Towards consensus of our usage of the Uploaders field

dann frazier · External Since: Nov 10, 2004 Posts: 787

According to policy 5.6.3:

List of the names and email addresses of co-maintainers of the
package, if any. If the package has other maintainers beside the one
named in the Maintainer field, their names and email addresses should
be listed here.

Given this, I believe anyone on the kernel team should be permitted an
entry in the Uploaders field. I also do not believe that the presence
of a maintainer's name in the Uploaders field grants them any
additional privileges. Uploads still need to be coordinated on the
mailing list, etc.

Does this match other people's interpretations? Let's please use this
thread to achieve consensus on Uploaders usage.

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Norbert Tretkowski · External Since: Jul 15, 2005 Posts: 188

On Thu, 2007-03-15 at 14:32 -0600, dann frazier wrote:
[...]
> Does this match other people's interpretations?

Yes.

Norbert

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Bastian Blank · External Since: Nov 21, 2004 Posts: 686

On Thu, Mar 15, 2007 at 02:32:29PM -0600, dann frazier wrote:
> Does this match other people's interpretations? Let's please use this
> thread to achieve consensus on Uploaders usage.

No.

Bastian

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Sven Luther · External Since: Mar 09, 2007 Posts: 24

On Thu, Mar 15, 2007 at 10:43:49PM +0100, Bastian Blank wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 15, 2007 at 02:32:29PM -0600, dann frazier wrote:
> > Does this match other people's interpretations? Let's please use this
> > thread to achieve consensus on Uploaders usage.
>
> No.

Hi Bastian,

Would you be so kind as to give a bit more information about your
interpretation and the reasons for it ?

I think i can see both your point, and their point. We have a bunch of people
in the kernel team who have not been active for months, and some i don't even
know, so they should not be uploaders.

On the other hand, there should not be any upload without a full consensus of
all the team, but then with the disintegration of the kernel team which has
been happening since the non-free affair, this could be more problematic than
what it seems.

Friendly,

Sven Luther

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dann frazier · External Since: Nov 10, 2004 Posts: 787

On Thu, Mar 15, 2007 at 10:43:49PM +0100, Bastian Blank wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 15, 2007 at 02:32:29PM -0600, dann frazier wrote:
> > Does this match other people's interpretations? Let's please use this
> > thread to achieve consensus on Uploaders usage.
>
> No.

What is your interpretation Bastian?

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maximilian attems · External Since: Sep 17, 2005 Posts: 524

On Thu, Mar 15, 2007 at 10:30:54PM +0100, Norbert Tretkowski wrote:
> On Thu, 2007-03-15 at 14:32 -0600, dann frazier wrote:
> [...]
> > Does this match other people's interpretations?
>
> Yes.
>
> Norbert

ack

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Sven Luther · External Since: Mar 09, 2007 Posts: 24

On Fri, Mar 16, 2007 at 02:19:11AM +0100, Frans Pop wrote:
> On Thursday 15 March 2007 21:32, dann frazier wrote:
> > Given this, I believe anyone on the kernel team should be permitted an
> > entry in the Uploaders field. I also do not believe that the presence
> > of a maintainer's name in the Uploaders field grants them any
> > additional privileges. Uploads still need to be coordinated on the
> > mailing list, etc.
>
> In the D-I team we treat the Uploaders field differently. Uploaders are
> people who actually coordinate the package or do frequent uploads because
> of their role in the project (e.g. the release manager).

Frans, you are not of the kernel team, and as you have played dirty tricks in
these areas yourself, you are absolutely not qualified to give your opinion
here.

Friendly,

Sven Luther

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Jurij Smakov · External Since: Aug 08, 2005 Posts: 153

On Thu, Mar 15, 2007 at 02:32:29PM -0600, dann frazier wrote:
> According to policy 5.6.3:
>
> List of the names and email addresses of co-maintainers of the
> package, if any. If the package has other maintainers beside the one
> named in the Maintainer field, their names and email addresses should
> be listed here.
>
> Given this, I believe anyone on the kernel team should be permitted an
> entry in the Uploaders field. I also do not believe that the presence
> of a maintainer's name in the Uploaders field grants them any
> additional privileges. Uploads still need to be coordinated on the
> mailing list, etc.
>
> Does this match other people's interpretations? Let's please use this
> thread to achieve consensus on Uploaders usage.

I do agree with this interpretation. I also think it's really sad that
we have to invoke policy to regulate the use of the Uploaders field.
There is no reason whatsoever (other than Bastian's anti-social
tendencies) to keep people out of Uploaders if they think/feel that
they should be there.

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Jurij Smakov · External Since: Aug 08, 2005 Posts: 153

On Fri, Mar 16, 2007 at 07:21:54AM +0100, Sven Luther wrote:
>
> Frans, you are not of the kernel team, and as you have played dirty tricks in
> these areas yourself, you are absolutely not qualified to give your opinion
> here.

Don't be ridiculous. It's a public mailing list, and everyone's
opinion is welcome. If you cannot keep your personal feuds out of it,
I suggest that *you* keep your opinions to yourself.

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Sven Luther · External Since: Mar 09, 2007 Posts: 24

On Fri, Mar 16, 2007 at 10:01:08AM +0200, Jurij Smakov wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 16, 2007 at 07:21:54AM +0100, Sven Luther wrote:
> >
> > Frans, you are not of the kernel team, and as you have played dirty tricks in
> > these areas yourself, you are absolutely not qualified to give your opinion
> > here.
>
> Don't be ridiculous. It's a public mailing list, and everyone's
> opinion is welcome. If you cannot keep your personal feuds out of it,
> I suggest that *you* keep your opinions to yourself.

So, Frans has the right to speak here, while i have not ?

Friendly,

Sven Luther

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Sven Luther · External Since: Mar 09, 2007 Posts: 24

On Fri, Mar 16, 2007 at 09:59:36AM +0200, Jurij Smakov wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 15, 2007 at 02:32:29PM -0600, dann frazier wrote:
> > According to policy 5.6.3:
> >
> > List of the names and email addresses of co-maintainers of the
> > package, if any. If the package has other maintainers beside the one
> > named in the Maintainer field, their names and email addresses should
> > be listed here.
> >
> > Given this, I believe anyone on the kernel team should be permitted an
> > entry in the Uploaders field. I also do not believe that the presence
> > of a maintainer's name in the Uploaders field grants them any
> > additional privileges. Uploads still need to be coordinated on the
> > mailing list, etc.
> >
> > Does this match other people's interpretations? Let's please use this
> > thread to achieve consensus on Uploaders usage.
>
> I do agree with this interpretation. I also think it's really sad that
> we have to invoke policy to regulate the use of the Uploaders field.
> There is no reason whatsoever (other than Bastian's anti-social
> tendencies) to keep people out of Uploaders if they think/feel that
> they should be there.

So, will you try to expulse him too, like Frederik and Andres did to me ?

Friendly,

Sven Luther

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Marc Haber · External Since: Jun 27, 2004 Posts: 19

On Fri, Mar 16, 2007 at 09:15:55AM +0100, Sven Luther wrote:
> So, will you try to expulse him too, like Frederik and Andres did to me ?

Can you please take your personal vendettas from this technical
mailing list? Both Bastian and you are difficult to work with, but in
different dimensions.

Greetings
Marc

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Jurij Smakov · External Since: Aug 08, 2005 Posts: 153

On Fri, Mar 16, 2007 at 09:15:55AM +0100, Sven Luther wrote:

> > I do agree with this interpretation. I also think it's really sad that
> > we have to invoke policy to regulate the use of the Uploaders field.
> > There is no reason whatsoever (other than Bastian's anti-social
> > tendencies) to keep people out of Uploaders if they think/feel that
> > they should be there.
>
> So, will you try to expulse him too, like Frederik and Andres did to me ?

No, I will not try to expell him. However, if a person repeatedly
fails to follow simple guidelines, to which the majority of kernel
team agrees (in this case, mailing the list and waiting for replies
for a reasonable amount of time before reverting svn commits made by
other team members), I think some action (for example, temporary
suspension of svn write access) should be taken.
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Sven Luther · External Since: Mar 09, 2007 Posts: 24

On Fri, Mar 16, 2007 at 12:18:13PM +0200, Jurij Smakov wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 16, 2007 at 09:15:55AM +0100, Sven Luther wrote:
>
> > > I do agree with this interpretation. I also think it's really sad that
> > > we have to invoke policy to regulate the use of the Uploaders field.
> > > There is no reason whatsoever (other than Bastian's anti-social
> > > tendencies) to keep people out of Uploaders if they think/feel that
> > > they should be there.
> >
> > So, will you try to expulse him too, like Frederik and Andres did to me ?
>
> No, I will not try to expell him. However, if a person repeatedly
> fails to follow simple guidelines, to which the majority of kernel
> team agrees (in this case, mailing the list and waiting for replies
> for a reasonable amount of time before reverting svn commits made by
> other team members), I think some action (for example, temporary
> suspension of svn write access) should be taken.

My point is that there is no heart to the kernel team anymore, and before we
go in all against one, or whatever, it is important to reconstruct our
identity again, and this includes discussing things.

What i noticed, is that the kernel team today is mostly limited to a few
people right now, mostly Bastian and Maximilian as far as i could see, but i
didn't check in detail.

The irc channel is mostly silent, and we don't have anymore the camaraderie we
used to have before.

I know that my behaviour of last year contributed to this, but i am not the
only responsible.

So, before going into he forcing-people overgear, we should have some irc
meeting or something, and see how we want to work in our team, and what the
future of the participation of each of us is going to be, and if i am still
wanted or not, especially after Frederik's seconding of my expulsion and the
extremely hurting words he had then, and his silence on this topic since then.

Friendly,

Sven Luther

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dann frazier · External Since: Dec 09, 2004 Posts: 193

On Fri, Mar 16, 2007 at 02:19:11AM +0100, Frans Pop wrote:
> On Thursday 15 March 2007 21:32, dann frazier wrote:
> > Given this, I believe anyone on the kernel team should be permitted an
> > entry in the Uploaders field. I also do not believe that the presence
> > of a maintainer's name in the Uploaders field grants them any
> > additional privileges. Uploads still need to be coordinated on the
> > mailing list, etc.
>
> In the D-I team we treat the Uploaders field differently. Uploaders are
> people who actually coordinate the package or do frequent uploads because
> of their role in the project (e.g. the release manager).

Thanks for this description Frans. Is this treatment simply "the way
it has always done it", or are their other justifications/polices
around it?

For example, if you are not currently in Uploaders and you wish to do
an upload, do you just add yourself to Uploaders and upload? Or, must
you achieve a rough consensus among the other uploaders and/or the
release manager? Or, eg., does the d-i team use this because they
believe it provides information to the outside world such as "these
are the people I need to poke about accepting my patch", etch?

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Otavio Salvador · External Since: Dec 01, 2004 Posts: 587

Frans Pop <elendil.RemoveThis@planet.nl> writes:

> On Thursday 15 March 2007 21:32, dann frazier wrote:
>> Given this, I believe anyone on the kernel team should be permitted an
>> entry in the Uploaders field. I also do not believe that the presence
>> of a maintainer's name in the Uploaders field grants them any
>> additional privileges. Uploads still need to be coordinated on the
>> mailing list, etc.
>
> In the D-I team we treat the Uploaders field differently. Uploaders are
> people who actually coordinate the package or do frequent uploads because
> of their role in the project (e.g. the release manager).

I personally like the way the uploaders field has been use on d-i and
think it would fulfill nicely the kernel team way of doing things.

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Sven Luther · External Since: Mar 09, 2007 Posts: 24

On Sat, Mar 17, 2007 at 03:23:39PM -0300, Otavio Salvador wrote:
> Frans Pop <elendil.DeleteThis@planet.nl> writes:
>
> > On Thursday 15 March 2007 21:32, dann frazier wrote:
> >> Given this, I believe anyone on the kernel team should be permitted an
> >> entry in the Uploaders field. I also do not believe that the presence
> >> of a maintainer's name in the Uploaders field grants them any
> >> additional privileges. Uploads still need to be coordinated on the
> >> mailing list, etc.
> >
> > In the D-I team we treat the Uploaders field differently. Uploaders are
> > people who actually coordinate the package or do frequent uploads because
> > of their role in the project (e.g. the release manager).
>
> I personally like the way the uploaders field has been use on d-i and
> think it would fulfill nicely the kernel team way of doing things.

Notice that Frans decided on this way of using the uploader field, and used it
as weapon against me in his war against me. I remember perfectly the older
days of the d-i team, where you could add yourself as uploader, when you where
actually working on a d-i package. But as d-i moved away from the do-ocracy
that many believe is what debian should be, into a strong tyrany of a few,
things changed, and most of those changes where in reaction to needs in their
fight against me.

I am not entirely sure that this is what is most wanted here, this is
defitively not how the kernel team used to work, when it was most succesfull,
where those actually doing the work could add themselves to the Uploader
field, and actually do the upload. Sure, this worked in a coordinated way, but
as we where a friendly group, and worked together, and there wass no real need
of hierarchies and strong order of control, this worked out well enough.

But it is sure, that in the recent days, i see mostly Bastian doing uploads,
and only a few active people, so things have changed indeed, and not for the
best.

Friendly,

Sven Luther

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Bastian Blank · External Since: Nov 21, 2004 Posts: 686

On Thu, Mar 15, 2007 at 04:03:36PM -0600, dann frazier wrote:
> What is your interpretation Bastian?

The same than d-i have. And I lost the trust in maks.

Bastian

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Bastian Blank · External Since: Nov 21, 2004 Posts: 686

On Fri, Mar 16, 2007 at 09:59:36AM +0200, Jurij Smakov wrote:
> I do agree with this interpretation.

Do you also agree that it is okay to break anything just for fun?

Bastian

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Bastian Blank · External Since: Nov 21, 2004 Posts: 686

On Sun, Mar 18, 2007 at 04:51:22PM +0100, Sven Luther wrote:
> Notice that Frans decided on this way of using the uploader field, and used it
> as weapon against me in his war against me.

Uh, uh. You are at least 2 years too late:
| $ svn log -r 1293 svn://svn.debian.org/d-i/trunk/packages/debian-installer-utils/debian/control
| ------------------------------------------------------------------------
| r1293 | waldi | 2002-11-17 19:47:07 +0100 (So, 17 Nov 2002) | 3 lines
|
| - add s390 support (uses fdasd)
| - remove depency to fdisk-udeb
|
| ------------------------------------------------------------------------
| $ svn cat -r 1293 svn://svn.debian.org/d-i/trunk/packages/debian-installer-utils/debian/control | head -n 7
| Source: debian-installer-utils
| Section: debian-installer
| Priority: standard
| Maintainer: Debian Install System Team <debian-boot.RemoveThis@lists.debian.org>
| Uploaders: David Kimdon <dwhedon.RemoveThis@debian.org>, Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen.RemoveThis@debian.org>
| Build-Depends: debhelper (>= 4.1.13), dpkg-dev (>= 1.9.0), libcdebconf-dev, po-debconf (>= 0.5.0)
| Standards-Version: 3.2.1

> I remember perfectly the older
> days of the d-i team, where you could add yourself as uploader, when you where
> actually working on a d-i package.

No. Someone always needed enough trust to not break it. A leaf package needs
rather small amount of trust, but core packages needs much more.

> I am not entirely sure that this is what is most wanted here, this is
> defitively not how the kernel team used to work, when it was most succesfull,
> where those actually doing the work could add themselves to the Uploader
> field, and actually do the upload.

The people had enough trust among the others to do that.

Bastian

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