Field Recorder/Canon 5D

Aimee T · External Since: Nov 06, 2009 Posts: 1

I am recording audio for a documentary in the next few weeks. We are
using the Canon 5D and my crew wants to use a field recorder instead
of going straight into the camera. (Which is definitely understand,
haha). They suggested the Zoom H4N audio recorder.

Any opinions on this recorder? Or a different suggestion?

THANKS!

Oleg Kaizerman · External Since: Mar 05, 2005 Posts: 2051

as long as they know how to use it , it is more then expectable

"Aimee T" <aimeethomas.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:16c1dbac-0792-40c2-b886-687e3e39ac9b@p23g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
>I am recording audio for a documentary in the next few weeks. We are
> using the Canon 5D and my crew wants to use a field recorder instead
> of going straight into the camera. (Which is definitely understand,
> haha). They suggested the Zoom H4N audio recorder.
>
> Any opinions on this recorder? Or a different suggestion?
>
> THANKS!

Philip Perkins · External Since: Apr 18, 2007 Posts: 42

On Nov 6, 1:07 pm, Aimee T <aimeetho... RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
> I am recording audio for a documentary in the next few weeks. We are
> using the Canon 5D and my crew wants to use a field recorder instead
> of going straight into the camera. (Which is definitely understand,
> haha). They suggested the Zoom H4N audio recorder.
>
> Any opinions on this recorder? Or a different suggestion?
>
> THANKS!

Just work out a good slating method and keep good notes so your
editors can easily match up audio files to picture files. Sending
some kind of scratch audio feed to the camera (instead of just using
the camera's mic) will make the sync easier. If you are cutting on
FCP check out "PluralEyes" and see if it works for you.

Philip Perkins

John · External Since: Nov 07, 2009 Posts: 1

On Nov 7, 8:07 am, Aimee T <aimeetho....DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I am recording audio for a documentary in the next few weeks. We are
> using the Canon 5D and my crew wants to use a field recorder instead
> of going straight into the camera. (Which is definitely understand,
> haha). They suggested the Zoom H4N audio recorder.
>
> Any opinions on this recorder? Or a different suggestion?
>
> THANKS!

Hi Aimee

The camera is apparently a good stills and video camera, and the Canon
7D promises to be better optically, however forget about recording
primary audio tracks to it. You really have to treat this camera as
you would film, therefore double system. The Zoom H4N might be OK for
redundancy backup but not for primary audio. My suggestion would be
to go and hire a Sound Devices 702T (or above) with an Ambient
timecode slate. Then you can guarantee the job you're doing.
I'm afraid I don't agree with Philip or Oleg. Do it properly, stand
your ground, and you will advance in your career.

John Rowley

fudged · External Since: Sep 29, 2009 Posts: 5

On Nov 7, 10:09 am, John <i....DeleteThis@soundequip.com.au> wrote:
> On Nov 7, 8:07 am, Aimee T <aimeetho....DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I am recording audio for a documentary in the next few weeks. We are
> > using the Canon 5D and my crew wants to use a field recorder instead
> > of going straight into the camera. (Which is definitely understand,
> > haha). They suggested the Zoom H4N audio recorder.
>
> > Any opinions on this recorder? Or a different suggestion?
>
> > THANKS!
>
> Hi Aimee
>
> The camera is apparently a good stills and video camera, and the Canon
> 7D promises to be better optically, however forget about recording
> primary audio tracks to it. You really have to treat this camera as
> you would film, therefore double system. The Zoom H4N might be OK for
> redundancy backup but not for primary audio. My suggestion would be
> to go and hire a Sound Devices 702T (or above) with an Ambient
> timecode slate. Then you can guarantee the job you're doing.
> I'm afraid I don't agree with Philip or Oleg. Do it properly, stand
> your ground, and you will advance in your career.
>
> John Rowley

I agree 100% with John. 702T is the way to go. If you do decide to go
with the Zoom H4N, make sure to have it hooked up to a solid mixer
like a mix-pre or 302. The pre-amps in the zoom are pretty awful on
it's own. Pluraleyes does work, just make sure you have a clapper.
I've done some tests with the 5D Mark II as well as the 7D and it
synced up perfectly with a low end recorder like the Zoom H4N.

What John suggests above is the safest way to go.

-Dave

Jason Hemmerlin · External Since: Nov 14, 2009 Posts: 1

On Nov 6, 4:07 pm, Aimee T <aimeetho....RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I am recording audio for a documentary in the next few weeks. We are
> using the Canon 5D and my crew wants to use a field recorder instead
> of going straight into the camera. (Which is definitely understand,
> haha). They suggested the Zoom H4N audio recorder.
>
> Any opinions on this recorder? Or a different suggestion?
>
> THANKS!

I've only used the Zoom recorders for backup and transcription
purposes. They have had some issues with the track bleeding in to one
another. So I would go with the better option of a SD 702T or a
Fostex FR-2. And definitley use a good mixer on the front end.

Derek · External Since: Jan 18, 2009 Posts: 5

I often use a Zoom H2 as a backup recorder and had to solve the
following issue before I was happy with the result:

Fed using a tape level out from my mixer (alphamix) into line input of
H2 the level is too hot for the H2 though this is not obvious at
first. It seems ok, because tone will sound fine, albeit a little
hot, but not clipping, so you reduce gain at recorder until tone lines
up where it should, everything cool right? Wrong. The peaks will
still overload the H2

I figure this is because the "gain" control of the H2 is simply a
software based volume control, and nothing is done to reduce analog
signal at a hardware level.

Go mic-in you say? Sure that works but then your program goes through
the fairly awful H2 pres and lots of hiss is added.

Solution: Radioshack brand in-line headphone volume control. This
has 1/8" female on one end and male on the other with a small pot in
the middle. Put this in-line between tape out and H2 and rolled down
the level some, gaff-taped the control when I found the sweet spot.
Worked great, now the H2 is a pretty decent quality Backup Recorder.

Just an example of how consumer level gear can be used in a
professional setting but usually requires a fair amount of end-user
fanagaling, it's up to you to decide what's right for a particular
production.

Douglas Tourtelot · External Since: Jan 26, 2009 Posts: 31

You are saying of course that the Canon 5D is consumer level gear, correct?
I had to feed three last week. I was embarrassed how awful they sounded.
Would have been better off feeding sound to three oatmeal boxes. The sound
was not usable in any way for a finished product. I am told, and have seen
but not plugged into a pretty sophisticated third-party firmware that
defeats the AGC, adds level control and has metering but my guess is that
not too many 5D owners care enough to pay for and install it.

Good thing I brought a recorder. Next time I get to a job without a real
camera, I am going to charge the client an extra $50 a day for the 788T or
he can go to air with the sound off the 5D. Ugg! What a way to make a
movie!!

D.

On 11/14/09 3:25 PM, in article
b105b2c5-d711-4fa7-94f5-9ad2da487e40 RemoveThis @m38g2000yqd.googlegroups.com, "Derek"
<derek.dhanson RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:

> I often use a Zoom H2 as a backup recorder and had to solve the
> following issue before I was happy with the result:
>
> Fed using a tape level out from my mixer (alphamix) into line input of
> H2 the level is too hot for the H2 though this is not obvious at
> first. It seems ok, because tone will sound fine, albeit a little
> hot, but not clipping, so you reduce gain at recorder until tone lines
> up where it should, everything cool right? Wrong. The peaks will
> still overload the H2
>
> I figure this is because the "gain" control of the H2 is simply a
> software based volume control, and nothing is done to reduce analog
> signal at a hardware level.
>
> Go mic-in you say? Sure that works but then your program goes through
> the fairly awful H2 pres and lots of hiss is added.
>
> Solution: Radioshack brand in-line headphone volume control. This
> has 1/8" female on one end and male on the other with a small pot in
> the middle. Put this in-line between tape out and H2 and rolled down
> the level some, gaff-taped the control when I found the sweet spot.
> Worked great, now the H2 is a pretty decent quality Backup Recorder.
>
> Just an example of how consumer level gear can be used in a
> professional setting but usually requires a fair amount of end-user
> fanagaling, it's up to you to decide what's right for a particular
> production.

Sam · External Since: Aug 18, 2009 Posts: 5

On Nov 14, 8:35 pm, Douglas Tourtelot <dtourte... DeleteThis @comcast.net> wrote:
> You are saying of course that the Canon 5D is consumer level gear, correct?
> I had to feed three last week. I was embarrassed how awful they sounded.
> Would have been better off feeding sound to three oatmeal boxes. The sound
> was not usable in any way for a finished product. I am told, and have seen
> but not plugged into a pretty sophisticated third-party firmware that
> defeats the AGC, adds level control and has metering but my guess is that
> not too many 5D owners care enough to pay for and install it.
>
> Good thing I brought a recorder. Next time I get to a job without a real
> camera, I am going to charge the client an extra $50 a day for the 788T or
> he can go to air with the sound off the 5D. Ugg! What a way to make a
> movie!!
>
> D.
>
> On 11/14/09 3:25 PM, in article
> b105b2c5-d711-4fa7-94f5-9ad2da487... DeleteThis @m38g2000yqd.googlegroups.com, "Derek"
>
>
>
> <derek.dhan... DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> > I often use a Zoom H2 as a backup recorder and had to solve the
> > following issue before I was happy with the result:
>
> > Fed using a tape level out from my mixer (alphamix) into line input of
> > H2 the level is too hot for the H2 though this is not obvious at
> > first. It seems ok, because tone will sound fine, albeit a little
> > hot, but not clipping, so you reduce gain at recorder until tone lines
> > up where it should, everything cool right? Wrong. The peaks will
> > still overload the H2
>
> > I figure this is because the "gain" control of the H2 is simply a
> > software based volume control, and nothing is done to reduce analog
> > signal at a hardware level.
>
> > Go mic-in you say? Sure that works but then your program goes through
> > the fairly awful H2 pres and lots of hiss is added.
>
> > Solution: Radioshack brand in-line headphone volume control. This
> > has 1/8" female on one end and male on the other with a small pot in
> > the middle. Put this in-line between tape out and H2 and rolled down
> > the level some, gaff-taped the control when I found the sweet spot.
> > Worked great, now the H2 is a pretty decent quality Backup Recorder.
>
> > Just an example of how consumer level gear can be used in a
> > professional setting but usually requires a fair amount of end-user
> > fanagaling, it's up to you to decide what's right for a particular
> > production.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

"...not too many 5D owners care enough to pay for and install it."

Magic Lantern is free. You just download it to a Compact Flash card,
power up the 5D and it loads the firmware into the camera. To
uninstall, I believe you just remove the card and the battery, and
reboot the camera, and the factory Canon firmware is back. A CF card
with Magic Lantern on it might be a handy thing to have in your bag.

Douglas Tourtelot · External Since: Jan 26, 2009 Posts: 31

I was not aware. Thanks, but I hope to never see a 5D that isn't strapped
around a guy in the photo pit at Safeco Field<g>.

D.

On 11/16/09 7:42 AM, in article
e9bee5c4-770b-45fe-8561-28e522256c32 RemoveThis @m26g2000yqb.googlegroups.com, "Sam"
<sam.mallery RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:

> On Nov 14, 8:35 pm, Douglas Tourtelot <dtourte... RemoveThis @comcast.net> wrote:
>> You are saying of course that the Canon 5D is consumer level gear, correct?
>> I had to feed three last week. I was embarrassed how awful they sounded.
>> Would have been better off feeding sound to three oatmeal boxes. The sound
>> was not usable in any way for a finished product. I am told, and have seen
>> but not plugged into a pretty sophisticated third-party firmware that
>> defeats the AGC, adds level control and has metering but my guess is that
>> not too many 5D owners care enough to pay for and install it.
>>
>> Good thing I brought a recorder. Next time I get to a job without a real
>> camera, I am going to charge the client an extra $50 a day for the 788T or
>> he can go to air with the sound off the 5D. Ugg! What a way to make a
>> movie!!
>>
>> D.
>>
>> On 11/14/09 3:25 PM, in article
>> b105b2c5-d711-4fa7-94f5-9ad2da487... RemoveThis @m38g2000yqd.googlegroups.com, "Derek"
>>
>>
>>
>> <derek.dhan... RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I often use a Zoom H2 as a backup recorder and had to solve the
>>> following issue before I was happy with the result:
>>
>>> Fed using a tape level out from my mixer (alphamix) into line input of
>>> H2 the level is too hot for the H2 though this is not obvious at
>>> first. It seems ok, because tone will sound fine, albeit a little
>>> hot, but not clipping, so you reduce gain at recorder until tone lines
>>> up where it should, everything cool right? Wrong. The peaks will
>>> still overload the H2
>>
>>> I figure this is because the "gain" control of the H2 is simply a
>>> software based volume control, and nothing is done to reduce analog
>>> signal at a hardware level.
>>
>>> Go mic-in you say? Sure that works but then your program goes through
>>> the fairly awful H2 pres and lots of hiss is added.
>>
>>> Solution: Radioshack brand in-line headphone volume control. This
>>> has 1/8" female on one end and male on the other with a small pot in
>>> the middle. Put this in-line between tape out and H2 and rolled down
>>> the level some, gaff-taped the control when I found the sweet spot.
>>> Worked great, now the H2 is a pretty decent quality Backup Recorder.
>>
>>> Just an example of how consumer level gear can be used in a
>>> professional setting but usually requires a fair amount of end-user
>>> fanagaling, it's up to you to decide what's right for a particular
>>> production.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> "...not too many 5D owners care enough to pay for and install it."
>
> Magic Lantern is free. You just download it to a Compact Flash card,
> power up the 5D and it loads the firmware into the camera. To
> uninstall, I believe you just remove the card and the battery, and
> reboot the camera, and the factory Canon firmware is back. A CF card
> with Magic Lantern on it might be a handy thing to have in your bag.