Hindu Triad: Creator, Protector, Destroyer

 
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JPM III
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Since: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 1722



PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2004 4:39 pm    Post subject: Hindu Triad: Creator, Protector, Destroyer
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*poke*

*prod*

Three principal Hindu deities are Brahma (creator), Vishnu (protector), and
Shiva (destroyer). Without any further implications, I was comparing their
roles in Hinduism to various roles in the Matrix, and it left me unsure
about one thing: who is the destroyer in the Matrix?

It seems quite reasonable that the Architect would compare best to Brahma,
and the Oracle would compare best to Vishnu. But who would compare to Shiva?
Smith? The Merovingian? Neo? Deus Ex Machina? I could make arguments for why
each of these could play the role of destroyer in this three-pronged
analogy, depending on how the organizational structure of the machines'
collective intelligence.
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Sean
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Since: Jul 04, 2003
Posts: 35



PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2004 8:45 am    Post subject: Re: Hindu Triad: Creator, Protector, Destroyer [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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JPM III wrote:

> Three principal Hindu deities are Brahma (creator), Vishnu (protector), and
> Shiva (destroyer)...

> But who would compare to Shiva?

Shiva's role might be described more accurately as
the "Agent of Change". By this reasoning therefore the real
avatars of Shiva are the Agents.

Sean
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Sean
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Since: Jul 04, 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2004 5:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Hindu Triad: Creator, Protector, Destroyer [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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JPM III wrote:

> But who would compare to Shiva?

Further to my last --

It's interesting that "Sati" is another name for Kali, one of
the 4 consorts of Shiva.

Sean

ps. the others being Parvati, Uma and Durga
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Gavin Smith
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Since: Oct 10, 2003
Posts: 280



PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Hindu Triad: Creator, Protector, Destroyer [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Arrogantly twisting the sterile canvas snoot of a fully charged icing
anointment utensil, JPM III poots forth...

>Three principal Hindu deities are Brahma (creator), Vishnu (protector), and
>Shiva (destroyer). Without any further implications, I was comparing their
>roles in Hinduism to various roles in the Matrix, and it left me unsure
>about one thing: who is the destroyer in the Matrix?
>
>It seems quite reasonable that the Architect would compare best to Brahma,
>and the Oracle would compare best to Vishnu. But who would compare to Shiva?
>Smith? The Merovingian? Neo? Deus Ex Machina?

Personally, I see Neo in the Vishnu role, with Smith as Shiva.

Of course, Neo has the potential to be all three at various points in
the story.

--
Gavin Smith
--
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SK
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Since: Jul 24, 2004
Posts: 6



PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 12:11 am    Post subject: Re: Hindu Triad: Creator, Protector, Destroyer [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Gavin Smith wrote in message ...
> Arrogantly twisting the sterile canvas snoot of a fully charged icing
> anointment utensil, JPM III poots forth...
>
> >Three principal Hindu deities are Brahma (creator), Vishnu (protector), and
> >Shiva (destroyer). Without any further implications, I was comparing their
> >roles in Hinduism to various roles in the Matrix, and it left me unsure
> >about one thing: who is the destroyer in the Matrix?
> >
> >It seems quite reasonable that the Architect would compare best to Brahma,
> >and the Oracle would compare best to Vishnu. But who would compare to Shiva?
> >Smith? The Merovingian? Neo? Deus Ex Machina?
>
> Personally, I see Neo in the Vishnu role, with Smith as Shiva.
>
> Of course, Neo has the potential to be all three at various points in
> the story.

Your (JPMIII) opinion seems to indicate that Brahma and Vishnu are on
one side and Shiva on the other. That is not true. All these three
Gods are together and are not fighting against one another. Shiva is
the destroyer, yes - he takes care of things that are to be destroyed.
My thinking is a bit different - I believe both the Archie AND Oracle
make Brahma. They are just handling different aspects of creation.
That also explains the role of Sati (I don't believe Sati symbolises
self immolation or sacrifice)... And Neo is incarnation of Vishnu. So
that leaves the original question un-answered .... who is Shiva ?
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Gavin Smith
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Since: Oct 10, 2003
Posts: 280



PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 3:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Hindu Triad: Creator, Protector, Destroyer [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Arrogantly twisting the sterile canvas snoot of a fully charged icing
anointment utensil, SK poots forth...

>Your (JPMIII) opinion seems to indicate that Brahma and Vishnu are on
>one side and Shiva on the other. That is not true. All these three
>Gods are together and are not fighting against one another. Shiva is
>the destroyer, yes - he takes care of things that are to be destroyed.
>My thinking is a bit different - I believe both the Archie AND Oracle
>make Brahma. They are just handling different aspects of creation.
>That also explains the role of Sati (I don't believe Sati symbolises
>self immolation or sacrifice)... And Neo is incarnation of Vishnu. So
>that leaves the original question un-answered .... who is Shiva ?

Maybe it's still Smith - who is unintentionally functioning as a helpful
force, in that the desired reload/peace would not have been possible
without Smith's unprecedented interference, which turned out to be a
very useful negotiating tool for Neo.

In a way, Smith *was* working with Neo-Vishnu and Oracle/Archie-Brahma -
that is, his actions were for the greater good of man and machine,
although he neither knew it, nor intended them to be.

--
Gavin Smith
--
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JPM III
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Since: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 1722



PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 3:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Hindu Triad: Creator, Protector, Destroyer [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Sean wrote in
>
> JPM III wrote:
>
> > Three principal Hindu deities are Brahma (creator), Vishnu
> > (protector), and Shiva (destroyer)...
>
> > But who would compare to Shiva?
>
> Shiva's role might be described more accurately as
> the "Agent of Change". By this reasoning therefore the real
> avatars of Shiva are the Agents.
>
> Sean

Brahma = Architect
Vishnu = Oracle
Shiva = Agents

I can accept that... I'm trying to think of other combinations, and less
significant characters and their Hindu counterparts... Nothing's coming
though.
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JPM III
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Since: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 1722



PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 3:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Hindu Triad: Creator, Protector, Destroyer [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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SK wrote in
>
> Gavin Smith wrote in message
> ...
> > Arrogantly twisting the sterile canvas snoot of a fully charged
> > icing anointment utensil, JPM III poots
> > forth...
> >
> > > Three principal Hindu deities are Brahma (creator), Vishnu
> > > (protector), and Shiva (destroyer). Without any further
> > > implications, I was comparing their roles in Hinduism to various
> > > roles in the Matrix, and it left me unsure about one thing: who
> > > is the destroyer in the Matrix?
> > >
> > > It seems quite reasonable that the Architect would compare best
> > > to Brahma, and the Oracle would compare best to Vishnu. But who
> > > would compare to Shiva? Smith? The Merovingian? Neo? Deus Ex
> > > Machina?
> >
> > Personally, I see Neo in the Vishnu role, with Smith as Shiva.
> >
> > Of course, Neo has the potential to be all three at various points
> > in the story.
>
> Your (JPMIII) opinion seems to indicate that Brahma and Vishnu are on
> one side and Shiva on the other.

No, everyone is on the same side. Everyone wants to survive. Besides, it's
quite obvious that the Architect and Oracle -- despite being ostensibly on
the same side -- oppose each other, at least by methodology. It is a given
that each sentient unit of a system has the capacity to make its own
decisions, and therefore to disagree with others on occasion. But ultimately
everyone is always on the same side, aiming for survival. (Unless psychosis
or something sets in...)


> That is not true. All these three
> Gods are together and are not fighting against one another. Shiva is
> the destroyer, yes - he takes care of things that are to be destroyed.
> My thinking is a bit different - I believe both the Archie AND Oracle
> make Brahma. They are just handling different aspects of creation.
> That also explains the role of Sati (I don't believe Sati symbolises
> self immolation or sacrifice)... And Neo is incarnation of Vishnu. So
> that leaves the original question un-answered .... who is Shiva ?

Well it depends on what we're treating as having been created and needing
the protection.

If the humans are the subjects, then:
Brahma = God?
Vishnu = Neo
Shiva = Architect

If the Matrix is the subject, then:
Brahma = Architect
Vishnu = Oracle
Shiva = Neo? Smith? Agents? Deus ex Machina?
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JPM III
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Since: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 1722



PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 3:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Hindu Triad: Creator, Protector, Destroyer [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Gavin Smith wrote in
>
> Arrogantly twisting the sterile canvas snoot of a fully charged icing
> anointment utensil, SK poots forth...
>
> > Your (JPMIII) opinion seems to indicate that Brahma and Vishnu are
> > on one side and Shiva on the other. That is not true. All these
> > three Gods are together and are not fighting against one another.
> > Shiva is the destroyer, yes - he takes care of things that are to
> > be destroyed. My thinking is a bit different - I believe both the
> > Archie AND Oracle make Brahma. They are just handling different
> > aspects of creation. That also explains the role of Sati (I don't
> > believe Sati symbolises self immolation or sacrifice)... And Neo is
> > incarnation of Vishnu. So that leaves the original question
> > un-answered .... who is Shiva ?
>
> Maybe it's still Smith - who is unintentionally functioning as a
> helpful force, in that the desired reload/peace would not have been
> possible without Smith's unprecedented interference, which turned out
> to be a very useful negotiating tool for Neo.
>
> In a way, Smith *was* working with Neo-Vishnu and
> Oracle/Archie-Brahma - that is, his actions were for the greater good
> of man and machine, although he neither knew it, nor intended them to
> be.

The best manipulation is not understood by the manipulated...
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SK
External


Since: Jul 24, 2004
Posts: 6



PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 8:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Hindu Triad: Creator, Protector, Destroyer [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"JPM III" wrote in message ...
> SK wrote in
> >
> > Gavin Smith wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Arrogantly twisting the sterile canvas snoot of a fully charged
> > > icing anointment utensil, JPM III poots
> > > forth...
> > >
> > > > Three principal Hindu deities are Brahma (creator), Vishnu
> > > > (protector), and Shiva (destroyer). Without any further
> > > > implications, I was comparing their roles in Hinduism to various
> > > > roles in the Matrix, and it left me unsure about one thing: who
> > > > is the destroyer in the Matrix?
> > > >
> > > > It seems quite reasonable that the Architect would compare best
> > > > to Brahma, and the Oracle would compare best to Vishnu. But who
> > > > would compare to Shiva? Smith? The Merovingian? Neo? Deus Ex
> > > > Machina?
> > >
> > > Personally, I see Neo in the Vishnu role, with Smith as Shiva.
> > >
> > > Of course, Neo has the potential to be all three at various points
> > > in the story.
> >
> > Your (JPMIII) opinion seems to indicate that Brahma and Vishnu are on
> > one side and Shiva on the other.
>
> No, everyone is on the same side. Everyone wants to survive. Besides, it's
> quite obvious that the Architect and Oracle -- despite being ostensibly on
> the same side -- oppose each other, at least by methodology. It is a given
> that each sentient unit of a system has the capacity to make its own
> decisions, and therefore to disagree with others on occasion. But ultimately
> everyone is always on the same side, aiming for survival. (Unless psychosis
> or something sets in...)
>
>
> > That is not true. All these three
> > Gods are together and are not fighting against one another. Shiva is
> > the destroyer, yes - he takes care of things that are to be destroyed.
> > My thinking is a bit different - I believe both the Archie AND Oracle
> > make Brahma. They are just handling different aspects of creation.
> > That also explains the role of Sati (I don't believe Sati symbolises
> > self immolation or sacrifice)... And Neo is incarnation of Vishnu. So
> > that leaves the original question un-answered .... who is Shiva ?
>
> Well it depends on what we're treating as having been created and needing
> the protection.
>
> If the humans are the subjects, then:
> Brahma = God?
> Vishnu = Neo
> Shiva = Architect
>
> If the Matrix is the subject, then:
> Brahma = Architect
> Vishnu = Oracle
> Shiva = Neo? Smith? Agents? Deus ex Machina?

I disagree that Shiva is Smith. I still haven't thought who would
Shiva be ...
My perception -
Brahma - Architect, Oracle, Sati
Vishnu - Neo
Shiva - ...

I see more similarity between Smith and Vishnu(Neo) with another story
in Hindu Mythology. Also, Vishnu is the ultimate God. If you find out
how Brahma was born ...

_SK
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threeseas
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Since: Oct 31, 2004
Posts: 2



PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2004 5:59 am    Post subject: Re: Hindu Triad: Creator, Protector, Destroyer [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

JPM III wrote:
> *poke*
>
> *prod*
>
> Three principal Hindu deities are Brahma (creator), Vishnu (protector), and
> Shiva (destroyer). Without any further implications, I was comparing their
> roles in Hinduism to various roles in the Matrix, and it left me unsure
> about one thing: who is the destroyer in the Matrix?
>
> It seems quite reasonable that the Architect would compare best to Brahma,
> and the Oracle would compare best to Vishnu. But who would compare to Shiva?
> Smith? The Merovingian? Neo? Deus Ex Machina? I could make arguments for why
> each of these could play the role of destroyer in this three-pronged
> analogy, depending on how the organizational structure of the machines'
> collective intelligence.
>
>

The Matrix was modeled, inspired, etc... from real life events or
happenings, just like the creation of religions and belief systems
(astrology, I ching, etc..)b along with injecting distrotions and
distraction so as to deal with intellectual property issues...

take a circle and split it into 4 equal pies and then take another
circle and split it into 7 equal peices, then another into 19 unequal
peices...

any one of those circles, with all the peices together is stil a circle...

now what if all the circles are the same original circle, just split up
differently ... for different description of different belief systems of
the whole circle?

that whole circle being the reality of life...

because the matrix was made from references to real life things it is
natural that so many different POVs have come out, yet none of them
actually really fit perfect...

So who are the indian characters parrallel in the movie?

who ever yo0u want them to be for you, for it all really is about
abstraction... teh creation of human works in philosophy...
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SK
External


Since: Jul 24, 2004
Posts: 6



PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2004 10:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Hindu Triad: Creator, Protector, Destroyer [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

threeseas wrote in message ...
> JPM III wrote:
> > *poke*
> >
> > *prod*
> >
> > Three principal Hindu deities are Brahma (creator), Vishnu (protector), and
> > Shiva (destroyer). Without any further implications, I was comparing their
> > roles in Hinduism to various roles in the Matrix, and it left me unsure
> > about one thing: who is the destroyer in the Matrix?
> >
> > It seems quite reasonable that the Architect would compare best to Brahma,
> > and the Oracle would compare best to Vishnu. But who would compare to Shiva?
> > Smith? The Merovingian? Neo? Deus Ex Machina? I could make arguments for why
> > each of these could play the role of destroyer in this three-pronged
> > analogy, depending on how the organizational structure of the machines'
> > collective intelligence.
> >
> >
>
> The Matrix was modeled, inspired, etc... from real life events or
> happenings, just like the creation of religions and belief systems
> (astrology, I ching, etc..)b along with injecting distrotions and
> distraction so as to deal with intellectual property issues...
>
> take a circle and split it into 4 equal pies and then take another
> circle and split it into 7 equal peices, then another into 19 unequal
> peices...
>
> any one of those circles, with all the peices together is stil a circle...
>
> now what if all the circles are the same original circle, just split up
> differently ... for different description of different belief systems of
> the whole circle?
>
> that whole circle being the reality of life...
>
> because the matrix was made from references to real life things it is
> natural that so many different POVs have come out, yet none of them
> actually really fit perfect...
>
> So who are the indian characters parrallel in the movie?
>
> who ever yo0u want them to be for you, for it all really is about
> abstraction... teh creation of human works in philosophy...


I agree with your POV.... so, what's your point ?
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JPM III
External


Since: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 1722



PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2004 6:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Hindu Triad: Creator, Protector, Destroyer [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

SK wrote in
>
> "JPM III" wrote in message
> ...
> > SK wrote in
> > >
> > > Gavin Smith wrote in
> > > message ...
> > > > Arrogantly twisting the sterile canvas snoot of a fully charged
> > > > icing anointment utensil, JPM III poots
> > > > forth...
> > > >
> > > > > Three principal Hindu deities are Brahma (creator), Vishnu
> > > > > (protector), and Shiva (destroyer). Without any further
> > > > > implications, I was comparing their roles in Hinduism to
> > > > > various roles in the Matrix, and it left me unsure about one
> > > > > thing: who is the destroyer in the Matrix?
> > > > >
> > > > > It seems quite reasonable that the Architect would compare
> > > > > best to Brahma, and the Oracle would compare best to Vishnu.
> > > > > But who would compare to Shiva? Smith? The Merovingian? Neo?
> > > > > Deus Ex Machina?
> > > >
> > > > Personally, I see Neo in the Vishnu role, with Smith as Shiva.
> > > >
> > > > Of course, Neo has the potential to be all three at various
> > > > points in the story.
> > >
> > > Your (JPMIII) opinion seems to indicate that Brahma and Vishnu
> > > are on one side and Shiva on the other.
> >
> > No, everyone is on the same side. Everyone wants to survive.
> > Besides, it's quite obvious that the Architect and Oracle --
> > despite being ostensibly on the same side -- oppose each other, at
> > least by methodology. It is a given that each sentient unit of a
> > system has the capacity to make its own decisions, and therefore to
> > disagree with others on occasion. But ultimately everyone is always
> > on the same side, aiming for survival. (Unless psychosis or
> > something sets in...)
> >
> >
> > > That is not true. All these three
> > > Gods are together and are not fighting against one another. Shiva
> > > is the destroyer, yes - he takes care of things that are to be
> > > destroyed. My thinking is a bit different - I believe both the
> > > Archie AND Oracle make Brahma. They are just handling different
> > > aspects of creation. That also explains the role of Sati (I don't
> > > believe Sati symbolises self immolation or sacrifice)... And Neo
> > > is incarnation of Vishnu. So that leaves the original question
> > > un-answered .... who is Shiva ?
> >
> > Well it depends on what we're treating as having been created and
> > needing the protection.
> >
> > If the humans are the subjects, then:
> > Brahma = God?
> > Vishnu = Neo
> > Shiva = Architect
> >
> > If the Matrix is the subject, then:
> > Brahma = Architect
> > Vishnu = Oracle
> > Shiva = Neo? Smith? Agents? Deus ex Machina?
>
> I disagree that Shiva is Smith. I still haven't thought who would
> Shiva be ...
> My perception -
> Brahma - Architect, Oracle, Sati
> Vishnu - Neo
> Shiva - ...
>
> I see more similarity between Smith and Vishnu(Neo) with another story
> in Hindu Mythology. Also, Vishnu is the ultimate God. If you find out
> how Brahma was born ...
>
> _SK

Shiva could very easily be the Oracle and/or Architect, since both attempt
to engineer the destruction of the current incarnation of the Matrix in
favor of another. Neo would then have to represent Vishnu.

And Brahma is some combination of the machines who first built the Matrix,
and man who built the machines.
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JPM III
External


Since: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 1722



PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2004 6:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Hindu Triad: Creator, Protector, Destroyer [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

threeseas wrote in

>
> JPM III wrote:
> > *poke*
> >
> > *prod*
> >
> > Three principal Hindu deities are Brahma (creator), Vishnu
> > (protector), and Shiva (destroyer). Without any further
> > implications, I was comparing their roles in Hinduism to various
> > roles in the Matrix, and it left me unsure about one thing: who is
> > the destroyer in the Matrix? It seems quite reasonable that the
> > Architect would compare best to
> > Brahma, and the Oracle would compare best to Vishnu. But who would
> > compare to Shiva? Smith? The Merovingian? Neo? Deus Ex Machina? I
> > could make arguments for why each of these could play the role of
> > destroyer in this three-pronged analogy, depending on how the
> > organizational structure of the machines' collective intelligence.
> >
> >
>
> The Matrix was modeled, inspired, etc... from real life events or
> happenings, just like the creation of religions and belief systems
> (astrology, I ching, etc..)b along with injecting distrotions and
> distraction so as to deal with intellectual property issues...

I Ching isn't a system, it's a book -- the "Book of Changes". It's one of
the main works of Confucianism.

And... we've covered the rest of this email countless times. We know all the
reasons why we should and shouldn't suggest different parallels between the
Matrix and other stuff. But this is a discussion group... so I suggested a
discussion.
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threeseas
External


Since: Oct 31, 2004
Posts: 2



PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 6:11 am    Post subject: Re: Hindu Triad: Creator, Protector, Destroyer [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

JPM III wrote:
> threeseas wrote in
>
>
>>JPM III wrote:
>>
>>>*poke*
>>>
>>>*prod*
>>>
>>>Three principal Hindu deities are Brahma (creator), Vishnu
>>>(protector), and Shiva (destroyer). Without any further
>>>implications, I was comparing their roles in Hinduism to various
>>>roles in the Matrix, and it left me unsure about one thing: who is
>>>the destroyer in the Matrix? It seems quite reasonable that the
>>>Architect would compare best to
>>>Brahma, and the Oracle would compare best to Vishnu. But who would
>>>compare to Shiva? Smith? The Merovingian? Neo? Deus Ex Machina? I
>>>could make arguments for why each of these could play the role of
>>>destroyer in this three-pronged analogy, depending on how the
>>>organizational structure of the machines' collective intelligence.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>The Matrix was modeled, inspired, etc... from real life events or
>>happenings, just like the creation of religions and belief systems
>>(astrology, I ching, etc..)b along with injecting distrotions and
>>distraction so as to deal with intellectual property issues...
>
>
> I Ching isn't a system, it's a book -- the "Book of Changes". It's one of
> the main works of Confucianism.
>
> And... we've covered the rest of this email countless times. We know all the
> reasons why we should and shouldn't suggest different parallels between the
> Matrix and other stuff. But this is a discussion group... so I suggested a
> discussion.
>
>

Alright, then if all belief systems and books... are just different
perspectives of the same whole....

In the proper light it is not bad to try and fit or overlay some belief
or whatnot onto, in this case, the matrix trilogy. Its more like an
exersize to gain clairity of the whole, via seeing the whole from
different points of view. As such it is also useful to recognize where a
given belief or whatnot doesn't fit, as that too is exposing of the whole.

From my point of view I see both the architect and the oracle as not
productive elements, but rather illusion mocking the real father physics
and mother nature...where the creators would be the machines and the
humans before them, who created the machines in the first place.

But then teh distoryers are also the humans who blackened the sky and
teh machines who enslaved the humans...

Protector?...wouldn't that be the game result? I mean if Thomas Andersen
never played teh game, then he'd still probably be alive feeding the
machines ... but zion....gone...???

so in this big picture of the trilogy it seems the protector is the
balance or need of each (machine -- human) of the other...what might be
a fact and the natural protector.

the danger is in the influence of the movie(s) as to daily thinking in
regards to relative things. there are other ways of thinking about some
things then the message given of ultimate compromise and defeat of any
real freedom.... exchanged only for a promise of such.

as a matter of keeping in check with reality, the whole picture ... it
doesn't hurt to be honest about nothing yet really fitting of being an
accurate description of reality (philosophy) but only theories..
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