Night and the City (1950)

testing · External Since: Oct 20, 2009 Posts: 2

Just saw Dassin's "Night and the City". A great movie. Richard Widmark
is a small-time hustler trying to fast talk his way to scoring the big
one. And, there aren't many who can play a crook better than Herbert
Lom. though Francis L. Sullivan comes close. Reminded me of "Odd Man
Out" - the city, here London rather than Dublin, is dangerous, dark,
menacing and ultimately deadly. Cinematography is outstanding. Though
I thought the wrestling match was a bit much - too many kidney punches,
and too long. Any thoughts on this last?
--
FUB

william · External Since: Apr 16, 2009 Posts: 94

On Oct 20, 4:45 pm, test....TakeThisOut@deadiguana.net wrote:
> Just saw Dassin's "Night and the City". A great movie. Richard Widmark
> is a small-time hustler trying to fast talk his way to scoring the big
> one. And, there aren't many who can play a crook better than Herbert
> Lom. though Francis L. Sullivan comes close. Reminded me of "Odd Man
> Out" - the city, here London rather than Dublin, is dangerous, dark,
> menacing and ultimately deadly. Cinematography is outstanding. Though
> I thought the wrestling match was a bit much - too many kidney punches,
> and too long. Any thoughts on this last?
> --

The flick's a winner in my book and one of the few films called "film
noir" that actually is film noir. Dassin finally got to cut loose
after being strangled by the studios. "Thieves' Highway" is a perfect
example of why he wasn't so reluctant to leave. You might be right
about the wrestling match. Then again, imo, it's a minor flaw in a
really good movie.

William
www.williamahearn.com

rmjon23 · External Since: May 18, 2007 Posts: 3

On Oct 20, 1:45ï¿½pm, test....DeleteThis@deadiguana.net wrote:
> Just saw Dassin's "Night and the City". ï¿½A great movie. ï¿½Richard Widmark
> is a small-time hustler trying to fast talk his way to scoring the big
> one. ï¿½And, there aren't many who can play a crook better than Herbert
> Lom. though Francis L. Sullivan comes close. ï¿½Reminded me of "Odd Man
> Out" - the city, here London rather than Dublin, is dangerous, dark,
> menacing and ultimately deadly. ï¿½Cinematography is outstanding. ï¿½Though
> I thought the wrestling match was a bit much - too many kidney punches,
> and too long. ï¿½Any thoughts on this last? ï¿½ ï¿½
> --
> FUB

I thought Odd Man Out was set in Northern Ireland, or near the border?
It's been a while.

Kingo Gondo · External Since: Apr 07, 2006 Posts: 520

<testing DeleteThis @deadiguana.net> wrote in message
news:7k6lqpF38f1tuU1@mid.individual.net...
> Just saw Dassin's "Night and the City". A great movie. Richard Widmark
> is a small-time hustler trying to fast talk his way to scoring the big
> one. And, there aren't many who can play a crook better than Herbert
> Lom. though Francis L. Sullivan comes close. Reminded me of "Odd Man
> Out" - the city, here London rather than Dublin, is dangerous, dark,
> menacing and ultimately deadly. Cinematography is outstanding. Though
> I thought the wrestling match was a bit much - too many kidney punches,
> and too long. Any thoughts on this last?
> --
> FUB

That is an interesting comparison, because I think more people are reminded
of The Third Man. Certainly Harry Fabian v. Harry Lime, the steel cage death
match, would be interesting.

Dave in Toronto · External Since: Apr 16, 2007 Posts: 104

On Oct 20, 7:22 pm, rmjon23 <rmjo... DeleteThis @aol.com> wrote:
> On Oct 20, 1:45 pm, test... DeleteThis @deadiguana.net wrote:
>
> > Just saw Dassin's "Night and the City". A great movie. Richard Widmark
> > is a small-time hustler trying to fast talk his way to scoring the big
> > one. And, there aren't many who can play a crook better than Herbert
> > Lom. though Francis L. Sullivan comes close. Reminded me of "Odd Man
> > Out" - the city, here London rather than Dublin, is dangerous, dark,
> > menacing and ultimately deadly. Cinematography is outstanding. Though
> > I thought the wrestling match was a bit much - too many kidney punches,
> > and too long. Any thoughts on this last?
> > --
> > FUB
>
> I thought Odd Man Out was set in Northern Ireland, or near the border?
> It's been a while.

Belfast.

Dave in Toronto

Dave in Toronto · External Since: Apr 16, 2007 Posts: 104

On Oct 20, 5:31 pm, "Kingo Gondo" <kingo_nospam_go....DeleteThis@gmail.com>
wrote:
> <test....DeleteThis@deadiguana.net> wrote in message
>
> news:7k6lqpF38f1tuU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> > Just saw Dassin's "Night and the City". A great movie. Richard Widmark
> > is a small-time hustler trying to fast talk his way to scoring the big
> > one. And, there aren't many who can play a crook better than Herbert
> > Lom. though Francis L. Sullivan comes close. Reminded me of "Odd Man
> > Out" - the city, here London rather than Dublin, is dangerous, dark,
> > menacing and ultimately deadly. Cinematography is outstanding. Though
> > I thought the wrestling match was a bit much - too many kidney punches,
> > and too long. Any thoughts on this last?
> > --
> > FUB
>
> That is an interesting comparison, because I think more people are reminded
> of The Third Man. Certainly Harry Fabian v. Harry Lime, the steel cage death
> match, would be interesting.

I'd take Harry Lime. Fabian was just a low-rent street hustler.
Graham Greene based Harry Lime on his ex-boss Kim Philby.

Dave in Toronto

william · External Since: Apr 16, 2009 Posts: 94

On Oct 20, 9:54 pm, Dave in Toronto <dmatthew... DeleteThis @sympatico.ca> wrote:

> Graham Greene based Harry Lime on his ex-boss Kim Philby.
>
That's ridiculous. Lime bears no similarities with Philby. None. A
trivial reference based on numerology.

William
www.williamahearn.com

Mark · External Since: Jan 10, 2009 Posts: 15

On Oct 20, 8:54 pm, Dave in Toronto <dmatthew....RemoveThis@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> On Oct 20, 5:31 pm, "Kingo Gondo" <kingo_nospam_go....RemoveThis@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > <test....RemoveThis@deadiguana.net> wrote in message
>
> >news:7k6lqpF38f1tuU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> > > Just saw Dassin's "Night and the City". A great movie. Richard Widmark
> > > is a small-time hustler trying to fast talk his way to scoring the big
> > > one. And, there aren't many who can play a crook better than Herbert
> > > Lom. though Francis L. Sullivan comes close. Reminded me of "Odd Man
> > > Out" - the city, here London rather than Dublin, is dangerous, dark,
> > > menacing and ultimately deadly. Cinematography is outstanding. Though
> > > I thought the wrestling match was a bit much - too many kidney punches,
> > > and too long. Any thoughts on this last?
> > > --
> > > FUB
>
> > That is an interesting comparison, because I think more people are reminded
> > of The Third Man. Certainly Harry Fabian v. Harry Lime, the steel cage death
> > match, would be interesting.
>
> I'd take Harry Lime. Fabian was just a low-rent street hustler.
> Graham Greene based Harry Lime on his ex-boss Kim Philby.
>
> Dave in Toronto- Hide quoted text -
>

Sorry, but that's complete hogwash. I've been studying Greene for
years and have never come across that one. Do you have some personal
knowledge of Greene's thought process?

testing · External Since: Oct 20, 2009 Posts: 2

rmjon23 wrote:

> On Oct 20, 1:45ï¿½pm, test....DeleteThis@deadiguana.net wrote:
>> Just saw Dassin's "Night and the City". ï¿½A great movie. ï¿½Richard
>> Widmark is a small-time hustler trying to fast talk his way to
>> scoring the big one. ï¿½And, there aren't many who can play a crook
>> better than Herbert Lom. though Francis L. Sullivan comes close.
>> ï¿½Reminded me of "Odd Man Out" - the city, here London rather than
>> Dublin, is dangerous, dark, menacing and ultimately deadly.
>> ï¿½Cinematography is outstanding. ï¿½Though I thought the wrestling match
>> was a bit much - too many kidney punches, and too long. ï¿½Any thoughts
>> on this last? ï¿½ ï¿½ --
>> FUB
>
> I thought Odd Man Out was set in Northern Ireland, or near the border?
> It's been a while.

You're right, of course. Belfast. Sometimes the fingers move faster
than the brain.
--
FUB

Dave in Toronto · External Since: Apr 16, 2007 Posts: 104

On Oct 21, 12:50 am, Mark <weiss.sl... DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Oct 20, 8:54 pm, Dave in Toronto <dmatthew... DeleteThis @sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 20, 5:31 pm, "Kingo Gondo" <kingo_nospam_go... DeleteThis @gmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > <test... DeleteThis @deadiguana.net> wrote in message
>
> > >news:7k6lqpF38f1tuU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> > > > Just saw Dassin's "Night and the City". A great movie. Richard Widmark
> > > > is a small-time hustler trying to fast talk his way to scoring the big
> > > > one. And, there aren't many who can play a crook better than Herbert
> > > > Lom. though Francis L. Sullivan comes close. Reminded me of "Odd Man
> > > > Out" - the city, here London rather than Dublin, is dangerous, dark,
> > > > menacing and ultimately deadly. Cinematography is outstanding. Though
> > > > I thought the wrestling match was a bit much - too many kidney punches,
> > > > and too long. Any thoughts on this last?
> > > > --
> > > > FUB
>
> > > That is an interesting comparison, because I think more people are reminded
> > > of The Third Man. Certainly Harry Fabian v. Harry Lime, the steel cage death
> > > match, would be interesting.
>
> > I'd take Harry Lime. Fabian was just a low-rent street hustler.
> > Graham Greene based Harry Lime on his ex-boss Kim Philby.
>
> > Dave in Toronto- Hide quoted text -
>
> Sorry, but that's complete hogwash. I've been studying Greene for
> years and have never come across that one. Do you have some personal
> knowledge of Greene's thought process?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

No I don't but I do know that Greene, like most writers, often based
his characters on people he had known and worked with and I don't
think it's quite the stretch that you guys think it is. There is
certainly no physical resemblence between Orson Welles' Harry Lime and
Kim Philby but both were charmers, amoral and convincing liars.

If you do a Google search on Harry Lime + Kim Philby you come up with
close to 4,000 hits, haven't the time to read them all but here's a
selection from the few I did read.

http://www.thethirdman.net/media/daily_telegraph.pdf

"After his defection in 1963, the spy Kim Philby was referred to as
"the third man",
following the earlier defections of Burgess and Maclean. In the early
1940s Philby
had been Greene's boss at the Secret Intelligence Service and almost
certainly
served as the model for Harry Lime."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Philby

"After the defection of his two friends, Philby was asked to resign
from SIS, and he spent the next several years

being questioned by MI5 and SIS. Since he did not break, however, he
was finally cleared of being the "Third Man"

by the Foreign Secretary Harold Macmillan in the House of Commons.
Eventually he was re-employed as an SIS agent,

with the cover as a correspondent in Beirut for The Observer and The
Economist."

"When Maclean was identified in April 1951, surveillance commenced to
obtain evidence independent of Venona, as the

US and UK did not want to reveal the existence of Venona. Maclean
defected to Moscow with Guy Burgess a month later

in May 1951. Philby came under instant suspicion as the "Third Man"
who had tipped them off."

http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/europe/on-the-trail-of-the-third-m...1779125

"The sewers I was now descending with Brigitte provide the
unforgettable backdrop to the film's climax when Harry

vainly attempts to cheat death for a second time by disappearing into
the labyrinth. Today, Vienna's Sewer

Department, seeing a rare revenue opportunity, encourage Harry Lime
fans to descend at the less exorbitant price of

€€17 (£14.80). As I continued following Brigitte, who's been running
her Third Man Tours for 21 years, she filled

me in on the espionage background to Greene's screenplay.

"Kim Philby was the third to defect after Burgess and McLean and so
was often referred to as the Third Man. He was

a good friend of Greene's as well as his boss at the Secret
Intelligence Service, and prior to that he'd spent 1933

and 1934 in Vienna assisting fascist resisters to escape through the
sewers." Brigitte raised her voice as the

sound of rushing water grew ever closer. "It's a little-known fact
that Philby's first name was actually Harold or

Harry; and lime of course is another shade of green. As a spy himself,
Greene loved to pepper his stories with such

allusions." Clearly Brigitte liked to do exactly the same with hers,
and as the author of the definitive book on

The Third Man, she had plenty of them."

There you go, even the "Third Man" tour guides are going for it so
please don't shoot the messenger just email the Viennese Tourist Board
and tell then they're full of it.

For the record Graham Greene himself denies the connection but then he
would wouldn't he? He and Philby were good friends.

Dave in Toronto

Mark · External Since: Jan 10, 2009 Posts: 15

On Oct 21, 1:45 am, Dave in Toronto <dmatthew... RemoveThis @sympatico.ca> wrote:
> On Oct 21, 12:50 am, Mark <weiss.sl... RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 20, 8:54 pm, Dave in Toronto <dmatthew... RemoveThis @sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 20, 5:31 pm, "Kingo Gondo" <kingo_nospam_go... RemoveThis @gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > <test... RemoveThis @deadiguana.net> wrote in message
>
> > > >news:7k6lqpF38f1tuU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> > > > > Just saw Dassin's "Night and the City". A great movie. Richard Widmark
> > > > > is a small-time hustler trying to fast talk his way to scoring the big
> > > > > one. And, there aren't many who can play a crook better than Herbert
> > > > > Lom. though Francis L. Sullivan comes close. Reminded me of "Odd Man
> > > > > Out" - the city, here London rather than Dublin, is dangerous, dark,
> > > > > menacing and ultimately deadly. Cinematography is outstanding. Though
> > > > > I thought the wrestling match was a bit much - too many kidney punches,
> > > > > and too long. Any thoughts on this last?
> > > > > --
> > > > > FUB
>
> > > > That is an interesting comparison, because I think more people are reminded
> > > > of The Third Man. Certainly Harry Fabian v. Harry Lime, the steel cage death
> > > > match, would be interesting.
>
> > > I'd take Harry Lime. Fabian was just a low-rent street hustler.
> > > Graham Greene based Harry Lime on his ex-boss Kim Philby.
>
> > > Dave in Toronto- Hide quoted text -
>
> > Sorry, but that's complete hogwash. I've been studying Greene for
> > years and have never come across that one. Do you have some personal
> > knowledge of Greene's thought process?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> No I don't but I do know that Greene, like most writers, often based
> his characters on people he had known and worked with and I don't
> think it's quite the stretch that you guys think it is.

It's certainly a stretch to say "Greene based his character on Kim
Philby" when no evidence exists to suggest he did.
It would certainly be accurate to say that the media has said that he
did but that's quite a different thing. Considering the volumes of
stuff that Greene has left us and his omnipresence for so many decades
I would venture to say that if Greene had actually based Lime on
Philby there would exist tons of quotes from Greene to that effect. He
wasn't shy about speaking his mind. Since that doesn't exist, I think
we can conclude that he did no such thing.

william · External Since: Apr 16, 2009 Posts: 94

On Oct 21, 6:30 am, "Stone me" <sun....TakeThisOut@boulevard.hwd> wrote:

> It's a little fuzzy in my memory, but I think the media even used the term
> "The fourth man" to refer to someone who later became outed:
> Surveyor of the Queen's Pictures, Anthony Blunt.
>
If I recall accurately, Brit intelligence -- based on spying on the
Soviets -- knew there was a "ring of five" of Soviet-paid spies in the
British government. The first two -- Burgess and Maclean -- were found
out first but they escaped. Philby was the third and Blount the fourth
man and his involvement was hushed up until the Thatcher
administration based on his cooperation. The fifth man was never
identified and whether there were more than five is a matter of
contention. Several people have confessed to it and numerous others
suspected. Harry Lime was a piker compared to Philby and Greene would
know the difference. Philby was a masterful spy and Lime a black
marketeer. The comparisons are silly, superficial and -- most
importantly -- unnecessary. Each story has no need of the other. This
kind of junk scholarship really ticks me off. Not directed toward the
messenger, Dave. Hope we're still friends.

William
www.williamahearn.com

Dave in Toronto · External Since: Apr 16, 2007 Posts: 104

> It's a little fuzzy in my memory, but I think the media even used the term
> "The fourth man" to refer to someone who later became outed:
> Surveyor of the Queen's Pictures, Anthony Blunt.
>
> Stone me.

There was a book _Fourth Man_ by Donald Sutherland about Blunt.

Dave in Toronto

Stone me · External Since: Jan 11, 2009 Posts: 25

"Dave in Toronto" <dmatthews03 DeleteThis @sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:64a9dba7-6d33-4f3c-9dcf-
>snips
No I don't but I do know that Greene, like most writers, often based
his characters on people he had known and worked with and I don't
think it's quite the stretch that you guys think it is. There is
certainly no physical resemblence between Orson Welles' Harry Lime and
Kim Philby but both were charmers, amoral and convincing liars.

If you do a Google search on Harry Lime + Kim Philby you come up with
close to 4,000 hits, haven't the time to read them all but here's a
selection from the few I did read.

http://www.thethirdman.net/media/daily_telegraph.pdf

"After his defection in 1963, the spy Kim Philby was referred to as
"the third man",
following the earlier defections of Burgess and Maclean. In the early
1940s Philby
had been Greene's boss at the Secret Intelligence Service and almost
certainly
served as the model for Harry Lime."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Philby

"After the defection of his two friends, Philby was asked to resign
from SIS, and he spent the next several years
being questioned by MI5 and SIS. Since he did not break, however, he
was finally cleared of being the "Third Man"
by the Foreign Secretary Harold Macmillan in the House of Commons.
Eventually he was re-employed as an SIS agent,
with the cover as a correspondent in Beirut for The Observer and The
Economist."
"When Maclean was identified in April 1951, surveillance commenced to
obtain evidence independent of Venona, as the
US and UK did not want to reveal the existence of Venona. Maclean
defected to Moscow with Guy Burgess a month later
in May 1951. Philby came under instant suspicion as the "Third Man"
who had tipped them off."

http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/europe/on-the-trail-of-the-third-m...1779125

"The sewers I was now descending with Brigitte provide the
unforgettable backdrop to the film's climax when Harry
vainly attempts to cheat death for a second time by disappearing into
the labyrinth. Today, Vienna's Sewer

Department, seeing a rare revenue opportunity, encourage Harry Lime
fans to descend at the less exorbitant price of
€€17 (£14.80). As I continued following Brigitte, who's been running
her Third Man Tours for 21 years, she filled
me in on the espionage background to Greene's screenplay.

"Kim Philby was the third to defect after Burgess and McLean and so
was often referred to as the Third Man. He was
a good friend of Greene's as well as his boss at the Secret
Intelligence Service, and prior to that he'd spent 1933
and 1934 in Vienna assisting fascist resisters to escape through the
sewers." Brigitte raised her voice as the
sound of rushing water grew ever closer. "It's a little-known fact
that Philby's first name was actually Harold or
Harry; and lime of course is another shade of green. As a spy himself,
Greene loved to pepper his stories with such
allusions." Clearly Brigitte liked to do exactly the same with hers,
and as the author of the definitive book on
The Third Man, she had plenty of them."

There you go, even the "Third Man" tour guides are going for it so
please don't shoot the messenger just email the Viennese Tourist Board
and tell then they're full of it.
For the record Graham Greene himself denies the connection but then he
would wouldn't he? He and Philby were good friends.

Dave in Toronto

I've snipped some of the above for space, including blank lines.
"The Third Man" seems ro be from 1947.
All the references to Philby seem later than this. I suggest that the media
appropriated the film title and assigned it to the Philby case.
Greene may well have had an early knowledge of Philby's character, but
it seems difficult to maintain your suggestion.
Perhaps someone will trawl up some solid evidence, which would be
interesting.
Drifting off the main topic,
It's a little fuzzy in my memory, but I think the media even used the term
"The fourth man" to refer to someone who later became outed:
Surveyor of the Queen's Pictures, Anthony Blunt.

Stone me.

Dave in Toronto · External Since: Apr 16, 2007 Posts: 104

On Oct 21, 8:58 am, william <wlahe....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 21, 6:30 am, "Stone me" <sun....RemoveThis@boulevard.hwd> wrote:
>
> > It's a little fuzzy in my memory, but I think the media even used the term
> > "The fourth man" to refer to someone who later became outed:
> > Surveyor of the Queen's Pictures, Anthony Blunt.
>
> If I recall accurately, Brit intelligence -- based on spying on the
> Soviets -- knew there was a "ring of five" of Soviet-paid spies in the
> British government. The first two -- Burgess and Maclean -- were found
> out first but they escaped. Philby was the third and Blount the fourth
> man and his involvement was hushed up until the Thatcher
> administration based on his cooperation. The fifth man was never
> identified and whether there were more than five is a matter of
> contention. Several people have confessed to it and numerous others
> suspected. Harry Lime was a piker compared to Philby and Greene would
> know the difference. Philby was a masterful spy and Lime a black
> marketeer. The comparisons are silly, superficial and -- most
> importantly -- unnecessary. Each story has no need of the other. This
> kind of junk scholarship really ticks me off. Not directed toward the
> messenger, Dave. Hope we're still friends.
>
> Williamwww.williamahearn.com

Yes we are.

Maybe Greene was the fifth man (tee-hee).

Dave in Toronto

Dave in Toronto · External Since: Apr 16, 2007 Posts: 104

On Oct 21, 10:11 am, Dave in Toronto <dmatthew....RemoveThis@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> On Oct 21, 8:58 am, william <wlahe....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 21, 6:30 am, "Stone me" <sun....RemoveThis@boulevard.hwd> wrote:
>
> > > It's a little fuzzy in my memory, but I think the media even used the term
> > > "The fourth man" to refer to someone who later became outed:
> > > Surveyor of the Queen's Pictures, Anthony Blunt.
>
> > If I recall accurately, Brit intelligence -- based on spying on the
> > Soviets -- knew there was a "ring of five" of Soviet-paid spies in the
> > British government. The first two -- Burgess and Maclean -- were found
> > out first but they escaped. Philby was the third and Blount the fourth
> > man and his involvement was hushed up until the Thatcher
> > administration based on his cooperation. The fifth man was never
> > identified and whether there were more than five is a matter of
> > contention. Several people have confessed to it and numerous others
> > suspected. Harry Lime was a piker compared to Philby and Greene would
> > know the difference. Philby was a masterful spy and Lime a black
> > marketeer. The comparisons are silly, superficial and -- most
> > importantly -- unnecessary. Each story has no need of the other. This
> > kind of junk scholarship really ticks me off. Not directed toward the
> > messenger, Dave. Hope we're still friends.
>
> > Williamwww.williamahearn.com
>
> Yes we are.
>
> Maybe Greene was the fifth man (tee-hee).
>
> Dave in Toronto- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Just remembered there was a BBC mini-series a few back about the whole
affair _Cambridge Spies_ - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0346223/#comment

Saw parts of it but didn't like it much. Got good reviews though.

Dave in Toronto

Jim Beaver · External Since: Dec 08, 2004 Posts: 1422

"Dave in Toronto" <dmatthews03.RemoveThis@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:62cb8974-a4a3-419c-9160-e24625c8e95c@h2g2000vbd.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 21, 10:11 am, Dave in Toronto <dmatthew....RemoveThis@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> On Oct 21, 8:58 am, william <wlahe....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 21, 6:30 am, "Stone me" <sun....RemoveThis@boulevard.hwd> wrote:
>
> > > It's a little fuzzy in my memory, but I think the media even used the
> > > term
> > > "The fourth man" to refer to someone who later became outed:
> > > Surveyor of the Queen's Pictures, Anthony Blunt.
>
> > If I recall accurately, Brit intelligence -- based on spying on the
> > Soviets -- knew there was a "ring of five" of Soviet-paid spies in the
> > British government. The first two -- Burgess and Maclean -- were found
> > out first but they escaped. Philby was the third and Blount the fourth
> > man and his involvement was hushed up until the Thatcher
> > administration based on his cooperation. The fifth man was never
> > identified and whether there were more than five is a matter of
> > contention. Several people have confessed to it and numerous others
> > suspected. Harry Lime was a piker compared to Philby and Greene would
> > know the difference. Philby was a masterful spy and Lime a black
> > marketeer. The comparisons are silly, superficial and -- most
> > importantly -- unnecessary. Each story has no need of the other. This
> > kind of junk scholarship really ticks me off. Not directed toward the
> > messenger, Dave. Hope we're still friends.
>
> > Williamwww.williamahearn.com
>
> Yes we are.
>
> Maybe Greene was the fifth man (tee-hee).
>
> Dave in Toronto- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Just remembered there was a BBC mini-series a few back about the whole
affair _Cambridge Spies_ - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0346223/#comment

RESPONSE:

There's also BLUNT (1985) http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0088832/, with Anthony
Hopkins as Guy Burgess, one of two films that instigated my fascination with
the case. The other was AN ENGLISHMAN ABROAD (1983)
http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0085492/, with Alan Bates as Burgess, an
absolutely fascinating follow-up to the story, with actress Coral Browne
playing herself in the true story of how she ran into the long-since
defected Burgess years later in Moscow. This one is simply splendid.

Derek Jacobi played Burgess in a TV film, PHILBY, BURGESS, AND MACLEAN
(1977). I haven't seen that one.

Jim Beaver

Dave in Toronto · External Since: Apr 16, 2007 Posts: 104

On Oct 21, 8:22 am, Mark <weiss.sl....DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Oct 21, 1:45 am, Dave in Toronto <dmatthew....DeleteThis@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 21, 12:50 am, Mark <weiss.sl....DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 20, 8:54 pm, Dave in Toronto <dmatthew....DeleteThis@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> > > > On Oct 20, 5:31 pm, "Kingo Gondo" <kingo_nospam_go....DeleteThis@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > <test....DeleteThis@deadiguana.net> wrote in message
>
> > > > >news:7k6lqpF38f1tuU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> > > > > > Just saw Dassin's "Night and the City". A great movie. Richard Widmark
> > > > > > is a small-time hustler trying to fast talk his way to scoring the big
> > > > > > one. And, there aren't many who can play a crook better than Herbert
> > > > > > Lom. though Francis L. Sullivan comes close. Reminded me of "Odd Man
> > > > > > Out" - the city, here London rather than Dublin, is dangerous, dark,
> > > > > > menacing and ultimately deadly. Cinematography is outstanding. Though
> > > > > > I thought the wrestling match was a bit much - too many kidney punches,
> > > > > > and too long. Any thoughts on this last?
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > FUB
>
> > > > > That is an interesting comparison, because I think more people are reminded
> > > > > of The Third Man. Certainly Harry Fabian v. Harry Lime, the steel cage death
> > > > > match, would be interesting.
>
> > > > I'd take Harry Lime. Fabian was just a low-rent street hustler.
> > > > Graham Greene based Harry Lime on his ex-boss Kim Philby.
>
> > > > Dave in Toronto- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > Sorry, but that's complete hogwash. I've been studying Greene for
> > > years and have never come across that one. Do you have some personal
> > > knowledge of Greene's thought process?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > No I don't but I do know that Greene, like most writers, often based
> > his characters on people he had known and worked with and I don't
> > think it's quite the stretch that you guys think it is.
>
> It's certainly a stretch to say "Greene based his character on Kim
> Philby" when no evidence exists to suggest he did.
> It would certainly be accurate to say that the media has said that he
> did but that's quite a different thing. Considering the volumes of
> stuff that Greene has left us and his omnipresence for so many decades
> I would venture to say that if Greene had actually based Lime on
> Philby there would exist tons of quotes from Greene to that effect. He
> wasn't shy about speaking his mind. Since that doesn't exist, I think
> we can conclude that he did no such thing.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Whatever the truth it appears to be drifting into movie nostalgia as a
fact. Interesting to read imdb's trivia on the movie -http://
www.imdb.com/title/tt0041959/trivia - Quiet a few of their "facts"
are questionable I have to admit.

Dave in Toronto

Halmyre · External Since: Jan 19, 2009 Posts: 20

In article <hbnjq3$jnd$1@news.eternal-september.org>, jumblejim DeleteThis @prodigy.spam
says...
>
> "Dave in Toronto" <dmatthews03 DeleteThis @sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:62cb8974-a4a3-419c-9160-e24625c8e95c@h2g2000vbd.googlegroups.com...
> On Oct 21, 10:11 am, Dave in Toronto <dmatthew... DeleteThis @sympatico.ca> wrote:
> > On Oct 21, 8:58 am, william <wlahe... DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Oct 21, 6:30 am, "Stone me" <sun... DeleteThis @boulevard.hwd> wrote:
> >
> > > > It's a little fuzzy in my memory, but I think the media even used the
> > > > term
> > > > "The fourth man" to refer to someone who later became outed:
> > > > Surveyor of the Queen's Pictures, Anthony Blunt.
> >
> > > If I recall accurately, Brit intelligence -- based on spying on the
> > > Soviets -- knew there was a "ring of five" of Soviet-paid spies in the
> > > British government. The first two -- Burgess and Maclean -- were found
> > > out first but they escaped. Philby was the third and Blount the fourth
> > > man and his involvement was hushed up until the Thatcher
> > > administration based on his cooperation. The fifth man was never
> > > identified and whether there were more than five is a matter of
> > > contention. Several people have confessed to it and numerous others
> > > suspected. Harry Lime was a piker compared to Philby and Greene would
> > > know the difference. Philby was a masterful spy and Lime a black
> > > marketeer. The comparisons are silly, superficial and -- most
> > > importantly -- unnecessary. Each story has no need of the other. This
> > > kind of junk scholarship really ticks me off. Not directed toward the
> > > messenger, Dave. Hope we're still friends.
> >
> > > Williamwww.williamahearn.com
> >
> > Yes we are.
> >
> > Maybe Greene was the fifth man (tee-hee).
> >
> > Dave in Toronto- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > - Show quoted text -
>
>
> Just remembered there was a BBC mini-series a few back about the whole
> affair _Cambridge Spies_ - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0346223/#comment
>
> RESPONSE:
>
> There's also BLUNT (1985) http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0088832/, with Anthony
> Hopkins as Guy Burgess, one of two films that instigated my fascination with
> the case. The other was AN ENGLISHMAN ABROAD (1983)
> http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0085492/, with Alan Bates as Burgess, an
> absolutely fascinating follow-up to the story, with actress Coral Browne
> playing herself in the true story of how she ran into the long-since
> defected Burgess years later in Moscow. This one is simply splendid.
>
> Derek Jacobi played Burgess in a TV film, PHILBY, BURGESS, AND MACLEAN
> (1977). I haven't seen that one.
>

Frederick Forsyth's novel "The Fourth Protocol" features Kim Philby in a
fairly major role, but the film adaptation disposes of him early on in the
plot.

--
Halmyre

This is the most powerful sigfile in the world and will probably blow your
head clean off.

Mark · External Since: Jan 10, 2009 Posts: 15

On Oct 21, 2:27 pm, Dave in Toronto <dmatthew... DeleteThis @sympatico.ca> wrote:
> On Oct 21, 8:22 am, Mark <weiss.sl... DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 21, 1:45 am, Dave in Toronto <dmatthew... DeleteThis @sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 21, 12:50 am, Mark <weiss.sl... DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Oct 20, 8:54 pm, Dave in Toronto <dmatthew... DeleteThis @sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Oct 20, 5:31 pm, "Kingo Gondo" <kingo_nospam_go... DeleteThis @gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > <test... DeleteThis @deadiguana.net> wrote in message
>
> > > > > >news:7k6lqpF38f1tuU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> > > > > > > Just saw Dassin's "Night and the City". A great movie. Richard Widmark
> > > > > > > is a small-time hustler trying to fast talk his way to scoring the big
> > > > > > > one. And, there aren't many who can play a crook better than Herbert
> > > > > > > Lom. though Francis L. Sullivan comes close. Reminded me of "Odd Man
> > > > > > > Out" - the city, here London rather than Dublin, is dangerous, dark,
> > > > > > > menacing and ultimately deadly. Cinematography is outstanding. Though
> > > > > > > I thought the wrestling match was a bit much - too many kidney punches,
> > > > > > > and too long. Any thoughts on this last?
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > FUB
>
> > > > > > That is an interesting comparison, because I think more people are reminded
> > > > > > of The Third Man. Certainly Harry Fabian v. Harry Lime, the steel cage death
> > > > > > match, would be interesting.
>
> > > > > I'd take Harry Lime. Fabian was just a low-rent street hustler..
> > > > > Graham Greene based Harry Lime on his ex-boss Kim Philby.
>
> > > > > Dave in Toronto- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > Sorry, but that's complete hogwash. I've been studying Greene for
> > > > years and have never come across that one. Do you have some personal
> > > > knowledge of Greene's thought process?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > No I don't but I do know that Greene, like most writers, often based
> > > his characters on people he had known and worked with and I don't
> > > think it's quite the stretch that you guys think it is.
>
> > It's certainly a stretch to say "Greene based his character on Kim
> > Philby" when no evidence exists to suggest he did.
> > It would certainly be accurate to say that the media has said that he
> > did but that's quite a different thing. Considering the volumes of
> > stuff that Greene has left us and his omnipresence for so many decades
> > I would venture to say that if Greene had actually based Lime on
> > Philby there would exist tons of quotes from Greene to that effect. He
> > wasn't shy about speaking his mind. Since that doesn't exist, I think
> > we can conclude that he did no such thing.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Whatever the truth it appears to be drifting into movie nostalgia as a
> fact. Interesting to read imdb's trivia on the movie -http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0041959/trivia- Quiet a few of their "facts"
> are questionable I have to admit.
>
> Dave in Toronto- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

For every one thing that IMDB gets right, they get at least two things
wrong!