acted out in any way. It
>would have been interesting to see something of what
>Miss Brodie had in mind.

We didn't see him get punished. But as you say, Miss Brodie's bad
idealism isn't just about fascism. We saw it acted out in her
students. We are able to judge her acceptance and rejection of the
relationships - and why she accepted or rejected them. The movie is
about her. What she did or neglected to do to those girls is what
we saw and condemn. Sure, she wasn't the only guilty party - but
she *was* guilty, and more interesting than he was.

--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."

- James Madison

Mack A. Damia · External Since: Aug 28, 2010 Posts: 180

On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 07:07:09 -0700 (PDT), calvin
wrote:

>Having never seen this popular movie I watched it because
>it was among the 'classroom movies' named here a while back.
>Aside from Miss Brodie's strange and obsessive notions
>about politics, female heroism, dedication, and the rest,
>I thought this movie was downright weird, and wrong, in
>apparently seeing nothing to censure in a middle-aged male
>art teacher having students pose for him, one nude, and
>having casual sexually suggestive contact with them, including
>impulsive kissing.
>
>Though this may (though I doubt it) have been
>sanctioned by the moviegoing public in 1969, it certainly
>would not have been okay at the English girls' school of the
>movie, in the period between the two World Wars.
>
>Perhaps the filmmakers thought that since the art teacher
>really was attracted to Miss Brodie, and not to the girls,
>his behavior was all right, but I can't see it.

I agree with you. It's on YouTube in its entirety (better download it
before it's pulled for copyright infringement).

I've never known a teacher like Jean Brodie, and I attending English
schools in the 1950s. Seems to me, Scottish schools were even more
strict with liberal doses of the tawse for naughty students.

The film seemed farfetched and the result of somebody's fantasy -
maybe even a wet dream. Great acting, of course, and Brodie's
character had a certain amusing quality to it. He fascination with
fascism was, I think, an expression of her own rigid self-discipline,
and she saw what she only wanted to see. The horrors of fascism of
the era didn't exist as far as she was concerned.
--

Howard Brazee · External Since: Sep 25, 2005 Posts: 1419

On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 05:53:47 -0700, Mack A. Damia
wrote:

>The film seemed farfetched and the result of somebody's fantasy -
>maybe even a wet dream. Great acting, of course, and Brodie's
>character had a certain amusing quality to it. He fascination with
>fascism was, I think, an expression of her own rigid self-discipline,
>and she saw what she only wanted to see. The horrors of fascism of
>the era didn't exist as far as she was concerned.

She got an Oscar for her great job - and her performance wasn't even
the best in the movie!

--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."

- James Madison

Stone me · External Since: Dec 11, 2011 Posts: 23

"Tom" wrote in message

[Snipped]
But, if ralph is correct and the age of consent in England at the time
was 16, there was no criminal behavior in the historical context.

Perhaps that's one reason why this movie hasn't been remade and set in
the 21st century.

Tom
~~~~~~~~
Parliament .. raise[d] the age of consent to 13 in 1875 (from 12)

the Criminal Law Amendment Act 1885 raised the age of consent to 16.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe#England_and_Wales

Stone me.

Brian Kraft · External Since: Apr 07, 2010 Posts: 10

This message is not archived

David O. · External Since: May 01, 2011 Posts: 35

On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 07:07:09 -0700 (PDT), calvin
wrote:

>Having never seen this popular movie I watched it because
>it was among the 'classroom movies' named here a while back.
>Aside from Miss Brodie's strange and obsessive notions
>about politics, female heroism, dedication, and the rest,
>I thought this movie was downright weird, and wrong, in
>apparently seeing nothing to censure in a middle-aged male
>art teacher having students pose for him, one nude, and
>having casual sexually suggestive contact with them, including
>impulsive kissing.

Isn't the suggestion made that Sandy doesn't pose (or start sleeping
with) the art teacher until she's 17 or 18 or whatever was of age in
Edinburgh in the '30s?

David O. · External Since: May 01, 2011 Posts: 35

On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 08:11:52 -0700 (PDT), calvin
wrote:

>But what the movie didn't say or imply was that
>he was criminal in his age-indifferent behavior
>and in his exploitation of students.

Maybe you're looking for too-explicit a censure of him. Wasn't he
portrayed all in all as an opportunistic lech without scruple,
professional or sexual? It was the choirmaster--a bachelor, too--who
was treated as a model of stability & ethical behavior.

>Basically, his comeuppance was that the girl who
>posed nude for him, and even called herself his
>lover (though presumably still virginal), realized
>that he cared only for Miss Brodie, and told him
>off and left him on that account. For his true
>crime he was never indicted, by student, teacher,
>or filmmaker.
>
>Miss Brodie's comeuppance, on the other hand, was
>quite thorough and all-encompassing.

You see this thing as basically a morality tale? I don't see the movie
(or the book) that way at all. I see it as a story of the dangerous
allure of personality & a satire of a sort of art-for-art's-sake
decadence.

calvin · External Since: Feb 07, 2009 Posts: 505

On Friday, March 16, 2012 11:06:58 PM UTC-4, David Oberman wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 07:07:09 -0700 (PDT), calvin wrote:
> >Having never seen this popular movie I watched it because
> >it was among the 'classroom movies' named here a while back.
> >Aside from Miss Brodie's strange and obsessive notions
> >about politics, female heroism, dedication, and the rest,
> >I thought this movie was downright weird, and wrong, in
> >apparently seeing nothing to censure in a middle-aged male
> >art teacher having students pose for him, one nude, and
> >having casual sexually suggestive contact with them, including
> >impulsive kissing.
>
> Isn't the suggestion made that Sandy doesn't pose (or start sleeping
> with) the art teacher until she's 17 or 18 or whatever was of age in
> Edinburgh in the '30s?

Maybe, but regardless of age of consent, I don't think
it's proper for teachers to have sexual relationships
with students, and surely in a girls' school of that time and
place the teacher would have lost his job instantly when the
word of his behavior got out.

David O. · External Since: May 01, 2011 Posts: 35

On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 20:17:32 -0700 (PDT), calvin
wrote:

>Maybe, but regardless of age of consent, I don't think
>it's proper for teachers to have sexual relationships
>with students, and surely in a girls' school of that time and
>place the teacher would have lost his job instantly when the
>word of his behavior got out.

But word of his behavior really didn't get out. Sandy knew, obviously,
& so did Jean. But who else knew?

calvin · External Since: Feb 07, 2009 Posts: 505

On Friday, March 16, 2012 11:30:04 PM UTC-4, David Oberman wrote:
> ...

It has already begun, apparently. I'm using
the new version of Google Groups, and all of
Mr. Oberman's posts in this thread have been
'flagged for abuse' and temporarily hidden.
They can still be seen but I have to first
answer the question, yes or no, if they
should be so flagged. Other posts in other
threads that have been 'flagged for abuse'
remain hidden without such a question being
asked. Clearly Google Groups knows something
about Mr. Oberman that is not obvious from the
content of his posts.

calvin · External Since: Feb 07, 2009 Posts: 505

I remember the fuss about Ashcroft in the early
years of the Bush administration, and I saw nothing
whatever wrong with the man. It appeared to be just
genned-up hysteria by the left, with no basis
whatsoever. John Bolton was another such target of
leftist dislike that had no valid cause. Fie on the
left. Just two reasons from recent years why I know
lefties can't be trusted, and why since 1988 they
haven't gotten my votes. Though I prefer Romney and
Gingrich, I would vote for Santorum in a heartbeat
against Obama or any Democrat.

calvin · External Since: Feb 07, 2009 Posts: 505

On Friday, March 16, 2012 11:11:42 PM UTC-4, David Oberman wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 08:11:52 -0700 (PDT), calvin wrote:
>
> >But what the movie didn't say or imply was that
> >he was criminal in his age-indifferent behavior
> >and in his exploitation of students.
>
> Maybe you're looking for too-explicit a censure of him. Wasn't he
> portrayed all in all as an opportunistic lech without scruple,
> professional or sexual? It was the choirmaster--a bachelor, too--who
> was treated as a model of stability & ethical behavior.

But my point is that in abuse of the teacher-student
relationship, it's not a question of passing judgement
on the teacher's psychology or morality, but rather on
his criminal behavior. I don't care that he's a lech.
I care that he abused students.

> >Basically, his comeuppance was that the girl who
> >posed nude for him, and even called herself his
> >lover (though presumably still virginal), realized
> >that he cared only for Miss Brodie, and told him
> >off and left him on that account. For his true
> >crime he was never indicted, by student, teacher,
> >or filmmaker.
> >
> >Miss Brodie's comeuppance, on the other hand, was
> >quite thorough and all-encompassing.
>
> You see this thing as basically a morality tale? I don't see the movie
> (or the book) that way at all. I see it as a story of the dangerous
> allure of personality & a satire of a sort of art-for-art's-sake
> decadence.

No, I was just trying to point out the difference in
the way the filmmakers treated Miss Brodie and the art
teacher. I don't have any notion of how to classify
this movie except in the sense in which I watched it,
as a 'classroom movie'.

Mack A. Damia · External Since: Aug 28, 2010 Posts: 180

On Sat, 17 Mar 2012 00:41:18 -0700 (PDT), calvin
wrote:

>I remember the fuss about Ashcroft in the early
>years of the Bush administration, and I saw nothing
>whatever wrong with the man. It appeared to be just
>genned-up hysteria by the left, with no basis
>whatsoever. John Bolton was another such target of
>leftist dislike that had no valid cause. Fie on the
>left. Just two reasons from recent years why I know
>lefties can't be trusted, and why since 1988 they
>haven't gotten my votes. Though I prefer Romney and
>Gingrich, I would vote for Santorum in a heartbeat
>against Obama or any Democrat.

Good for you. Exercerising your constitutional rights.

Tod bad that elderly black man won't be able to cast his vote because
of dastardly Republican antics.
--