Thoughts about the bug tracking system

"Carl_Fürstenberg · External Since: Jul 21, 2007 Posts: 23

On 7/21/07, Don Armstrong <don DeleteThis @debian.org> wrote:
> Yes, reportbug has the option of responding to a bug report instead of
> submitting a new one, but you can send a plain e-mail if you want too.
> Whatever is easier for you.
>
>
> Don Armstrong
>

Is there any kind of commandline option? as I at the moment cannot see
the --help of reportbug (bug #434011) I really don't know.

/Carl

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Don Armstrong · External Since: Jan 24, 2005 Posts: 236

On Sat, 21 Jul 2007, Bastian Venthur wrote:
> On 21.07.2007 13:36 schrieb Brice Goglin:
> > Sune Vuorela wrote:
> >> I prefer reportbug-ng over any webinterface to recieve bug reports. All
> >> the information about the reporters system that is automatically
> >> gathered about architecture, package versions and such.
> >
> > reportbug-ng does *not* gather all the information about the reporters
> > system... see #422085
>
> This bug is about replicating a reportbug specific feature. In my
> opinion most of the time it is not necessary to always collect all
> possibly useful information about the reporters system.

As has been indicated in the thread in #422085, and by other people,
this additional information has been specifically requested by package
maintainers because it is necessary for resolving the vast majority of
bug reports that they face. Maintainers wouldn't bother to include
scripts in /usr/share/bug/<package>/ if they didn't use the
information provided.

The inability of web frontends to easily provide this information (and
the generic package versioning/distribution information) has long been
one of the reasons why I personally have not written one for
debbugs,[1] and its one of things that I expect the web frontends in
development to attempt to tackle by providing clear instructions for
users to prepare the attachment.

There's no reason why reportbug-ng should behave any differently,
especially when the information is so trivial to attain.

[That said, I've no problem with the severity that this bug is at; I
just disagree with the apparent judgement that it's an unworthy
feature addition.]

Don Armstrong

1: and indeed why #277744 and friends is wontfix
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Don Armstrong · External Since: Jan 24, 2005 Posts: 236

On Sat, 21 Jul 2007, Bastian Venthur wrote:
> For me the reference how to write bug reports is described here:
>
> http://www.debian.org/Bugs/Reporting.en.html
>
> where /usr/share/bugs is not even mentioned.

I'm not really sure if that's the appropriate place to document
/usr/share/bugs, but since reportbug is mentioned in the 6th
paragraph, it is kind of included by reference. [It appears that
debian-bug.el doesn't actually do the /usr/share/bugs/<package>/*;
thing either, so someone who actually uses that probably should file a
wishlist bug.]

That said, it would be rather trivial for me to add a brief paragraph
explaining how to run those scripts and supply the output in the bug
reporting instructions; perhaps I'll do so.

Don Armstrong

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Bastian Venthur · External Since: Oct 25, 2006 Posts: 251

On 21.07.2007 16:19 schrieb Don Armstrong:
> On Sat, 21 Jul 2007, Bastian Venthur wrote:
>> For me the reference how to write bug reports is described here:
>>
>> http://www.debian.org/Bugs/Reporting.en.html
>>
>> where /usr/share/bugs is not even mentioned.
>
> I'm not really sure if that's the appropriate place to document
> /usr/share/bugs, but since reportbug is mentioned in the 6th
> paragraph, it is kind of included by reference. [It appears that

Not really -- at least not in my eyes. In my understanding this site
documents how to file bug reports. Reportbug and others are introduced
as tools to help to ease the pain of doing it by hand. But that does not
imply something like: emulate one of those tools' behavior as close as
possible.

/usr/share/bugs was in my opinion a reportbug specific feature, since it
wasn't documented on the above site on how to report bugs and since it
was the only program I knew which used the scripts in there.

> debian-bug.el doesn't actually do the /usr/share/bugs/<package>/*;
> thing either, so someone who actually uses that probably should file a
> wishlist bug.]
>
> That said, it would be rather trivial for me to add a brief paragraph
> explaining how to run those scripts and supply the output in the bug
> reporting instructions; perhaps I'll do so.

While you're at it, can you please also add reportbug-ng to the list of
tools helping the user to provide bug reports?

Cheers,

Bastian

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Andreas Barth · External Since: Jul 31, 2005 Posts: 867

* Bastian Venthur (venthur@debian.org) [070721 16:43]:
> /usr/share/bugs was in my opinion a reportbug specific feature, since it
> wasn't documented on the above site on how to report bugs and since it
> was the only program I knew which used the scripts in there.

/usr/share/bugs isn't reportbug specific, otherwise it would be
/usr/share/reportbug. I really think it is essential to use the scripts
there, at least for the average user. That helped my quite often to
resolve bug reports without an extra round of asking information.

> While you're at it, can you please also add reportbug-ng to the list of
> tools helping the user to provide bug reports?

Can you please add support for /usr/share/bugs first?

Cheers,
Andi
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"Carl_Fürstenberg · External Since: Jul 21, 2007 Posts: 23

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Bastian Venthur · External Since: Oct 25, 2006 Posts: 251

On 21.07.2007 16:43 schrieb gregor herrmann:
> On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 15:52:07 +0200, Carl Fürstenberg wrote:
>
>>> Please have a look at reportbug-ng, it might fulfill your preferences
>>> better.
>> I tried reportbug-ng, and the interface was good, but I didn't manage
>> to send a report, as I didn't had any mail program installed,
>
> Ouch, probably reportbug-ng should depend on the supported mail user
> agents (Bastian, you're reading here, aren't you)?

Hmm I wasn't prepared for users not having any mail client installed, I
should indeed depend on mail-reader or provide a pseudo mail client
"clipboard" or "textfile" in the list. Thanks for the tip!

Cheers,

Bastian

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Bastian Venthur · External Since: Oct 25, 2006 Posts: 251

On 21.07.2007 15:00 schrieb Steve Langasek:
> On Sat, Jul 21, 2007 at 02:44:45PM +0200, Bastian Venthur wrote:
>> On 21.07.2007 13:36 schrieb Brice Goglin:
>>> reportbug-ng does *not* gather all the information about the reporters
>>> system... see #422085
>
>> This bug is about replicating a reportbug specific feature.
>
> No, it's about making use of infrastructure that has been in place since
> before reportbug was written (/usr/share/bug refers originally to the 'bug'
> package).

Ok, so if it isn't really a reportbug specific feature, then the usage
of this infrastructure is surely documented somewhere isn't it?

So where's the usage of files in /usr/share/bug documented? I wasn't
able to find the documentation, but I'm sure I have read it somewhere.

Cheers,

Bastian

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Bastian Venthur · External Since: Oct 25, 2006 Posts: 251

On 21.07.2007 18:04 schrieb Frans Pop:
> On Saturday 21 July 2007 17:50, Bastian Venthur wrote:
>> So where's the usage of files in /usr/share/bug documented? I wasn't
>> able to find the documentation, but I'm sure I have read it somewhere.
>
> $ less /usr/share/doc/reportbug/README.developers

At least now it should be clear why I assumed it is a reportbug
*specific* feature.

Cheers,

Bastian

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Alan Woodland · External Since: Mar 16, 2006 Posts: 60

Carl Fürstenberg wrote:
> When I'm locking at the BTS, I sometimes get the feeling it was either
> designed a long time ago, or that it was designed by real hardcore
> developers. Not that it isn't effective, as when you have learned the
> whole system, you can query it pretty fast, but the threshold is
> pretty steep.
The single feature I'd most like to see added to the web interface is
RSS feeds, for the information on qa.debian.org, packages.qa.debian.org
and bugs.debian.org pages. Has anyone looked at doing this before? It
might make a good SoC project for next year?

Alan

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Oleg Verych · External Since: Jul 12, 2007 Posts: 13

* 21-07-2007, Steve Langasek

> The scripts in /usr/share/bug/ are *created by the package maintainers to
> collect information they believe should be present in bug reports about
> their packages*. Asserting that maintainers "have the option" to ask for
> more info is just stupid; the whole point of having
> /usr/share/bug/$package/script is to save a round trip with the submitter,
> and to save the submitter (who may not be very adept at all) the trouble of
> figuring out how to capture this information to a mail by hand.

That's funny. It is in my TODO list to add dropping tainted(P) reports for
linux-image, after i saw many "tainted -- not supported here". Before that
i'm trying to develop skills i need to do so in the right way. I've
accidently found /u/s/bug while doing current project. I've mentioned
this among other advantages former and current Debian members have
developed WRT bugs, while expressing opinion on how linux kernel
currently (mis)dealing with this.

It seem there some more for current leader to do on social ground. Are
there more deep disagreements hidden somewhere in the BTS, hm?
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Oleg Verych · External Since: Jul 12, 2007 Posts: 13

21-07-2007, Marc 'HE' Brockschmidt <he.DeleteThis@ftwca.de> ÐÉÛÅÔ:
> --=-=-=
>
> Oleg Verych <for.gmane.DeleteThis@flower.upol.cz> writes:
>>> Please either address the points raised by the message you're replying
>>> to, or don't.
>> IMHO that message was a hand waving not deserving reading. Thus i
>> dissagre, that i didn't addressed its points in my reply.
>
> If you feel there were no points raised you need to comment on, just
> don't send mail in the future. Thanks.

Points that i've shamelessly added there are what i was thinking about
for a while. Eventually it came in. I really would like to have technical
start for any thread here. But it seems users reflect some DDs nowdays
(no offense)...

As about replying, i will better be red quiet about (:

Message-ID: <46A22303.4080901.DeleteThis@debian.org>
User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.4 (Windows/20070604)
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Yavor Doganov · External Since: Jun 25, 2007 Posts: 3

Don Armstrong wrote:
>
> [It appears that debian-bug.el doesn't actually do the
> /usr/share/bugs/<package>/*; thing either [...]

It does but relies on reportbug for this.

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Erik Schanze · External Since: Mar 08, 2005 Posts: 34

Hi Carl,

"Carl FÃ¼rstenberg" <azatoth DeleteThis @gmail.com>:
> The major problem with the current system, is that it requires that
> the reporter has access to a mail server, if they want to use the
> more easier variant by using reportbug script. their other
> alternative is to send an email from their webmail (I assume that
> they don't have access to an smtp server, and are prohibited to use
> one by them self by port 25 blocking) using a complicated syntax to
> be able to send "correct" reports.
>
You could use reportbug and save the report into a text file
rather sending a mail.
Then you could cut'n'paste the text into your webmailer message field.
No need to learn any syntax.

Kindly regards,

Erik

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Manoj Srivastava · External Since: Dec 07, 2004 Posts: 678

On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 10:50:15 +0200, Bastian Venthur <venthur RemoveThis @debian.org> said:

> Carl Fürstenberg wrote:
>> The major problem with the current system, is that it requires that
>> the reporter has access to a mail server, if they want to use the
>> more easier variant by using reportbug script. their other
>> alternative is

> This is not true, reportbug can send mails directly to the BTS
> without you needing your own mail server.

>> to send an email from their webmail

> Or, if you prefer a GUI application with out of the box support for
> most mail clients, try reportbug-ng.

My major problem with reportbug-ng was that is is very hard to
configure -- at least, I could not get it to use my preferred MUA; it
has a limited selection of what it considers acceptable user agents,
and if you are not using it, then you are out of luck.

manoj

ps: for the record, I use emacsclient + gnus-mail ; and have managed
to configure iceweasel to use that as well; but reportbug-ng is less
configurable
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Manoj Srivastava · External Since: Dec 07, 2004 Posts: 678

On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 17:17:21 +0200, gregor herrmann <gregor+debian@comodo.priv.at> said:

> On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 16:59:49 +0200, Bastian Venthur wrote:
>> >> I tried reportbug-ng, and the interface was good, but I didn't
>> >> manage to send a report, as I didn't had any mail program
>> >> installed,
>> > Ouch, probably reportbug-ng should depend on the supported mail
>> > user agents (Bastian, you're reading here, aren't you)?
>> Hmm I wasn't prepared for users not having any mail client
>> installed, I should indeed depend on mail-reader or

> I think depending on the virtual package "mail-reader" is not the
> best solution because there are more MUAs that provide it than rng
> currently supports. Probably listing the MUAs from ReportbugNG.py
> explicitly might be better.

Gnus and Vm, for example.

manoj
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Bastian Venthur · External Since: Oct 25, 2006 Posts: 251

Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 10:50:15 +0200, Bastian Venthur <venthur DeleteThis @debian.org> said:
>> Or, if you prefer a GUI application with out of the box support for
>> most mail clients, try reportbug-ng.
>
> My major problem with reportbug-ng was that is is very hard to
> configure -- at least, I could not get it to use my preferred MUA; it
> has a limited selection of what it considers acceptable user agents,

Why do you think I consider some mail clients "unacceptable"? In fact I
try to include as much mail clients as possible. I just need to know them.

> and if you are not using it, then you are out of luck.

That's not true. As I already told you, all you have to do is to send me
a valid call of your mail client where the composer opens with to-,
subject- and body prefilled.

Most mail clients I know support either

foo-mua mailto:mail@example.com?subject=foosubject&body=foobody

or

foo-mua -to mail DeleteThis @example.com -subject foosubject -body foobody

Send me the name of your mail client you're missing and a working call
and I'll include it.

Cheers,

Bastian

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Adeodato Simó · External Since: Dec 09, 2005 Posts: 103

* Bastian Venthur [Sun, 22 Jul 2007 10:34:06 +0200]:

> That's not true. As I already told you, all you have to do is to send me
> a valid call of your mail client where the composer opens with to-,
> subject- and body prefilled.

This reminds me: do you know about /usr/bin/xdg-email (from package
xdg-utils)? I don't know if reportbug must get a MUA configured before
being able to send reports; if so, xdg-email would be a very good
default value. (It checks the configuration settings of the running
desktop environment, and launches the configured MUA.)

Cheers,

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Manoj Srivastava · External Since: Dec 07, 2004 Posts: 678

On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 10:34:06 +0200, Bastian Venthur <venthur RemoveThis @debian.org> said:

> Manoj Srivastava wrote:
>> On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 10:50:15 +0200, Bastian Venthur
>> <venthur RemoveThis @debian.org> said:
>>> Or, if you prefer a GUI application with out of the box support for
>>> most mail clients, try reportbug-ng.
>>
>> My major problem with reportbug-ng was that is is very hard to
>> configure -- at least, I could not get it to use my preferred MUA; it
>> has a limited selection of what it considers acceptable user agents,

> Why do you think I consider some mail clients "unacceptable"? In fact
> I try to include as much mail clients as possible. I just need to know
> them.

My mail client is a script, ~/bin/mail-handler; which, I think,
is not permissible in reportbug-ng. In other words, the user can not
configure the reporter; they can ask the author to add in some standard
mail clients; but not the non-standard ones.

>> and if you are not using it, then you are out of luck.

> That's not true. As I already told you, all you have to do is to send
> me a valid call of your mail client where the composer opens with to-,
> subject- and body prefilled.

But this is not configuration; and the lack of configurability
is what I complained about. I can't tell reportbug-ng about my one off
simple little script that does some stuff and sends mail out.

What you are talking about is your willingness to add in any of
thousands of mail clients that users might request (which, BTW, might
not scale all that well if reportbug-ng gets popular and all kinds of
people start sending in strange requests, and then later, other people
send in bug reports about how the behaviour of all the gazillion mail
clients has changed subtly and broken the bug reporting software).

> Most mail clients I know support either
> foo-mua mailto:mail@example.com?subject=foosubject&body=foobody
> or
> foo-mua -to mail RemoveThis @example.com -subject foosubject -body foobody

> Send me the name of your mail client you're missing and a working call
> and I'll include it.

~/bin/mail-handler --subject 'foosubject' --to 'tosomeone' < body

I can also handle the old BSD 4.4 Lite mail programs command
line syntax. What if the location changes? Or I change the syntax of my
mailing script (to, say, do some security related stuff [like passing
the mail through a guard program t redact sensitive material])?

manoj
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Michael Banck · External Since: Nov 10, 2004 Posts: 498

On Sat, Jul 21, 2007 at 04:42:48PM +0200, Bastian Venthur wrote:
> While you're at it, can you please also add reportbug-ng to the list of
> tools helping the user to provide bug reports?

I'd rather suggest to add a paragraph discouraging users from using rng
at this point, until it meets the developer's expectations, sorry.

Michael

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