RMS: "I would rather have no software than closed software."

 
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DFS
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Since: Jun 07, 2005
Posts: 3651



PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:16 am    Post subject: Re: RMS: "I would rather have no software than closed software." [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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wrote:

> That they can only do what they can where they have a choice. It's up
> to him what software he runs on his computer, and I believe him when
> he says he won't run proprietary software on it,

I believe if he had a choice he would choose open source, but if there were
no open source software I don't believe for one second he would refuse to
use all closed source code.

He's a blowhard. The OSS world is full of them.



> but it's not up to
> him what software runs an aeroplane or a blood lab.

Then maybe he should say "As much as possible, I avoid the use of closed
software."

Instead he couches it in almost religious terms, when in fact he violates
his "tenet" immediately if it's convenient, ie take a car or airplane that
runs closed-source code and contributes to a restriction of everyone's
"freedom".
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casioculture
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Since: May 27, 2005
Posts: 199



PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:31 am    Post subject: Re: RMS: "I would rather have no software than closed software." [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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DFS wrote:
> wrote:
>
> > That they can only do what they can where they have a choice. It's up
> > to him what software he runs on his computer, and I believe him when
> > he says he won't run proprietary software on it,
>
> I believe if he had a choice he would choose open source, but if there were
> no open source software I don't believe for one second he would refuse to
> use all closed source code.

It's no different from the ancient guidance. Stick to your principles
where you have a choice, where you don't, you're excused. Eat halal
where you have a choice, where you don't, don't starve yourself.

>
> He's a blowhard. The OSS world is full of them.
>

I think you mean he's human, and the world is full of them. He's not
omnipotent, he can only do what he can.

>
>
> > but it's not up to
> > him what software runs an aeroplane or a blood lab.
>
> Then maybe he should say "As much as possible, I avoid the use of closed
> software."
>
> Instead he couches it in almost religious terms, when in fact he violates
> his "tenet" immediately if it's convenient, ie take a car or airplane that
> runs closed-source code and contributes to a restriction of everyone's
> "freedom".

An Aeroplane is a bad example. I don't think people "use" the
aeroplane's source code, nor anyone would want them to.
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casioculture
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Since: May 27, 2005
Posts: 199



PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 7:38 am    Post subject: Re: RMS: "I would rather have no software than closed software." [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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DFS wrote:
> wrote:
>
> What, you never met Mohandas K. Ghandi?
>

Nope. I never met him. Who is he? Sounds like an extremist to me.


>
>
>
> >> He's a blowhard. The OSS world is full of them.
> >
> > I think you mean he's human, and the world is full of them. He's not
> > omnipotent, he can only do what he can.
>
> This is true - but he's still a blowhard making a bogus claim. If closed
> software was the only option in the world, and he truly "would rather have
> none", then he would be writing everything longhand w/ pen and paper or
> using a Royal typewriter, couldn't email, surf the 'closed-source' web,
> couldn't give presentations w/ graphics, couldn't blab his leftist politics
> on a website, couldn't take or download digital photos, etc. In short, he
> could hardly function in today's world. I don't see him returning to life
> as it was in the 60's and 70's.
>

Hey. There are open-source browsers, mail clients and infrastructure,
presentation apps with graphics, leftist politics websites, and so on.
I also think much of the web and email runs on linux/bsd. I am almost
sure too that the websites he uses run on that too. I have a hard time
imagining him wanting to use websites that use MS. I don't know what
myspace uses and I don't care to find out, but can you imagine him on
such teeny-popper sites? No. I can't.

Anyhow, I don't see what the big deal is. I too rather use no software
instead of using closed-source software. In fact, I do now. What does
that mean? Well, i'd rather write my own little scripts that output to
plaintext files instead of using something like MSAccess or Excel.




>
> Whatever example, then. A toaster, let's say, or a bike computer or Tivo
> machine. Lots of modern toasters and bike computers and Tivo have chips and
> embedded, proprietary code the manufacturer won't give away. I'm quite sure
> he would use a modern toaster or bike computer or Tivo regardless of the
> closed code.
>
> Therefore, his claim is empty.

I think you're just nitpicking.

Can you imagine a mechanical toaster? yes, I can, and I wouldn't miss
the computer inside it, nor would I care to hack it. Can you imagine a
mechanical emacs? no, I have a hard time doing so, and I wouldn't care
for a closed-source emacs.
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casioculture
External


Since: May 27, 2005
Posts: 199



PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:19 am    Post subject: Re: RMS: "I would rather have no software than closed software." [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Kier wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Sep 2006 03:38:02 -0700, casioculture wrote:
>
> >
> > DFS wrote:
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> What, you never met Mohandas K. Ghandi?
> >>
> >
> > Nope. I never met him. Who is he? Sounds like an extremist to me.
> >
>
> No offence, mate, but are you serious? If you haven't heard of Ghandi I
> suggest you educate yourself.
>
> --
> Kier

I heard of him, for sure, but never met him.
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DFS
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Since: Jun 07, 2005
Posts: 3651



PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:53 am    Post subject: Re: RMS: "I would rather have no software than closed software." [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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wrote:
> DFS wrote:
>> wrote:
>>
>>> That they can only do what they can where they have a choice. It's
>>> up to him what software he runs on his computer, and I believe him
>>> when he says he won't run proprietary software on it,
>>
>> I believe if he had a choice he would choose open source, but if
>> there were no open source software I don't believe for one second he
>> would refuse to use all closed source code.
>
> It's no different from the ancient guidance. Stick to your principles
> where you have a choice, where you don't, you're excused. Eat halal
> where you have a choice, where you don't, don't starve yourself.

What, you never met Mohandas K. Ghandi?




>> He's a blowhard. The OSS world is full of them.
>
> I think you mean he's human, and the world is full of them. He's not
> omnipotent, he can only do what he can.

This is true - but he's still a blowhard making a bogus claim. If closed
software was the only option in the world, and he truly "would rather have
none", then he would be writing everything longhand w/ pen and paper or
using a Royal typewriter, couldn't email, surf the 'closed-source' web,
couldn't give presentations w/ graphics, couldn't blab his leftist politics
on a website, couldn't take or download digital photos, etc. In short, he
could hardly function in today's world. I don't see him returning to life
as it was in the 60's and 70's.




>>> but it's not up to
>>> him what software runs an aeroplane or a blood lab.
>>
>> Then maybe he should say "As much as possible, I avoid the use of
>> closed software."
>>
>> Instead he couches it in almost religious terms, when in fact he
>> violates his "tenet" immediately if it's convenient, ie take a car
>> or airplane that runs closed-source code and contributes to a
>> restriction of everyone's "freedom".
>
> An Aeroplane is a bad example. I don't think people "use" the
> aeroplane's source code, nor anyone would want them to.

Whatever example, then. A toaster, let's say, or a bike computer or Tivo
machine. Lots of modern toasters and bike computers and Tivo have chips and
embedded, proprietary code the manufacturer won't give away. I'm quite sure
he would use a modern toaster or bike computer or Tivo regardless of the
closed code.

Therefore, his claim is empty.
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Linonut
External


Since: Mar 31, 2006
Posts: 3492



PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:49 am    Post subject: Re: RMS: "I would rather have no software than closed software." [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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After takin' a swig o' grog, DFS belched out this bit o' wisdom:

> Whatever example, then. A toaster, let's say, or a bike computer or Tivo
> machine. Lots of modern toasters and bike computers and Tivo have chips and
> embedded, proprietary code the manufacturer won't give away. I'm quite sure
> he would use a modern toaster or bike computer or Tivo regardless of the
> closed code.
>
> Therefore, his claim is empty.

You don't know that. He may live a Shaker-like existence, apart from
computing.

--
Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with your Microsoft product.
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Kier
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Since: Feb 07, 2005
Posts: 2207



PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 1:27 pm    Post subject: Re: RMS: "I would rather have no software than closed software." [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Wed, 13 Sep 2006 22:16:10 -0400, DFS wrote:

> wrote:
>
>> That they can only do what they can where they have a choice. It's up
>> to him what software he runs on his computer, and I believe him when
>> he says he won't run proprietary software on it,
>
> I believe if he had a choice he would choose open source, but if there were
> no open source software I don't believe for one second he would refuse to
> use all closed source code.

That's *why* he created the open source software that he has, so that he
doesn't have to use closed source, idiot!

>
> He's a blowhard. The OSS world is full of them.

So is the closed source world. Why don't you email him and find out what
reception you get when you tell him he's a liar.

--
Kier
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DFS
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Since: Jun 07, 2005
Posts: 3651



PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 1:27 pm    Post subject: Re: RMS: "I would rather have no software than closed software." [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Kier wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Sep 2006 22:16:10 -0400, DFS wrote:
>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> That they can only do what they can where they have a choice. It's
>>> up to him what software he runs on his computer, and I believe him
>>> when he says he won't run proprietary software on it,
>>
>> I believe if he had a choice he would choose open source, but if
>> there were no open source software I don't believe for one second he
>> would refuse to use all closed source code.
>
> That's *why* he created the open source software that he has, so that
> he doesn't have to use closed source

The way I read his claim is "if closed software were the only option, I
would rather have no software."



> , idiot!

numskull!



>> He's a blowhard. The OSS world is full of them.
>
> So is the closed source world.

Where?



> Why don't you email him and find out
> what reception you get when you tell him he's a liar.

Stay tuned.
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Kier
External


Since: Feb 07, 2005
Posts: 2207



PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 3:24 pm    Post subject: Re: RMS: "I would rather have no software than closed software." [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Thu, 14 Sep 2006 05:53:55 -0400, DFS wrote:

> wrote:
>> DFS wrote:
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> That they can only do what they can where they have a choice. It's
>>>> up to him what software he runs on his computer, and I believe him
>>>> when he says he won't run proprietary software on it,
>>>
>>> I believe if he had a choice he would choose open source, but if
>>> there were no open source software I don't believe for one second he
>>> would refuse to use all closed source code.
>>
>> It's no different from the ancient guidance. Stick to your principles
>> where you have a choice, where you don't, you're excused. Eat halal
>> where you have a choice, where you don't, don't starve yourself.
>
> What, you never met Mohandas K. Ghandi?
>
>
>
>
>>> He's a blowhard. The OSS world is full of them.
>>
>> I think you mean he's human, and the world is full of them. He's not
>> omnipotent, he can only do what he can.
>
> This is true - but he's still a blowhard making a bogus claim. If closed
> software was the only option in the world, and he truly "would rather have
> none", then he would be writing everything longhand w/ pen and paper or
> using a Royal typewriter, couldn't email, surf the 'closed-source' web,
> couldn't give presentations w/ graphics, couldn't blab his leftist politics
> on a website, couldn't take or download digital photos, etc. In short, he
> could hardly function in today's world. I don't see him returning to life
> as it was in the 60's and 70's.
>
>
>
>
>>>> but it's not up to
>>>> him what software runs an aeroplane or a blood lab.
>>>
>>> Then maybe he should say "As much as possible, I avoid the use of
>>> closed software."
>>>
>>> Instead he couches it in almost religious terms, when in fact he
>>> violates his "tenet" immediately if it's convenient, ie take a car
>>> or airplane that runs closed-source code and contributes to a
>>> restriction of everyone's "freedom".
>>
>> An Aeroplane is a bad example. I don't think people "use" the
>> aeroplane's source code, nor anyone would want them to.
>
> Whatever example, then. A toaster, let's say, or a bike computer or Tivo
> machine. Lots of modern toasters and bike computers and Tivo have chips and
> embedded, proprietary code the manufacturer won't give away. I'm quite sure
> he would use a modern toaster or bike computer or Tivo regardless of the
> closed code.
>
> Therefore, his claim is empty.

Only if you can prove what you say. And you can't.

--
Kier
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Kier
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Since: Feb 07, 2005
Posts: 2207



PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 3:57 pm    Post subject: Re: RMS: "I would rather have no software than closed software." [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Thu, 14 Sep 2006 03:38:02 -0700, casioculture wrote:

>
> DFS wrote:
>> wrote:
>>
>> What, you never met Mohandas K. Ghandi?
>>
>
> Nope. I never met him. Who is he? Sounds like an extremist to me.
>

No offence, mate, but are you serious? If you haven't heard of Ghandi I
suggest you educate yourself.

--
Kier
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Kier
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Since: Feb 07, 2005
Posts: 2207



PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:28 pm    Post subject: Re: RMS: "I would rather have no software than closed software." [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Thu, 14 Sep 2006 04:19:37 -0700, casioculture wrote:

>
> Kier wrote:
>> On Thu, 14 Sep 2006 03:38:02 -0700, casioculture wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > DFS wrote:
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> What, you never met Mohandas K. Ghandi?
>> >>
>> >
>> > Nope. I never met him. Who is he? Sounds like an extremist to me.
>> >
>>
>> No offence, mate, but are you serious? If you haven't heard of Ghandi I
>> suggest you educate yourself.
>>
>> --
>> Kier
>
> I heard of him, for sure, but never met him.

Nor me. It's a sad reflection on the world that it produces far more
leaders of the Hitler or Saddam or bin Laden type that it ever does the
Ghandi's.

--
Kier
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Larry Qualig
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Since: Nov 11, 2005
Posts: 1106



PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:28 am    Post subject: Re: RMS: "I would rather have no software than closed software." [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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DFS wrote:
> Ugh... he's just plain disturbing.
>
> http://people.kde.nl/celeste.html


Making outrageous statements like this keeps him in the news. It's
doubtful he actually means it. But it doesn't really matter because the
point of saying this was to gain publicity and press.
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Larry Qualig
External


Since: Nov 11, 2005
Posts: 1106



PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:11 pm    Post subject: Re: RMS: "I would rather have no software than closed software." [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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DFS wrote:
> Larry Qualig wrote:
> > DFS wrote:
> >> Ugh... he's just plain disturbing.
> >>
> >> http://people.kde.nl/celeste.html
> >
> >
> > Making outrageous statements like this keeps him in the news. It's
> > doubtful he actually means it. But it doesn't really matter because
> > the point of saying this was to gain publicity and press.
>
> Welcome back, Mr. Qualig. What's new?

"Mr. Qualig???" - Is my dad here too?

Seriously though, thanks DFS. I actually got back almost 2 weeks ago (
we returned Labor Day weekend ) but I've been busy since then catching
up on all the stuff that accumulated during my vacation. I'm actually
somewhat worn down and feel like I'm coming down with a cold or
something.

Even Labor Day weekend was a bit crazy. Our vacation ended in NYC where
we had tickets to see the US-Open tennis tournament. The matches got
rained out but we had a great time in the city anyway. Our flight
brought us home to Boston Sunday morning and within 30 minutes of
walking in the door we had to drive one of our daughters to college.
The next day (Monday) I had tickets to the Deutsche Bank golf
tournament that's played out here in Norton, MA and we got to see Tiger
win his 5th straight.

Ahhh, it's good to finally settle in again.
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Larry Qualig
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Since: Nov 11, 2005
Posts: 1106



PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:18 pm    Post subject: Re: RMS: "I would rather have no software than closed software." [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Jesse F. Hughes wrote:
> "Larry Qualig" writes:
>
> > Making outrageous statements like this keeps him in the news. It's
> > doubtful he actually means it. But it doesn't really matter because
> > the point of saying this was to gain publicity and press.
>
> I'm not sure that a single KDE "interview" with developer Celeste Lyn
> Paul counts as keeping RMS "in the news". Any other accounts of him
> saying this?

No idea where else he might have said this. I didn't even read the
initial interview. My point is that for many people such as RMS there
is a knowledge that in order to make news and get press they have to
make outrageous and contraversial statements. If all he made were basic
"bland" statements then it wouldn't be much of a read. Despite their
ideals, people in his position realize that there is a bit of
showmanship required in order to garnish peoples attention. No better
way of doing this than to make outrageous statements that you can never
be taken to task on. ( Can anyone ever prove he doesn't mean this? Of
course not. )


> --
> Jesse F. Hughes
> "Even I, who know beyond doubt that my death will be caused by a silly
> girl, will not hesitate when that girl passes by." -- Merlin, as
> reported by John Steinbeck.
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DFS
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Since: Jun 07, 2005
Posts: 3651



PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 2:52 pm    Post subject: Re: RMS: "I would rather have no software than closed software." [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Larry Qualig wrote:
> DFS wrote:
>> Ugh... he's just plain disturbing.
>>
>> http://people.kde.nl/celeste.html
>
>
> Making outrageous statements like this keeps him in the news. It's
> doubtful he actually means it. But it doesn't really matter because
> the point of saying this was to gain publicity and press.

Welcome back, Mr. Qualig. What's new?
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Linonut
External


Since: Mar 31, 2006
Posts: 3492



PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 3:01 pm    Post subject: Re: RMS: "I would rather have no software than closed software." [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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After takin' a swig o' grog, Donn Miller belched out this bit o' wisdom:

> flatfish+++ wrote:
>
>> "What is your most brilliant KDE hack?
>>
>> Somehow convincing developers that usability is important during the
>> development cycle......"
>
> And that's exactly why commercial software sells so well despite all the
> open source apps. The interfaces are usually far better thought out.

Where are you living, Donn, in a cave?

Sure, there are some dog interfaces in Linux land. But check out the
ones in Windows land:

Microsoft Word XP
Rational ClearCase and ClearQuest
Microsoft Outlook

> I mean, some form of mkisofs | cdrecord issued at the command prompt
> is probably far more powerful than gcombust, but not many are willing to
> try the first option. Smile Until more effort is spent on improving
> usability of open source apps, Linux will be relegated to the niche of
> an advanced user/server OS. Most distros have done a fine job for
> years. But a lot of users still insist on Windows, because it and the
> commercial apps to them are the "de facto standard".

Shitty though their interfaces may be.

--
Speak softly and carry a cellular phone.
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Linonut
External


Since: Mar 31, 2006
Posts: 3492



PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 3:02 pm    Post subject: Re: RMS: "I would rather have no software than closed software." [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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After takin' a swig o' grog, Larry Qualig belched out this bit o' wisdom:

> DFS wrote:
>> Ugh... he's just plain disturbing.
>>
>> http://people.kde.nl/celeste.html
>
> Making outrageous statements like this keeps him in the news. It's
> doubtful he actually means it. But it doesn't really matter because the
> point of saying this was to gain publicity and press.

You talking about RMS, Ballmer, or McBride?

--
"We ... come ... in ... ... ... peace!"
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Jesse F. Hughes
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Since: Nov 04, 2004
Posts: 301



PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 3:06 pm    Post subject: Re: RMS: "I would rather have no software than closed software." [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Larry Qualig" writes:

> Making outrageous statements like this keeps him in the news. It's
> doubtful he actually means it. But it doesn't really matter because
> the point of saying this was to gain publicity and press.

I'm not sure that a single KDE "interview" with developer Celeste Lyn
Paul counts as keeping RMS "in the news". Any other accounts of him
saying this?


--
Jesse F. Hughes
"Even I, who know beyond doubt that my death will be caused by a silly
girl, will not hesitate when that girl passes by." -- Merlin, as
reported by John Steinbeck.
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news
External


Since: Sep 15, 2006
Posts: 3



PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:00 pm    Post subject: Re: RMS: "I would rather have no software than closed software." [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Kier wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Sep 2006 04:19:37 -0700, casioculture wrote:
>
> >
> > Kier wrote:
> >> On Thu, 14 Sep 2006 03:38:02 -0700, casioculture wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> > DFS wrote:
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> What, you never met Mohandas K. Ghandi?
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > Nope. I never met him. Who is he? Sounds like an extremist to me.
> >> >
> >>
> >> No offence, mate, but are you serious? If you haven't heard of Ghandi I
> >> suggest you educate yourself.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Kier
> >
> > I heard of him, for sure, but never met him.
>
> Nor me. It's a sad reflection on the world that it produces far more
> leaders of the Hitler or Saddam or bin Laden type that it ever does the
> Ghandi's.
>
> --
> Kier

Or the George W. Bush type... ?
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Mark Kent
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Since: Feb 09, 2005
Posts: 5602



PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:23 pm    Post subject: Re: RMS: "I would rather have no software than closed software." [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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begin oe_protect.scr
Donn Miller espoused:
> Kier wrote:
>> On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 20:40:46 +0200, Hadron Quark wrote:
>>
>>> "DFS" writes:
>
>>> He even denies there is a gang!
>>
>> The only gang here is you and DFS and flatfish and all the other arseholes.
>>
>
> Cmon Kier, admit it. All of Hadron's, DFS', and flatfish's neighbors
> leave and come home at the same time as they do, and it's all because of
> you and your hidden COLA citizen gang!
>

Could be a series of short stories, couldn't it? "Kier and the gang go
internationally assasinating", or perhaps a pop-band; "The cola gang,
featuring Kier".

--
| Mark Kent -- mark at ellandroad dot demon dot co dot uk |
"If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward,
then we are a sorry lot indeed."
-- Albert Einstein
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