Questions to the candidates

Mike Hommey · External Since: Nov 09, 2004 Posts: 966

Hi,

These questions may be skipped by AJ, because the answers are obvious.

What do you think of the dunc-tank initiative ? What do you think are
the result of the "experiment" ?

Mike

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Gustavo Franco · External Since: May 09, 2006 Posts: 117

On 2/25/07, Mike Hommey <mh.TakeThisOut@glandium.org> wrote:
> Hi,

Hi Mike,

> These questions may be skipped by AJ, because the answers are obvious.

I would like to read his answers too.

> What do you think of the dunc-tank initiative ?

I think that the initiative affected the Debian community as a whole
for better. Initially, i was in favor of such thing (pay for RM) but
now i have a different view. I learned with the experiment, and i hope
i am not alone.

> What do you think are the result of the "experiment" ?

The result is that if we can reunite some fund, that's better use it
to put together a volunteer development meeting. Large events are
quite expensive, but you can organize smaller ones and i think that a
Debian Etch summit to put things in shape for release, open for anyone
interested in help the process: Paying for the infrastructure and
covering RM team expenses, would work way better.

Closing, thanks for your questions, i'll publish them with my answers
in my campaign page, ok?

regards,
-- stratus
http://stratusandtheswirl.blogspot.com

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Gustavo Franco · External Since: May 09, 2006 Posts: 117

On 2/25/07, Pierre Habouzit <madcoder RemoveThis @debian.org> wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 25, 2007 at 04:33:48PM -0200, Gustavo Franco wrote:
> > On 2/25/07, Mike Hommey <mh RemoveThis @glandium.org> wrote:
> > >Hi,
> >
> > Hi Mike,
> >
> > >These questions may be skipped by AJ, because the answers are obvious.
> >
> > I would like to read his answers too.
> >
> > >What do you think of the dunc-tank initiative ?
> >
> > I think that the initiative affected the Debian community as a whole
> > for better.
>
> Could you develop a bit ? I fail to see how tearing the community
> apart did made it better, at least I miss a step in your reasoning here.
>

Hi Pierre,

Yes, i can. Let us evaluate some of the fundamental things that makes
a community better:

- Sense of participation
There is no community without a group of individuals participating and
a better community is one where these individuals feel that they're
part of the group.

- Hard work
There is no doubt that hard work can be done to intentionally make a
community worse, but hard work usually makes a community better.

- Good results
Good results are interesting for the atmosphere, to bring more people
in the community and stuff like that.

- Hear Feedback
That's good when those who aren't direct involved in the community
feel that they're part, share this sense of participation with them
listening their feedback makes a better community.

The dunc-tank initiative give us the opportunity to exercise the four
things i outlined above. It would be great, work in a community where
you can exercise just that, but such community doesn't exist.
Unfortunately, there are the bad unintentional side effects or wrong
decisions. The balance of what make our community better or worse is
that need tweak. We're now better than we were before dunc-tank, but
it could be even better. Without the experiment? Maybe, but in a world
where it happened we can use it to learn as many are doing, and not to
flame forever.

regards,
-- stratus
http://stratusandtheswirl.blogspot.com

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Wouter Verhelst · External Since: Nov 08, 2004 Posts: 611

On Sun, Feb 25, 2007 at 09:50:41AM +0100, Mike Hommey wrote:
> Hi,
>
> These questions may be skipped by AJ, because the answers are obvious.
>
> What do you think of the dunc-tank initiative ?

I have always thought there is nothing inherently wrong with paying
people to do Debian work. I applaud aj in trying to find a consensus in
this controversial issue, where I feel he went above and beyond his
usual standards in such matters.

Having said that, I do not feel the dunc-tank initiative was a very good
idea; and this was mainly because by creating a structure for sponsoring
Debian Developers, it is possible to create the impression that using
this structure would be the only ethical way to sponsor Debian
Developers; I think this is wrong.

> What do you think are the result of the "experiment" ?

In the first place, a lot of unneeded controversy that could rather
easily have been avoided. I think more discussion could have been
useful, but also that this would have taken a long time to do, which
would have been impossible given the initial timeframe.

Other than that, I do think it's useful to discuss with all parties
involved what their opinion on the whole subject is. This would include
not only supporters of the experiment, financial sponsors, and
sponsorees, but also opponents. Crucial in this whole debate, I think,
would be to avoid any mud-slinging.

--
<Lo-lan-do> Home is where you have to wash the dishes.
-- #debian-devel, Freenode, 2004-09-22

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MJ Ray · External Since: Jun 02, 2005 Posts: 273

Gustavo Franco <stratus.DeleteThis@debian.org> wrote: [...]
> - Sense of participation
> There is no community without a group of individuals participating and
> a better community is one where these individuals feel that they're
> part of the group.
>
> - Hard work
> There is no doubt that hard work can be done to intentionally make a
> community worse, but hard work usually makes a community better.
>
> - Good results
> Good results are interesting for the atmosphere, to bring more people
> in the community and stuff like that.
>
> - Hear Feedback
> That's good when those who aren't direct involved in the community
> feel that they're part, share this sense of participation with them
> listening their feedback makes a better community.
>
> The dunc-tank initiative give us the opportunity to exercise the four
> things i outlined above. [...]

Perhaps opportunity, but did it happen?

- Sense of participation - many DDs chose to reduce their participation
because they felt unvalued, some publicly, some quietly;

- Hard work - the reduced participation made more work hard work IMO;

- Good results - did we release? Were any proper measurements taken?

- Hear feedback - and then ignore lots of it and take the process
effectively 'out of reach' of the project.

So, how are we better than we were before dunc-tank?

Puzzled,
--
MJR/slef
My Opinion Only: see http://people.debian.org/~mjr/
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Gustavo Franco · External Since: May 09, 2006 Posts: 117

On 2/26/07, MJ Ray <mjr DeleteThis @phonecoop.coop> wrote:
> Gustavo Franco <stratus DeleteThis @debian.org> wrote: [...]
> > - Sense of participation
> > There is no community without a group of individuals participating and
> > a better community is one where these individuals feel that they're
> > part of the group.
> >
> > - Hard work
> > There is no doubt that hard work can be done to intentionally make a
> > community worse, but hard work usually makes a community better.
> >
> > - Good results
> > Good results are interesting for the atmosphere, to bring more people
> > in the community and stuff like that.
> >
> > - Hear Feedback
> > That's good when those who aren't direct involved in the community
> > feel that they're part, share this sense of participation with them
> > listening their feedback makes a better community.
> >
> > The dunc-tank initiative give us the opportunity to exercise the four
> > things i outlined above. [...]
>
> Perhaps opportunity, but did it happen?

Hi MJ,

Yes, it happened, as bad things happened too.

> - Sense of participation - many DDs chose to reduce their participation
> because they felt unvalued, some publicly, some quietly;

Many discussed, others simple get more involved as shown below. I'm
not denying the fact that we lost some valuable contributions though.

> - Hard work - the reduced participation made more work hard work IMO;

Some worked harder to find and solve RC bugs.

> - Good results - did we release? Were any proper measurements taken?

Not yet, but i can't blame one of the most responsive key teams in the
project, as i can't blame the ones that decided to work harder on QA.

> - Hear feedback - and then ignore lots of it and take the process
> effectively 'out of reach' of the project

I don't think the feedback was ignored, but yes it was moved 'out of reach'.

> So, how are we better than we were before dunc-tank?

We're now closer to release Etch, we've for sure a better Etch (due
both dunc and dunc bank) and we're not anymore during the hard times
of a flamewar, are we? Smile

Thanks for your questions.

regards,
-- stratus
http://stratusandtheswirl.blogspot.com

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Mohammed Adnène · External Since: Nov 12, 2004 Posts: 18

On Mon, Feb 26, 2007, Gustavo Franco wrote:
> >- Hard work - the reduced participation made more work hard work IMO;
>
> Some worked harder to find and solve RC bugs.

Take a wall.

Take a car going fast towards this wall.

Take people working hard to take the wall down so that the car doesn't
hit it.

Was the car right to run for a crash test?

--
Mohammed Adnène Trojette

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Gustavo Franco · External Since: May 09, 2006 Posts: 117

On 2/26/07, Mohammed Adnène Trojette <adn.DeleteThis@diwi.org> wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 26, 2007, Gustavo Franco wrote:
> > >- Hard work - the reduced participation made more work hard work IMO;
> >
> > Some worked harder to find and solve RC bugs.
>
> Take a wall.
>
> Take a car going fast towards this wall.
>
> Take people working hard to take the wall down so that the car doesn't
> hit it.
>
> Was the car right to run for a crash test?

Hi Mohammed,

Unfortunately, this thread is diverting to a point where it seems that
i agreed with dunc-tank experiment. No, i didn't. Sometimes it's
harder to have a contrary opinion against something and express what
you think can be learned from the experience, even when it's just a
"let us don't repeat that never".

Answering your question more directly: Yes, while crash tests break a
car (or part of it) that could be used as a base for a new car, the
crash tests results tells a lot for those who are behind them. They
learn and i think we should learn with dunc-tank. Unfortunately or
not, it happened and now it's up to us evolve.

Thanks for your question anyway. Smile

regards,
-- stratus
http://stratusandtheswirl.blogspot.com

Kalle Kivimaa · External Since: Jun 03, 2004 Posts: 42

Pierre Habouzit <madcoder RemoveThis @debian.org> writes:
> I absolutely don't like the implications of that assertion.

Well, if an entity A feels that they would benefit from paying a DD
for his Debian work, they have two choices:

1. They can do it publicly, or
2. They can just work the details out with the DD and not announce
this anywhere.

Doing #1 entails taking a lot of heat from those DD's who feel that
paying DD's is a no-no. How many entities want to have their name
associated with postings like the ones we had with the Dunc-Tank
experiment?

The solution, of course, is to have a mailing list environment where
payment announcements would be welcomed, not flamed. I'm not sure how
we could achieve this. Ideas?

--
* Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) *
* PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer *

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Frank Küster · External Since: Dec 08, 2005 Posts: 263

Anthony Towns <aj.RemoveThis@azure.humbug.org.au> wrote:

> On Sun, Feb 25, 2007 at 09:50:41AM +0100, Mike Hommey wrote:
>> These questions may be skipped by AJ, because the answers are obvious.
>
> Hrm, I wonder if what's "obvious" matches what I actually think.
>
>> What do you think of the dunc-tank initiative ?
>
> I think people should be able to help Debian in whatever way they think
> is a good idea, as long as they don't expect anyone else to help them. If
> everyone in Debian but you thinks you're crazy, you should be able to
> go outside Debian and prove them wrong, and Debian shouldn't have any
> problem with that.

I don't understand how that relates to the question. dunc-tank was not
really "going outside Debian and prove them wrong", instead it was
"going half-outside and forcing a problematic decision", wasn't it?

Regards, Frank
--
Dr. Frank Küster
Single Molecule Spectroscopy, Protein Folding @ Inst. f. Biochemie, Univ. Zürich
Debian Developer (teTeX/TeXLive)

Josselin Mouette · External Since: Nov 09, 2004 Posts: 1057

Le mardi 27 février 2007 à 13:45 +0200, Kalle Kivimaa a écrit :
> Pierre Habouzit <madcoder.RemoveThis@debian.org> writes:
> > I absolutely don't like the implications of that assertion.
>
> Well, if an entity A feels that they would benefit from paying a DD
> for his Debian work, they have two choices:
>
> 1. They can do it publicly, or
> 2. They can just work the details out with the DD and not announce
> this anywhere.
>
> Doing #1 entails taking a lot of heat from those DD's who feel that
> paying DD's is a no-no.

I am *sick* of that assimilation of people against dunc-tank being those
who feel DDs can't be paid. Just stop the FUD.

> How many entities want to have their name
> associated with postings like the ones we had with the Dunc-Tank
> experiment?
>
> The solution, of course, is to have a mailing list environment where
> payment announcements would be welcomed, not flamed. I'm not sure how
> we could achieve this. Ideas?

I've never seen anyone on any mailing list have anything against
developers being paid by HP or Progeny - and an entity like HP manages
much more money than dunc-tank.

I've seen, though, people opposed to a project leader using his
notoriety as such to raise funds among DDs to pay people he chose.

--
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: :' : We are debian.org. Lower your prices, surrender your code.
`. `' We will add your hardware and software distinctiveness to
`- our own. Resistance is futile.

Kalle Kivimaa · External Since: Jun 03, 2004 Posts: 42

Josselin Mouette <joss DeleteThis @debian.org> writes:
> I am *sick* of that assimilation of people against dunc-tank being those
> who feel DDs can't be paid. Just stop the FUD.

Well, a brief look at the archives produced these exhibits:

[1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2006/10/msg00100.html
[2] http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2006/10/msg00060.html

So, although it is false to say that all people against Dunc-Tank are
against DDs being paid, I'd say that it is correct to say that some of
the people against Dunc-Tank are against (some, not all) DDs being
paid. The latter was what I meant, sorry if I was (again) unclear. I
need to work on my email writing skills.

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Martin Michlmayr · External Since: Dec 20, 2004 Posts: 1545

* Pierre Habouzit <madcoder.RemoveThis@debian.org> [2007-02-27 14:03]:
> In the context of A beeing the DPL, understand my reservations about
> it. Remember that the subject is dunc-tank, not _an_ anynymous foo
> structure, but the Project (or some part of it) paying Developers.

Huh, dunc-tank != the Project
--
Martin Michlmayr
http://www.cyrius.com/

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Frank Küster · External Since: Dec 08, 2005 Posts: 263

Kalle Kivimaa <killer.DeleteThis@debian.org> wrote:

> Pierre Habouzit <madcoder.DeleteThis@debian.org> writes:
>> I absolutely don't like the implications of that assertion.
>
> Well, if an entity A feels that they would benefit from paying a DD
> for his Debian work, they have two choices:
>
> 1. They can do it publicly, or
> 2. They can just work the details out with the DD and not announce
> this anywhere.
>
> Doing #1 entails taking a lot of heat from those DD's who feel that
> paying DD's is a no-no.

s/lot/small amount/;s/those DD's/at least 2 DDs/

and I am not even sure that the two people you cited in your answer to
Josselin actually were talking about a third party paying a DD.

> How many entities want to have their name
> associated with postings like the ones we had with the Dunc-Tank
> experiment?

The crucial point of the Dunc-Tank experiment was that it was not "an
entity A", but an effort led by the current DPL. If the DPL was
employed by a company that also want to pay other developers, they might
face similar opposition, but in every other case I do not expect this.
After all, it has been done for long, with nobody speaking up, not even
Joey and Thibaut.

I can only emphasize that I, too, do not like the implications of
Anthony's assertion.

Regards, Frank
--
Dr. Frank Küster
Single Molecule Spectroscopy, Protein Folding @ Inst. f. Biochemie, Univ. Zürich
Debian Developer (teTeX/TeXLive)

Clint Adams · External Since: Nov 11, 2004 Posts: 1346

> Huh, dunc-tank != the Project

Clint, the DD != Clint, the person mocking you right now.

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Raphael Hertzog · External Since: May 28, 2005 Posts: 533

Hi,

On Sun, 25 Feb 2007, Mike Hommey wrote:
> Hi,
>
> These questions may be skipped by AJ, because the answers are obvious.
>
> What do you think of the dunc-tank initiative ?

As you know, I've been involved in the dunc-tank board. I accepted the
offer of Anthony because I'm really interested in the topic of free
software funding and it was an opportunity to learn more.

I think we shouldn't be afraid of using money to enable us to do more
stuff sooner than otherwise.

Unfortunately we have big cultural differences when it comes to use of the
money. Some people are only interested in the positive result (steve and
andy worked hard to help us release etch sooner) while other feel they are
some sort of second class developers because they will never have that
opportunity to earn money while doing Debian stuff. Others are simply
embarassed by the initiative because it was led by the DPL (even if he
tried to make it clear that he was doing it as individual).

In the end, the like Sam said, the problem is not so much the "what has
been done" than the "how it has been done" (and by who it has been done).
The cultural gap exists and it even exists to some point within the
dunc-tank board.

On one hand, I have been advocating a transparent structure for funding
projects of all Debian developers. The donors would affect the money to
some projects and the developers would rate all the projects. Hopefully
the best rated projects get quickly funded because of this. This was
mentioned in a linux.com article: see "future directions" in
http://www.linux.com/article.pl?sid=06/09/21/1623232
and I also elaborated a bit in french in my blog
http://www.ouaza.com/wordpress/2006/09/19/dunc-tank-un-nouvel-outil-pour-debian/

On the other hand, a few members of dunc-tank seem to prefer having an
elected board which would decide how to wisely spend the money collected.

This cultural difference is something that can't be ignored as it has
generated quite a lot of unhappiness. We'll have to live with this
limitation and find an acceptable compromise, because even if that
initiative is over, it's certainly not the end of the story concerning the
topic of "funding Debian work".

> What do you think are the result of the "experiment" ?

* We have the proof that people are ready to give us more money if we can
show them concrete results in response.

* It's possible to be paid, to let people know that you're paid, and
and still work together as usual (sometimes even better, since the
contract imposed regular reports which resulted in blog entries which
have been useful to all of us who are watching the progress of the
release).

* Deciding what to pay (and hence who to pay) and how much to pay is
a very difficult task. How can we ensure effective use of the money
without giving the power to decide to a small subset of Debian people?

Cheers,
--
Raphaël Hertzog

Premier livre français sur Debian GNU/Linux :
http://www.ouaza.com/livre/admin-debian/

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Frank Küster · External Since: Dec 08, 2005 Posts: 263

Pierre Habouzit <madcoder RemoveThis @debian.org> wrote:

> On Wed, Feb 28, 2007 at 04:55:58PM +0100, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
>> Unfortunately we have big cultural differences when it comes to use of the
>> money. Some people [...] feel they are some sort of second class
>> developers because they will never have that opportunity to earn money
>> while doing Debian stuff.
>
> Hey, that's not really a cultural difference here. If you really
> already know for sure some people won't never ever get paid, how could
> they feel otherwise?
>
> And I'm curious, which "kind" of developer will never get paid?

For example, I'm a "kind" of developer who will never get paid: I have
a day job that doesn't have anything to do with Debian, or even Linux or
so. I am employed, not a freelancer. In the future, I won't even be
able to read Debian mail at work.

Therefore I will never be able to devote as much time to Debian as those
who have the opportunity to integrate it into their work more or less.

I don't feel bad about this, but it's a fact. And of course I will
never be able to be paid by the project itself because of that, but that
doesn't make me feel bad - neither about not being paid by the project
nor about not being paid for computer work at all.

So, personally I don't have any strong feelings against funding DDs, by
whichever means. I have strong feelings, though, against dunc-tank and
our current DPL's behavior in that field.

Regards, Frank
--
Dr. Frank Küster
Single Molecule Spectroscopy, Protein Folding @ Inst. f. Biochemie, Univ. Zürich
Debian Developer (teTeX/TeXLive)

Raphael Hertzog · External Since: May 28, 2005 Posts: 533

On Wed, 28 Feb 2007, Pierre Habouzit wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 28, 2007 at 04:55:58PM +0100, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
> > Unfortunately we have big cultural differences when it comes to use of the
> > money. Some people [...] feel they are some sort of second class
> > developers because they will never have that opportunity to earn money
> > while doing Debian stuff.
>
> Hey, that's not really a cultural difference here.

It's not indeed, and I said that to show that not everybody has the same
reason to dislike (or like) the initiative. However, the people who have
had the biggest problems with the initiative are those who have been
affected by the cultural difference.

> If you really already know for sure some people won't never ever get
> paid, how could they feel otherwise?
>
> And I'm curious, which "kind" of developer will never get paid?

Thijs and Frank already responded to those questions and I agree with
what they said.

> > * Deciding what to pay (and hence who to pay) and how much to pay is
> > a very difficult task. How can we ensure effective use of the money
>
> I suppose you meant efficient ?

You're french like me and I wonder what subtle difference you put between
those two words. When I do "dict effective" I have in the definition
"efficient" which means that both terms are closely related.

I meant effective as "producing a decided or decisive effect".

In any case, it's a bad habit of ours to discuss the choice of words
instead of concentrating on the general meaning of the sentence.
We're many non-native english speakers and we're not used to play
with subtle difference in words. Smile

> > without giving the power to decide to a small subset of Debian people?
>
> IMHO the answer is simple: do not let a subpart of Debian try to fund
> another subpart of it, and let third party contractors do that if they
> want. Or do not pay people, but events or devcamps for teams that have
> very important task to achieve and that can benefit from such camps.

That's a simple solution, but we're used to finding a good solution
instead of accepting a short-term hack. Smile

Cheers,
--
Raphaël Hertzog

Premier livre français sur Debian GNU/Linux :
http://www.ouaza.com/livre/admin-debian/

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Simon Richter · External Since: Dec 21, 2004 Posts: 112

Hello,

> What do you think of the dunc-tank initiative ? What do you think are
> the result of the "experiment" ?

I think we should have been able to see the outcome before trying it.

The idea itself is not a bad one, however during the entire course of
the experiment it was never questioned by the proponents that we should
go through with it. Declaring it an experiment did not have the desired
effect of magically creating a lab environment without connection to the
outside world, so a bit of risk assessment would have been in order.

The result is that in the future, we should be more cautious when
implementing project-wide changes. As expected, having someone work
full-time on the release brings us nearer to that goal, so I wouldn't
entirely disregard the idea of organizing funding for individual
developers, however any such endeavor needs to be in line with how
Debian actually works and not expect a cultural shift to happen.

Simon

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Aigars Mahinovs · External Since: Apr 21, 2005 Posts: 19

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

> What do you think of the dunc-tank initiative ? What do you think are
> the result of the "experiment" ?

I think that result is twofold:
* from the positive side we can see that people who are paid to do a
specific job, can do that job with a higher mid-term burst efficiency
and that money can be raised for such causes;
* from the negative side we can see that Debian does not like money. In
particular two things come to mind - Debian as a project should not pay
people (any payments must be totally separate from Debian) and Debian
does not necessary trust the paid developers (which was less of a
concern this time).

- From that I can surmise, that similar activities should continue under a
banner that is not in any (high livel) way connected to Debian or SPI
(no sharing of board members or DPL delegates being in the board) and
that there should be a community oversight over inclusion of the (larger
scale) work of paid developers into the project to prevent any
possibility of contamination by commercial interests.

- --
Best regards,
Aigars Mahinovs mailto:aigarius@debian.org
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| `. `' |
| `- |
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