Questions to the candidates

Kalle Kivimaa · External Since: Jun 03, 2004 Posts: 42

Frank Küster <frank.TakeThisOut@debian.org> writes:
> I'm confused. In your other mail you wrote

I think you find that *I* wrote what you quoted after this.

--
* Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) *
* PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer *

--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-REQUEST.TakeThisOut@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster.TakeThisOut@lists.debian.org

Frank Küster · External Since: Dec 08, 2005 Posts: 263

Steve McIntyre <steve.RemoveThis@einval.com> wrote:

> [ First of all, apologies for the delayed response; I'm catching up
> after several days of FOSDEM-plague Sad

]
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> On Sun, Feb 25, 2007 at 09:50:41AM +0100, Mike Hommey wrote:
>>Hi,
>>
>>These questions may be skipped by AJ, because the answers are obvious.
>>
>>What do you think of the dunc-tank initiative ? What do you think are
>>the result of the "experiment" ?
>
> I think that dunc-tank was a very good idea on the part of AJ, a DPL
> looking for new ways in which to help the release process.

I'm confused. In your other mail you wrote

,----
| My belief is that the DPL hat is something you can take off. Of
| course, the DPL must be very explict in this, but if I take the
| dunc-tank issue, which sparked my question, I think aj handled it not
| that badly. Maybe he could have been more clear but he most certainly
| had the moral right to be involved in dunc-tank.
`----

So do you think he was doing it as DPL looking for new ways, or as a DD?

Regards, Frank
--
Dr. Frank Küster
Single Molecule Spectroscopy, Protein Folding @ Inst. f. Biochemie, Univ. Zürich
Debian Developer (teTeX/TeXLive)

Raphael Hertzog · External Since: May 28, 2005 Posts: 534

On Sun, 04 Mar 2007, Frank Küster wrote:
> > I think that dunc-tank was a very good idea on the part of AJ, a DPL
> > looking for new ways in which to help the release process.
>
> I'm confused. In your other mail you wrote
>
> ,----
> | My belief is that the DPL hat is something you can take off. Of
> | course, the DPL must be very explict in this, but if I take the
> | dunc-tank issue, which sparked my question, I think aj handled it not
> | that badly. Maybe he could have been more clear but he most certainly
> | had the moral right to be involved in dunc-tank.
> `----
>
> So do you think he was doing it as DPL looking for new ways, or as a DD?

Please drop this, you know the history as well as everybody. Anthony
started the discussion with his DPL hat because he wanted to do that
within Debian.

After discussions, he decided to continue that experience outside of
Debian as DD. One can discuss how much he succeeded at that, but the
distinction between the initial idea launch as DPL and the setup as DD
should be pretty clear to any DD who followed the story.

Cheers,
--
Raphaël Hertzog

Premier livre français sur Debian GNU/Linux :
http://www.ouaza.com/livre/admin-debian/

--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-REQUEST.RemoveThis@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster.RemoveThis@lists.debian.org

Clint Adams · External Since: Nov 11, 2004 Posts: 1346

On Sun, Mar 04, 2007 at 10:02:29PM +0100, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
> After discussions, he decided to continue that experience outside of
> Debian as DD. One can discuss how much he succeeded at that, but the
> distinction between the initial idea launch as DPL and the setup as DD
> should be pretty clear to any DD who followed the story.

Huh. Here I thought he did it as an independent venture capitalist and
not as a DD.

--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-REQUEST.RemoveThis@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster.RemoveThis@lists.debian.org

Frank Küster · External Since: Dec 08, 2005 Posts: 263

Kalle Kivimaa <killer DeleteThis @debian.org> wrote:

> Frank Küster <frank DeleteThis @debian.org> writes:
>> I'm confused. In your other mail you wrote
>
> I think you find that *I* wrote what you quoted after this.

Uups, sorry. I was really confused. Just forget about it.

Regards, Frank

--
Dr. Frank Küster
Single Molecule Spectroscopy, Protein Folding @ Inst. f. Biochemie, Univ. Zürich
Debian Developer (teTeX/TeXLive)

Frank Küster · External Since: Dec 08, 2005 Posts: 263

Raphael Hertzog <hertzog.DeleteThis@debian.org> wrote:

> Please drop this, you know the history as well as everybody. Anthony
> started the discussion with his DPL hat because he wanted to do that
> within Debian.
>
> After discussions, he decided to continue that experience outside of
> Debian as DD. One can discuss how much he succeeded at that, but the
> distinction between the initial idea launch as DPL and the setup as DD
> should be pretty clear to any DD who followed the story.

I have followed the story, still to me it seems pretty clear that the
distinction is extremely blurred, at best.

I have not been among the prospective sponsors that dunc-tank asked, so
I don't know whether or how he informed that he was not doing that as
the DPL. But that even doesn't matter too much.

First of all, I think the fact that he is DPL will influence the other
party's decisions as soon as they know about it, no matter what hat he
is explicitly wearing. Second, I believe that anyone who is in a
political or management role that gives him power to influence something
*within*some*constitutional*limits*, then he really should accept these
limits and not try to pursue the same aims as a private person in
parallel. As a real-life example for this, I think a prime minister
should not be the owner of the near-monopolian TV and newspaper company
in the same country. Similarly, the DPL should not be on the board of an
external group that tries to influence Debian's inner workings, with
money or anything else.

[Need I stress that I do not want to compare our DPL with Berlusconi?
I'd oppose any of these mixed-roles no matter whether I like the aims
that the respective people pursue or not. I'm only giving two examples
for my general rule of separating internal and external infuences]

Regards, Frank

--
Dr. Frank Küster
Single Molecule Spectroscopy, Protein Folding @ Inst. f. Biochemie, Univ. Zürich
Debian Developer (teTeX/TeXLive)

MJ Ray · External Since: Jun 02, 2005 Posts: 273

Aigars Mahinovs <aigarius.DeleteThis@debian.org> wrote:
> * from the negative side we can see that Debian does not like money. In
> particular two things come to mind - Debian as a project should not pay
> people (any payments must be totally separate from Debian) and Debian
> does not necessary trust the paid developers (which was less of a
> concern this time).

QUESTION 1:

Some DDs expressed those views and some candidates seem to be interpreting
this as a general debian money-hate or business-hate. What evidence
is there that such views are either common or insurmountable?

As a consequence, I disagree with the conclusions at the moment.

QUESTION 2:

I also think that the whole 'hats' concept is flawed in at least two ways.
(Help, I'm channelling LUGRadio...)

Firstly, several candidates have not worn any comparable hat AFAIK,
so how could I decide whether they would use a DPL hat wisely? So, I
vote on how I expect that person would handle being the DPL. I suspect
others vote for similar reasons and that's why people vote differently.
In at least two cases, this means I'm voting against people because of
bad stuff they did wearing other hats.

Secondly, I believe the world at large (and the press) does not
see imaginary hats clearly, because normal people don't behave very
differently depending on headwear. Some use masks as an excuse to show
sides of their personality which they wouldn't usually show, but those
sides are still part of their personalities.

So, I would like to ask all candidates: what sides of your personality
will you try to show more or less if elected as DPL?

Thanks,
--
MJR/slef
My Opinion Only: see http://people.debian.org/~mjr/
Please follow http://www.uk.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct

--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-REQUEST.DeleteThis@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster.DeleteThis@lists.debian.org

Wouter Verhelst · External Since: Nov 08, 2004 Posts: 611

[It's not entirely clear whether you want everyone to reply to this, or
just Aigars. I'm answering anyway, just to be on the safe side Smile

]

On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 12:32:03PM +0000, MJ Ray wrote:
> QUESTION 1:
>
> Some DDs expressed those views and some candidates seem to be interpreting
> this as a general debian money-hate or business-hate. What evidence
> is there that such views are either common or insurmountable?
>
> As a consequence, I disagree with the conclusions at the moment.

I disagree with the premise that Debian in general hates either money or
business; consequently, I too disagree with that conclusion.

> QUESTION 2:
[...]
> So, I would like to ask all candidates: what sides of your personality
> will you try to show more or less if elected as DPL?

None; or, at least, not more than I currently do. Except, perhaps, on
IRC, but then I don't expect the press to appear there.

--
<Lo-lan-do> Home is where you have to wash the dishes.
-- #debian-devel, Freenode, 2004-09-22

--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-REQUEST.DeleteThis@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster.DeleteThis@lists.debian.org

MJ Ray · External Since: Jun 02, 2005 Posts: 273

Wouter Verhelst <wouter.TakeThisOut@debian.org> wrote:[...]
> [It's not entirely clear whether you want everyone to reply to this, or
> just Aigars. [...] ]

Sorry. I'm interested in replies from any candidates. I'll leave the
questions untrimmed below, just in case.

> On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 12:32:03PM +0000, MJ Ray wrote:
> > QUESTION 1:
> > Some DDs expressed those views and some candidates seem to be interpreting
> > this as a general debian money-hate or business-hate. What evidence
> > is there that such views are either common or insurmountable?
[...]
> > QUESTION 2:
> [...]
> > So, I would like to ask all candidates: what sides of your personality
> > will you try to show more or less if elected as DPL?
>
> None; or, at least, not more than I currently do. Except, perhaps, on
> IRC, but then I don't expect the press to appear there.

I warn you, there are reporters on IRC during meetings for sure.
--
MJR/slef
My Opinion Only: see http://people.debian.org/~mjr/
Please follow http://www.uk.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct

--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-REQUEST.TakeThisOut@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster.TakeThisOut@lists.debian.org

Raphael Hertzog · External Since: May 28, 2005 Posts: 534

Hi,

On Mon, 05 Mar 2007, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 12:32:03PM +0000, MJ Ray wrote:
> > QUESTION 1:
> >
> > Some DDs expressed those views and some candidates seem to be interpreting
> > this as a general debian money-hate or business-hate. What evidence
> > is there that such views are either common or insurmountable?
> >
> > As a consequence, I disagree with the conclusions at the moment.
>
> I disagree with the premise that Debian in general hates either money or
> business; consequently, I too disagree with that conclusion.

Same for me.

> > QUESTION 2:
> [...]
> > So, I would like to ask all candidates: what sides of your personality
> > will you try to show more or less if elected as DPL?

What sides have you identified in my personality? Smile

More seriously, while I'm not 100% happy with how the python transition
got handled, it's a good example of a difficult topic with two major
opponents that were blocking each other.

I jumped in and wrote parts of the missing code, discussed with both sides
what is acceptable and got the whole process moving again. I've been
thanked, I've been criticized, I've made difficult decisions (NMU
debhelper), I've made errors but I always tried to push for the best and
in the end we have gone forward.

Cheers,
--
Raphaël Hertzog

Premier livre français sur Debian GNU/Linux :
http://www.ouaza.com/livre/admin-debian/

--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-REQUEST DeleteThis @lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster DeleteThis @lists.debian.org

Wouter Verhelst · External Since: Nov 08, 2004 Posts: 611

On Tue, Mar 06, 2007 at 12:56:10AM +0000, MJ Ray wrote:
> Wouter Verhelst <wouter.DeleteThis@debian.org> wrote:[...]
> > None; or, at least, not more than I currently do. Except, perhaps, on
> > IRC, but then I don't expect the press to appear there.
>
> I warn you, there are reporters on IRC during meetings for sure.

Oh, sure, but then I didn't mean that. I meant the casual IRC
timewasting that I sometimes do, on #debian-devel. I don't expect much
of that to be interesting to the general press, and I don't think of
what I say there a lot. Which is precisely what IRC is meant for, IMHO.

--
<Lo-lan-do> Home is where you have to wash the dishes.
-- #debian-devel, Freenode, 2004-09-22

--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-REQUEST.DeleteThis@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster.DeleteThis@lists.debian.org

Josip Rodin · External Since: Aug 13, 2006 Posts: 82

On Fri, Mar 02, 2007 at 05:47:45AM +0100, Simon Richter wrote:
> The idea itself is not a bad one, however during the entire course of
> the experiment it was never questioned by the proponents that we should
> go through with it. Declaring it an experiment did not have the desired
> effect of magically creating a lab environment without connection to the
> outside world, so a bit of risk assessment would have been in order.

I agree with the assessment about declaring it an experiment. However, I
don't think it's fair to say that not even a *bit* of risk assessment was
done, because Anthony and others posted a lot to elaborate the 'pro'
position in the successive discussions, where he argued about the various
risks, too. Maybe those explanations were broken, or insufficient, or
off-topic, or evil, or whatever, but please explain that, don't just
dismiss them without a modicum of explanation.

I'm also not exactly comfortable with the idea that proponents not
questioning the execution of what they are proposing is a negative thing.
(Let's set aside the fact that the idea morphed along the way as it came
upon obstacles, implying that the proponents questioned at least some
aspects of the idea enough to change them.) My main point is - for people to
contemplate an idea, decide they want to do it, and then stick with the gist
of it until they succeed in implementing it - is such a thing really a
negative one? That would be too harsh IMO.

--
2. That which causes joy or happiness.

--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-REQUEST.RemoveThis@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster.RemoveThis@lists.debian.org