keyboards

Harry Putnam · External Since: Aug 09, 2004 Posts: 301

I need a little coaching on what keyboard to buy on line. The kind of
junky stuff at Best Buy (Dynex, last time I bought one there) begin to
loose clarity on certain letters withing 2 weeks... and the keyboard
on my gateway laptop is even worse.

I have old keyboards with the old style hookups that lasted literally
for yrs and are still completely clear...although maybe worn shiny the
letters and numbers are basically still pristine.

The older boards appear to have the letters etched into the surface,
or recessed into the plastic somehow. Where as the new junky dynex
appears to have something like decals.. or that is, the letter/numbers
appear to be a some kind of applique, and they wear off way to quick.

Looking around on line, its hard to tell if the numbers/letters are
any different than what I have.

I looked at some Keytronic boards that I recall to have been excellent
an long lived... yrs ago... The prices are around $40 which seems a
bit high. Is it?

Can someone vouch for a currently available (usb) keyboard that has
long lived letters and keys.. even better... letter/keys that are
recessed into the plastic slightly.

Oh, and what should a keyboard with lasting letters/numbers cost?

Thad Floryan · External Since: Jun 11, 2009 Posts: 7

On 10/10/2009 2:53 PM, Harry Putnam wrote:
> I need a little coaching on what keyboard to buy on line. The kind of
> junky stuff at Best Buy (Dynex, last time I bought one there) begin to
> loose clarity on certain letters withing 2 weeks... and the keyboard
> on my gateway laptop is even worse.
>
> I have old keyboards with the old style hookups that lasted literally
> for yrs and are still completely clear...although maybe worn shiny the
> letters and numbers are basically still pristine.
> [...]
> Can someone vouch for a currently available (usb) keyboard that has
> long lived letters and keys.. even better... letter/keys that are
> recessed into the plastic slightly.
>
> Oh, and what should a keyboard with lasting letters/numbers cost?

There are only two choices available on the market today:

<http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/customizer.html>
and
<http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/en104bl.html> [SpaceSaver]

I opted for the SpaceSaver -- best keyboard I've had the pleasure to
use in over 25 years (and I've been using keyboards since the 1950s).

You can see my SpaceSaver here (connected to a 16-port KVM):

<http://thadlabs.com/PIX/Thad_desk.jpg>

Besides the excellent keyboard feel (I chose Quiet Touch vs. the
IBM buckling spring design), the keytop letters do NOT wear off.
These KBs are available either with PS2 Mini-DIN or USB connection.

Though these may seem pricey (US$69), you are buying quality and
you only need to buy one (instead of having to buy a new junk KB
every 3-4 months) so the savings is phenomenal over several decades.

notbob · External Since: Jun 08, 2004 Posts: 792

On 2009-10-10, Thad Floryan <thad.DeleteThis@thadlabs.com> wrote:

><http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/en104bl.html> [SpaceSaver]
>
> I opted for the SpaceSaver -- best keyboard I've had the pleasure to
> use in over 25 years (and I've been using keyboards since the 1950s).

How are they to clean up? IOW, removing keyboard "plaque". Are the
key bottons removable for a thorough cleaning?

> Though these may seem pricey (US$69), you are buying quality and
> you only need to buy one (instead of having to buy a new junk KB
> every 3-4 months) so the savings is phenomenal over several decades.

I'm quite impressed with their line of keyboards. They even have
boards with an IBM pointing stick, a great feature for those of us who
hate a mouse and those useless touchpads. Too bad they offer nothing
in the way of ergonomic layouts. Thanks for this reference. Wink

nb

Chris Cox · External Since: Aug 06, 2009 Posts: 5

On Sat, 2009-10-10 at 16:53 -0500, Harry Putnam wrote:
> I need a little coaching on what keyboard to buy on line. The kind of
> junky stuff at Best Buy (Dynex, last time I bought one there) begin to
> loose clarity on certain letters withing 2 weeks... and the keyboard
> on my gateway laptop is even worse.
>
> I have old keyboards with the old style hookups that lasted literally
> for yrs and are still completely clear...although maybe worn shiny the
> letters and numbers are basically still pristine.
>
> The older boards appear to have the letters etched into the surface,
> or recessed into the plastic somehow. Where as the new junky dynex
> appears to have something like decals.. or that is, the letter/numbers
> appear to be a some kind of applique, and they wear off way to quick.

The good ones had plastic inside of plastic. Thus no wear off possible.

>
> Looking around on line, its hard to tell if the numbers/letters are
> any different than what I have.
>
> I looked at some Keytronic boards that I recall to have been excellent
> an long lived... yrs ago... The prices are around $40 which seems a
> bit high. Is it?
>
> Can someone vouch for a currently available (usb) keyboard that has
> long lived letters and keys.. even better... letter/keys that are
> recessed into the plastic slightly.
>
> Oh, and what should a keyboard with lasting letters/numbers cost?

Good question. Perhaps keyboards have become disposables now? Maybe
the idea is to purchase a $15 keyboard very year or so?

Looking forward to the replies on this one.

notbob · External Since: Jun 08, 2004 Posts: 792

On 2009-10-12, Chris Cox <chrisncoxn RemoveThis @endlessnow.com> wrote:

> Good question. Perhaps keyboards have become disposables now? Maybe
> the idea is to purchase a $15 keyboard very year or so?
>
> Looking forward to the replies on this one.

There is no "perhaps" to it. It's an indisputable fact. Most
keyboards are designed to be tossed.

I've taken apart logitech keyboards due to loss of key contact. The
only way they will not eventually wear out and become non-functional
is if you don't ever press the keys. The contact points between the
keys and the electronics is a piece of mylar with electrically
conductive carbon based paint-on traces leading to the IC board. When
the paint wears off ...and by design, there's no avoiding it... that's
it. Dead keys. Dead keyboard. I had 3 of them. They all died the
same inevitable death.

nb

Thad Floryan · External Since: Jun 11, 2009 Posts: 7

On 10/12/2009 8:25 AM, notbob wrote:
> On 2009-10-12, Chris Cox <chrisncoxn.DeleteThis@endlessnow.com> wrote:
>
>> Good question. Perhaps keyboards have become disposables now? Maybe
>> the idea is to purchase a $15 keyboard very year or so?
>>
>> Looking forward to the replies on this one.
>
> There is no "perhaps" to it. It's an indisputable fact. Most
> keyboards are designed to be tossed.
>
> I've taken apart logitech keyboards due to loss of key contact. The
> only way they will not eventually wear out and become non-functional
> is if you don't ever press the keys. The contact points between the
> keys and the electronics is a piece of mylar with electrically
> conductive carbon based paint-on traces leading to the IC board. When
> the paint wears off ...and by design, there's no avoiding it... that's
> it. Dead keys. Dead keyboard. I had 3 of them. They all died the
> same inevitable death.

Right. As I wrote earlier, I'd go through 6-8 Dell QuietKey KBs
a year -- simply wear them out. Junk contacts, Junk switches, Junk.

And the suggestion (above) to purchase a $15 keyboard every year or so
is really false economy; said keyboard probably has other problems
such as the inability to keep up with a fast typist (one of my biggest
gripes about the Dell keyboards). The Unicomp keyboard I mentioned
earlier in this thread does NOT have that problem -- it's probably one
of the finest keyboards available today -- at least I haven't found any
better ones (yet) though I'm always keeping an eye open.

Now this is just me, but I really cannot get excited about the so-called
ergonomic keyboards. I've been typing since the early 1950s (IBM electric
typewriter) and even today I use a keyboard 12-16 hours day and have no
problems doing so probably because my chair and arms are all at the
correct positions with respect to the keyboard. And don't even mention a
Dvorak keyboard; one of my best friends uses one (KVM'd to his Linux and
MacOS X boxes) and it drives me crazy when I sit down and try to use it
(and he's 82 years old Smile

Reflecting back over the decades, the best keyboards I've used all had
relatively large keyswitches. The biggest I recall were used in the
Datapoint 3300 terminal; the switches were mercury-based and about 2"
long. The best keyboard I ever used was on the Datamedia DT80 (a VT100
clone); that lasted me over 20 years ('til the CRT died) and I could
never out-type its KB; the KB was thick, though, about 2". The keyboards
on my AT&T UNIXpc (aka 3B1 aka PC7300) also were pretty good and they
(the 3B1s) still work fine after 25 years now (all three of them).

And right now I'm really happy and pleased with the Unicomp SpaceSaver.

Wanna-Be Sys Admin · External Since: Sep 26, 2009 Posts: 11

Thad Floryan wrote:

> The Unicomp keyboard I mentioned
> earlier in this thread does NOT have that problem -- it's probably one
> of the finest keyboards available today -- at least I haven't found
> any better ones (yet) though I'm always keeping an eye open.
>

That is what I use, and they have real springs in the one's I get. I
would go through a keyboard every month or two, and I've used the same
UniComp keyboards for years now without a single failure (and the
action always remains the same, no stuck keys, no weirdness, etc.)
Personally, I've never had any desire to keep my eyes open for any
other alternatives once I started using the Unicomp keyboards (with the
buckling springs). I've used the same one for 7 years now and I bet it
lasts another 5 or 10 years (plus I have a backup when that day comes).
It was around $40 or maybe a little more, I don't recall. You can't
beat that if you're a serious user that does a ton of typing.
--
Not really a wanna-be, but I don't know everything.

Jim Haynes · External Since: Oct 12, 2009 Posts: 1

On 2009-10-12, Thad Floryan <thad.DeleteThis@thadlabs.com> wrote:
> And don't even mention a
> Dvorak keyboard; one of my best friends uses one (KVM'd to his Linux and
> MacOS X boxes) and it drives me crazy when I sit down and try to use it
> (and he's 82 years old Smile

Ah, yes, I have a friend about that age who will talk your arm off about
the advantages of Dvorak. He has a keyboard he found on ebay with a switch
on it that converts between Dvorak and QWERTY.

I read somewhere just recently that the tests showing the superiority of
Dvorak were actually rigged and it isn't all that good. I've never got
that excited about it just because the fraction of time a typist spends
actually typing during the typical work day is probably so small that a
more efficient keyboard doesn't make any difference.

I picked up some Cherry brand USB keyboards from All Electronics Corp. for
about five bucks each.

notbob · External Since: Jun 08, 2004 Posts: 792

On 2009-10-12, Jim Haynes <jhaynes.RemoveThis@alumni.uark.edu> wrote:

> Ah, yes, I have a friend about that age who will talk your arm off about
> the advantages of Dvorak. He has a keyboard he found on ebay with a switch
> on it that converts between Dvorak and QWERTY.
>
> I read somewhere just recently that the tests showing the superiority of
> Dvorak were actually rigged and it isn't all that good. k

Probably this site:

http://reason.com/archives/1996/06/01/typing-errors

.....which drones on ad nauseam about the dvorak keyboard being a scam.

I could care less. I may know how to touch-type, but never got much
past about 30 wpm, and never neeeded/wanted to, so certainly have no
desire to change key layouts. Besides, the last I heard, some guy on
an typewriter (don't recall if it was mech or elect) was doing 240 wpm
on a the old non-dvorak layout. Apparently, there's no speed problem
with qwerty.

nb

Aragorn · External Since: Feb 22, 2009 Posts: 13

On Monday 12 October 2009 17:25 in comp.os.linux.hardware, somebody
identifying as notbob wrote...

> On 2009-10-12, Chris Cox <chrisncoxn.TakeThisOut@endlessnow.com> wrote:
>
>> Good question. Perhaps keyboards have become disposables now? Maybe
>> the idea is to purchase a $15 keyboard very year or so?
>>
>> Looking forward to the replies on this one.
>
> There is no "perhaps" to it. It's an indisputable fact. Most
> keyboards are designed to be tossed.

As are computers themselves, and computer screens, and possibly even
computer mice.

There is a similar trend even among printers, or at least, this was the
case a few years ago. You could buy a very good laserprinter at almost
no cost, but when you ran out of toner and you had to replace the drum,
a new drum would cost more than a new printer, so you'd simply toss the
printer and buy a new one.

Likewise for color inkjet printers if you needed to buy new heads - some
brands even had the head embedded in the ink cartridge, so that the
cartridges ended up being very expensive, making the purchase of a new
printer instead of a new set of cartridges/heads an interesting thing
to ponder.

> I've taken apart logitech keyboards due to loss of key contact. The
> only way they will not eventually wear out and become non-functional
> is if you don't ever press the keys. The contact points between the
> keys and the electronics is a piece of mylar with electrically
> conductive carbon based paint-on traces leading to the IC board. When
> the paint wears off ...and by design, there's no avoiding it... that's
> it. Dead keys. Dead keyboard. I had 3 of them. They all died the
> same inevitable death.

I cannot argue with the quality of the old IBM "M"-style keyboards as
mentioned by other posters already, nor with that of the Unicomp
keyboards which still use the same design as those old IBM keyboards.

However, I myself don't have a credit card and I don't like purchasing
things off the internet, so I had to look for another brand of
keyboards. You may remember that I have asked for similar
recommendations here on this newsgroup a few months ago. I have looked
into the "ergo" keyboards made by Logitech and MICROS~1 but neither of
them seemed sturdy enough.

With each of the computers that I myself have owned, I have always used
Cherry keyboards, often without ordering one specifically, as they were
always supplied as stock equipment with the computer itself. Some were
the smaller "Business Line" models, which were not very heavy and
tended to move when you slightly hit them by accident with your hand,
and I didn't like those. The good ones however were the
bigger "Professional Line" models, with a wider "rim" above the
function keys. They are heavy enough to sit firmly on your desk/table.

The sad news is that these models - i.e. G80-3000 and G81-3000 - are no
longer in Cherry's catalog - they do have a few other heavy models, but
those are non-standard, with either 24 programmable extra function keys
or with a built-in cardreader and such - but the good news is that
these older models are still in stock at a number of Cherry's local
branches, eventhough they may not be listed on the (local) website
anymore. I have just ordered one myself (with a USB connector) and
it's already come in at my hardware supplier.

They're not IBMs with their clicky feel, but they are among the most
robust and rigid keyboards still circulating today. If you can get
your hands on one of those G81-3000s, then go for it and cherish it.
I've never had one fail me or have the characters fade in all of the
years that I've been using them.

You could get them in the typical "computer beige" (officially
dubbed "white" in the catalog), light grey or black, and with either a
USB, PS/2 or DIN connector - the latter with or without the "Winkeys",
depending on the vintage.

A number of years ago, Cherry also had a "Linux keyboard" out, which did
not have different positions for the /Ctrl/ and /Escape/ keys but
instead simply had a penguin logo on the "Winkeys", and it also had a
few extra keys, possibly for shortcuts to X11-specific applications.

These "Tux" keyboards came with a SuSE 9.x distribution on a set of
CDs - which goes to show how long ago this was - preconfigured to make
use of the extra keys. The keyboard itself however was one of their
CyMotion models, which is again one of those flummy things that's not
built to last and that slides out of position whenver you sneeze a
little harder than usual.

Anyway, just my two cents. Smile

--
*Aragorn*
(registered GNU/Linux user #223157)

Aragorn · External Since: Feb 22, 2009 Posts: 13

On Monday 12 October 2009 22:20 in comp.os.linux.hardware, somebody
identifying as notbob wrote...

> [...] Besides, the last I heard, some guy on an typewriter (don't
> recall if it was mech or elect) was doing 240 wpm on a the old
> non-dvorak layout. Apparently, there's no speed problem
> with qwerty.

I take it you would be talking of Billy Meier, a Swiss farmer now in his
seventies, who is best known - whether legitimately or falsely - as the
main contactee of a species of human-looking extraterrestrials from the
Pleiadean system - he himself refers to them as "Plejarans".

A number of years ago, Billy Meier lost his left arm (from the shoulder
down) in a car accident, and there is a video on YouTube of him typing
a regular computer keyboard with a Swiss QWERTY layout - not a
typewriter though - at approximately 240 words per minute, using only
his right hand. I've watched it, and it's quite incredible, UFO
contactee or not. Wink

P.S. with regard to keyboard layouts: I myself reside in Belgium, and
although this is officially a trilingual country, the Belgian keyboard
layout is AZERTY, which is a layout that comes from the French-speaking
world - apart from Belgium, it is solely used in France and a number of
the (former) French colonies. The Belgian layout differs from the
French layout only in a few characters.

What's quite different between AZERTY and QWERTY (and QWERTZ) however is
that on QWERTY, the "M" is positioned to the right of the "N", whereas
on AZERTY, it's positioned to the right of the "L", and the second main
difference is that the number keys on the alphanumeric section of the
keyboard require being used in combination with the /Shift/ key, which
in my case prompts me to simply reach for the numeric keypad whenever I
have to type numbers. Without the /Shift/ key, the number keys on the
alphanumeric section of the keyboard are for a few accented characters,
single and double quotes, exclamation mark, parentheses and accolades,
and a few extra characters - more of those even in combination with
the /AltGr/ key.

In the Netherlands however, which is Dutch-spoken just like over here in
The Flanders, where I myself reside, they use a QWERTY keyboard, and I
have already heard from quite a few Dutch people living and working in
Belgium that QWERTY is actually a lot faster and easier to use
than "our" AZERTY layout.

I do have a QWERTY keyboard sitting here in a box somewhere but as I'm a
touch-typist accustomed to AZERTY, it is of course hard for me to
evaluate that claim. Yet, I also do have the impression that QWERTY is
indeed far more logically laid out, and Dvorak seems, well, peculiar
and bizarre at best. I can't possibly imagine how a Dvorak layout
would be any more comfortable or any more efficient. But then maybe
that's just me. Wink

--
*Aragorn*
(registered GNU/Linux user #223157)

Harry Putnam · External Since: Aug 09, 2004 Posts: 301

Thad Floryan <thad DeleteThis @thadlabs.com> writes:

> Besides the excellent keyboard feel (I chose Quiet Touch vs. the
> IBM buckling spring design), the keytop letters do NOT wear off.
> These KBs are available either with PS2 Mini-DIN or USB connection.

Looks like exactly what I wanted to be shown. Thanks for the URLS.

> Though these may seem pricey (US$69), you are buying quality and
> you only need to buy one (instead of having to buy a new junk KB
> every 3-4 months) so the savings is phenomenal over several decades.

Yes, it does seem a bit hefty. Especially since I think I remember
buying techtronic boards back around 1996 for something like $20 and
they were pretty durable. I gave up on those two when keyboard went
to ps2. Those were the older connection with a much bigger plug than
the ps2... I kept loosing the adapters and they started getting hard
to find.

Oh thinking of adapters. Where can I get usb to ps2... I have three
laying here in front of me now, all are female usb, male ps2.

I'd like to have a couple that are female ps2 in and male usb out.
Just the opposite of what seems to be the most common.

Sites I've googled up... are very careless about how they describe
adapters and its hard to tell what you might be buying.

Thad Floryan · External Since: Jun 11, 2009 Posts: 7

On 10/17/2009 1:29 PM, Harry Putnam wrote:
> Thad Floryan <thad.RemoveThis@thadlabs.com> writes:
>
>> Besides the excellent keyboard feel (I chose Quiet Touch vs. the
>> IBM buckling spring design), the keytop letters do NOT wear off.
>> These KBs are available either with PS2 Mini-DIN or USB connection.
>
> Looks like exactly what I wanted to be shown. Thanks for the URLS.

You're welcome!

>> Though these may seem pricey (US$69), you are buying quality and
>> you only need to buy one (instead of having to buy a new junk KB
>> every 3-4 months) so the savings is phenomenal over several decades.
>
> Yes, it does seem a bit hefty. Especially since I think I remember
> buying techtronic boards back around 1996 for something like $20 and
> they were pretty durable. I gave up on those two when keyboard went
> to ps2. Those were the older connection with a much bigger plug than
> the ps2... I kept loosing the adapters and they started getting hard
> to find.
>
> Oh thinking of adapters. Where can I get usb to ps2... I have three
> laying here in front of me now, all are female usb, male ps2.

Here are 3 different ones I have in my parts box:

<http://thadlabs.com/PIX/USB-PS2_adapters.jpg>

A fourth type is "around here somewhere" (maybe on my KVM). Smile

> I'd like to have a couple that are female ps2 in and male usb out.
> Just the opposite of what seems to be the most common.
>
> Sites I've googled up... are very careless about how they describe
> adapters and its hard to tell what you might be buying.

USB "A" Type Male to PS2 Female Adapter:

<http://www.frys.com/product/3470803>

USB "A" Type Female to PS2 Male Adapter:
<http://www.frys.com/product/3470833>

also, goto <http://wwww.mwave.com/>
and enter "usb ps2 adapter" to their search box

Newegg doesn't seem to have any.

Harry Putnam · External Since: Aug 09, 2004 Posts: 301

Thad Floryan <thad.DeleteThis@thadlabs.com> writes:

>> Oh thinking of adapters. Where can I get usb to ps2... I have three
>> laying here in front of me now, all are female usb, male ps2.
>
> Here are 3 different ones I have in my parts box:
>
> <http://thadlabs.com/PIX/USB-PS2_adapters.jpg>

The one on the far right is the one I'm after.

[...]

> USB "A" Type Male to PS2 Female Adapter:
>
> <http://www.frys.com/product/3470803>

And once again... you've hit the nail right on the head.

Thanks again.

rickbrandt2 · External Since: Nov 14, 2009 Posts: 1

Thad Floryan wrote:
> There are only two choices available on the market today:
>
> <http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/customizer.html>
> and
> <http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/en104bl.html> [SpaceSaver]
>
> I opted for the SpaceSaver -- best keyboard I've had the pleasure to
> use in over 25 years (and I've been using keyboards since the 1950s).
>
> You can see my SpaceSaver here (connected to a 16-port KVM):
>
> <http://thadlabs.com/PIX/Thad_desk.jpg>
>
> Besides the excellent keyboard feel (I chose Quiet Touch vs. the
> IBM buckling spring design), the keytop letters do NOT wear off.
> These KBs are available either with PS2 Mini-DIN or USB connection.
>
> Though these may seem pricey (US$69), you are buying quality and
> you only need to buy one (instead of having to buy a new junk KB
> every 3-4 months) so the savings is phenomenal over several decades.

I can second this recommendation. I've had the black "customizer" model
for about two years and I'm quite sure that I could spend a couple
minutes with cleaner and a brush and you would not be able to tell mine
from a brand new one. I didn't opt for the quieter key model and wish
I had though (my wife complains about the clicking).