Proposal: GR to deal with effects of a personal dispute

Wouter Verhelst · External Since: Nov 08, 2004 Posts: 611

On Thu, May 31, 2007 at 11:41:28AM +0200, Sven Luther wrote:
> On Thu, May 31, 2007 at 09:47:11AM +0100, MJ Ray wrote:
> > No, you are just a DD whose access to lists has been suspended.
>
> A sub-DD all the same, what about all those others who participated in
> those flamewars ?

Sven, with all due respect, please do not try to be party and judge at
the same time. Not only does that not work, it also makes you look
rather bad.

I understand you want to be a Debian Developer again, with all rights
and privileges which that implies, but can we please take this process
one step at a time? First, find a way out of the current situation that
gives you voting and upload rights again without pissing off others.

I understand you don't want the situation to remain like that forever,
but nobody's said it has to.

Sometimes, in life, you have to make compromises; and if you don't want
to compromise, then there are two options: either you get kicked out
entirely, or the fight between you and "the rest of the world" continues
until the end of times.

--
Shaw's Principle:
Build a system that even a fool can use, and only a fool will
want to use it.

--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-REQUEST.RemoveThis@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster.RemoveThis@lists.debian.org

Sven Luther · External Since: May 27, 2007 Posts: 34

On Thu, May 31, 2007 at 07:10:14PM +0200, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> On Thu, May 31, 2007 at 11:41:28AM +0200, Sven Luther wrote:
> > On Thu, May 31, 2007 at 09:47:11AM +0100, MJ Ray wrote:
> > > No, you are just a DD whose access to lists has been suspended.
> >
> > A sub-DD all the same, what about all those others who participated in
> > those flamewars ?
>
> Sven, with all due respect, please do not try to be party and judge at
> the same time. Not only does that not work, it also makes you look
> rather bad.

Wouter, i am just pointing out that there are more than one to
participate in a flamewar, and pinpointing me is more of the same
injustice which is at the heart of this mess.

Notice that if the situation where inversed, and i was on the winning
side, i would have said exactly the same. That said, if the situation
where inversed this issue would be solved since ages or would never have
arrised.

I have been thinking about this issue since a long time, and despite
what is claimed, i have a very good understanding about what is going
wrong, what i feel, as well as what the others in this feel. Upto a
point at least, since i understand how they feel but not why.

> I understand you want to be a Debian Developer again, with all rights
> and privileges which that implies, but can we please take this process
> one step at a time? First, find a way out of the current situation that
> gives you voting and upload rights again without pissing off others.

Exact. That is the problem. The fact that people would get pissed by the
situation being solved fairly is in itself an indication that there is a
problem beside myself.

> I understand you don't want the situation to remain like that forever,
> but nobody's said it has to.
>
> Sometimes, in life, you have to make compromises; and if you don't want
> to compromise, then there are two options: either you get kicked out
> entirely, or the fight between you and "the rest of the world" continues
> until the end of times.

Well, i have proposed many compromises, including the first one since
the begining of this mess. I have yet to see a compromise proposal
toward me though, so let's see.

I am not forcing the issue, just pointing out my point of view, but if
nobody is interested ...

Friendly,

Sven Luther

--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-REQUEST RemoveThis @lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster RemoveThis @lists.debian.org

Brian May · External Since: Nov 13, 2006 Posts: 102

>>>>> "Sven" == Sven Luther <luther.RemoveThis@debian.org> writes:

>> > Do we really want to go into creating castes of DDs ?
>>
>> No, but it's already happened. Let's move on.

Sven> I prefer fixing it, now is the right moment to solve it once
Sven> and for all in the right way.

Just an observation:

This whole problem seems to be because everyone, from both "sides", is
thinking about the situation in terms of what *they* want or don't
want:

* I want these flame wars to go away
* I want the mailing lists to become technical content again
* I want Sven to go away and not come back
* I want Sven to stop posting so much
* I want Sven to stop posting inflammatory posts
* I want to be sure these problems don't reoccur
* I want Debian to treat me fairly
* I want Debian to treat developers fairly
* I want Debian to have fare processes to deal with this in the future
* I want ...
* etc

Some of these may or may not conflict. No particular order. I probably
missed some.

This strategy is not going to work. Just saying "I want ..." is not
going to convince the other party to change their mind and give it to
you.

Even the approach "if you give me X I will give you Y" may not work,
unless people trust that you will give Y.

A better approach is required - repeatedly banging your head against
the wall is not going to help. No matter how hard or how long you do
it for.
--
Brian May <bam.RemoveThis@snoopy.debian.net>

--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-REQUEST.RemoveThis@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster.RemoveThis@lists.debian.org

Sven Luther · External Since: Nov 08, 2004 Posts: 305

On Fri, Jun 01, 2007 at 11:43:29AM +1000, Brian May wrote:
> >>>>> "Sven" == Sven Luther <luther.TakeThisOut@debian.org> writes:
>
> >> > Do we really want to go into creating castes of DDs ?
> >>
> >> No, but it's already happened. Let's move on.
>
> Sven> I prefer fixing it, now is the right moment to solve it once
> Sven> and for all in the right way.
>
> Just an observation:
>
> This whole problem seems to be because everyone, from both "sides", is
> thinking about the situation in terms of what *they* want or don't
> want:
>
> * I want these flame wars to go away
> * I want the mailing lists to become technical content again
> * I want Sven to go away and not come back
> * I want Sven to stop posting so much
> * I want Sven to stop posting inflammatory posts
> * I want to be sure these problems don't reoccur
> * I want Debian to treat me fairly
> * I want Debian to treat developers fairly
> * I want Debian to have fare processes to deal with this in the future
> * I want ...
> * etc
>
> Some of these may or may not conflict. No particular order. I probably
> missed some.
>
> This strategy is not going to work. Just saying "I want ..." is not
> going to convince the other party to change their mind and give it to
> you.

Notice that in the above, i said : "i prefer fixing it", and notice the
semantic difference between that and "i want". But then maybe we don't
speak the same language. I guess none of this matters though, since
debian has decided to expulse me anyway, just like they did for
Jonathan/Ted Walter, without ever thinking of setting up a procedure to
handle expulsion fairly.

Sadly,

Sven Luther

--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-REQUEST.TakeThisOut@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster.TakeThisOut@lists.debian.org

Brian May · External Since: Nov 13, 2006 Posts: 102

>>>>> "Sven" == Sven Luther <luther.RemoveThis@debian.org> writes:

Sven> Notice that in the above, i said : "i prefer fixing it", and
Sven> notice the semantic difference between that and "i
Sven> want".

True - I might have oversimplified...

Sven> But then maybe we don't speak the same language. I
Sven> guess none of this matters though, since debian has decided
Sven> to expulse me anyway, just like they did for Jonathan/Ted
Sven> Walter, without ever thinking of setting up a procedure to
Sven> handle expulsion fairly.

Sad

--
Brian May <bam.RemoveThis@snoopy.debian.net>

--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-REQUEST.RemoveThis@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster.RemoveThis@lists.debian.org

Hamish Moffatt · External Since: Nov 09, 2004 Posts: 460

On Wed, May 30, 2007 at 01:28:13PM +0200, Frank Küster wrote:
> MJ Ray <mjr RemoveThis @phonecoop.coop> wrote:
>
> > 1. Sven Luther is suspended from all debian lists for a year, which
> > should be similar to (b), because the project generally liked his
> > two-month self-suspension and wishes not to receive his discussion
> > contributions at the moment.
> [...]
> > 3. Sven Luther is reinstated as a full developer, reversing (a),
> > because the project wishes to receive his technical contributions.
>
> It seems with 1 in operation, he cannot act his developer Powers
> according to constitution 3.1, numbers 2 "propose or second draft
> General Resolutions" and 3 "propose themselves as a Project Leader
> candidate in elections".

FWIW a suspended developer doesn't have such powers anyway.

Hamish
--
Hamish Moffatt VK3SB <hamish RemoveThis @debian.org> <hamish RemoveThis @cloud.net.au>

--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-REQUEST RemoveThis @lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster RemoveThis @lists.debian.org

Ian Jackson · External Since: Mar 01, 2005 Posts: 200

MJ Ray writes ("Proposal: GR to deal with effects of a personal dispute"):
> There is a lamentable personal dispute between Sven Luther and some
> other developers. There have been some attempts at reconciliation and
> various offers, but none have succeeded in ending this dispute.
....
> 1. Sven Luther is suspended [...]

This is absurd. We need a general way of dealing with these kind of
problems which does not include GRs !

Ian.

--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-REQUEST.TakeThisOut@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster.TakeThisOut@lists.debian.org

Sven Luther · External Since: Nov 08, 2004 Posts: 305

On Fri, Jun 01, 2007 at 10:39:46AM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:
> MJ Ray writes ("Proposal: GR to deal with effects of a personal dispute"):
> > There is a lamentable personal dispute between Sven Luther and some
> > other developers. There have been some attempts at reconciliation and
> > various offers, but none have succeeded in ending this dispute.
> ...
> > 1. Sven Luther is suspended [...]
>
> This is absurd. We need a general way of dealing with these kind of
> problems which does not include GRs !

We needed it a year ago already, and back then the only way was the DPL,
who failed, and oriented me at a GR.

I applaud your proposal, even if it is too late to do me any good, but
please have a look at the propsoals i have made in response to
anthony's. I think it is important to set up these things in order to
not even allow for the impression of foul play in the future.

Look at real-life court, they have had centuries to fine-tune these
procedures, and have a mechanism of dealing with the few loop-holes
left.

Friendly,

Sven Luther

--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-REQUEST DeleteThis @lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster DeleteThis @lists.debian.org

Ian Jackson · External Since: Mar 01, 2005 Posts: 200

Sven Luther writes ("Re: Proposal: GR to deal with effects of a personal dispute"):
> On Fri, Jun 01, 2007 at 10:39:46AM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:
> > [stuff]
>
> I applaud your proposal, [...]

OMG WTF. I'm very sorry everyone. Obviously it must have been a
terrible idea. I take it back.

Ian.

--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-REQUEST.TakeThisOut@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster.TakeThisOut@lists.debian.org

Sven Luther · External Since: Nov 08, 2004 Posts: 305

On Fri, Jun 01, 2007 at 12:08:04PM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:
> Sven Luther writes ("Re: Proposal: GR to deal with effects of a personal dispute"):
> > On Fri, Jun 01, 2007 at 10:39:46AM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:
> > > [stuff]
> >
> > I applaud your proposal, [...]
>
> OMG WTF. I'm very sorry everyone. Obviously it must have been a
> terrible idea. I take it back.

Ok, Ian, Since i have already been expulsed, don't you think that this
you said above was gloating and unjust provocation ?

I don't expect you are sensible enough to present apologizes, but it is
fun how the DPL accused me of lacking empathy, and then how you could
say stuff like the above without feeling shame.

For everyone,

I was expulsed because i was the target of a FUD campaign, and most
everything people reproach to me, is also something that people like Ian
above are to a degree also coupable of.

People was afraid of a fair trial, where i could have presented my
evidence, and been able to provide argumentation, instead people send
menaces and provocation of the above kind my way, and then they wonder
why i felt agressed.

Disgusted,

Sven Luther

--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-REQUEST.TakeThisOut@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster.TakeThisOut@lists.debian.org

Wouter Verhelst · External Since: Nov 08, 2004 Posts: 611

On Thu, May 31, 2007 at 08:47:26PM +0200, Sven Luther wrote:
> On Thu, May 31, 2007 at 07:10:14PM +0200, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> > On Thu, May 31, 2007 at 11:41:28AM +0200, Sven Luther wrote:
> > > On Thu, May 31, 2007 at 09:47:11AM +0100, MJ Ray wrote:
> > > > No, you are just a DD whose access to lists has been suspended.
> > >
> > > A sub-DD all the same, what about all those others who participated in
> > > those flamewars ?
> >
> > Sven, with all due respect, please do not try to be party and judge at
> > the same time. Not only does that not work, it also makes you look
> > rather bad.
>
> Wouter, i am just pointing out that there are more than one to
> participate in a flamewar,

We all know that, so that doesn't exactly help anyone.

> and pinpointing me is more of the same injustice which is at the heart
> of this mess.

Maybe so; but OTOH, if you keep pointing fingers to other people, then
that doesn't exactly help resolve the situation; on the contrary.

I'm not saying you're wrong if you claim other people did something
wrong; I'm only saying you're not helping anyone or anything by doing
so.

> Notice that if the situation where inversed, and i was on the winning
> side, i would have said exactly the same. That said, if the situation
> where inversed this issue would be solved since ages or would never have
> arrised.

You can't know that. It may very well be that in such a situation the
other end wouldn't want a compromise.

[...]
> > I understand you want to be a Debian Developer again, with all rights
> > and privileges which that implies, but can we please take this process
> > one step at a time? First, find a way out of the current situation that
> > gives you voting and upload rights again without pissing off others.
>
> Exact. That is the problem. The fact that people would get pissed by the
> situation being solved fairly is in itself an indication that there is a
> problem beside myself.

I'm not contesting that; all I'm saying is that your all-or-nothing
approach does little to help alleviate the problem.

The fact is, currently you can't get it all; so I suggest you take your
losses and deal with what you /can/ get. After all, a bit is better than
nothing at all, isn't it?

Nobody claims that the process has to stop there and then. Rome wasn't
built in a day; and besides decades of negotiations, peace in the Middle
East and Northern Ireland isn't completely reality yet either.

If you want to say that your end goal is to get more than what you'll
get out of this, then I understand that, and I don't think anyone can
object to that; but if you want your immediate goal to be more, then
sorry, but you won't get that.

[...]
--
Shaw's Principle:
Build a system that even a fool can use, and only a fool will
want to use it.

--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-REQUEST.DeleteThis@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster.DeleteThis@lists.debian.org

Sven Luther · External Since: May 27, 2007 Posts: 34

On Fri, Jun 01, 2007 at 02:29:34PM +0200, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> On Thu, May 31, 2007 at 08:47:26PM +0200, Sven Luther wrote:
> > On Thu, May 31, 2007 at 07:10:14PM +0200, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> > > On Thu, May 31, 2007 at 11:41:28AM +0200, Sven Luther wrote:
> > > > On Thu, May 31, 2007 at 09:47:11AM +0100, MJ Ray wrote:
> > > > > No, you are just a DD whose access to lists has been suspended.
> > > >
> > > > A sub-DD all the same, what about all those others who participated in
> > > > those flamewars ?
> > >
> > > Sven, with all due respect, please do not try to be party and judge at
> > > the same time. Not only does that not work, it also makes you look
> > > rather bad.
> >
> > Wouter, i am just pointing out that there are more than one to
> > participate in a flamewar,
>
> We all know that, so that doesn't exactly help anyone.

Yet, i was the only punished. Why is that ?

> > and pinpointing me is more of the same injustice which is at the heart
> > of this mess.
>
> Maybe so; but OTOH, if you keep pointing fingers to other people, then
> that doesn't exactly help resolve the situation; on the contrary.

I kept asking for a fair trial.

> I'm not saying you're wrong if you claim other people did something
> wrong; I'm only saying you're not helping anyone or anything by doing
> so.

how can you justify people getting so angry when i asked to be handed
fairly ?

> > Notice that if the situation where inversed, and i was on the winning
> > side, i would have said exactly the same. That said, if the situation
> > where inversed this issue would be solved since ages or would never have
> > arrised.
>
> You can't know that. It may very well be that in such a situation the
> other end wouldn't want a compromise.

Well, given that all was in the hand of frans, i can tell you that if
the situation where inversed, and i had all the possibility to solve it,
and was offered a conciliation, i would have jumped on it.

This is because i am a good guy, probably too good, which is why i
suffered here.

> > > I understand you want to be a Debian Developer again, with all rights
> > > and privileges which that implies, but can we please take this process
> > > one step at a time? First, find a way out of the current situation that
> > > gives you voting and upload rights again without pissing off others.
> >
> > Exact. That is the problem. The fact that people would get pissed by the
> > situation being solved fairly is in itself an indication that there is a
> > problem beside myself.
>
> I'm not contesting that; all I'm saying is that your all-or-nothing
> approach does little to help alleviate the problem.

All or nothing ? Again, this is FUD. In may 2006, i proposed a
reasonable compromise to Steve, involving me stopping from posting on
the debian-boot mailing list, but being able to work on d-i without
restriction. Does this sound all or nothing ? Even Steve Langasek said
it was a reasonable proposal (but *shurg* he did say).

> The fact is, currently you can't get it all; so I suggest you take your
> losses and deal with what you /can/ get. After all, a bit is better than
> nothing at all, isn't it?

i can get nothing, i never could. It was always : *YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT IT
AND THAT IS IT*.

> Nobody claims that the process has to stop there and then. Rome wasn't

Heu, the current state seems pretty definitive. There is no place for a
continuation, and when i tried to propose a mediation, and a meeting at
debconf, people shouted at me.

> built in a day; and besides decades of negotiations, peace in the Middle
> East and Northern Ireland isn't completely reality yet either.

Right. But the death are dead.

> If you want to say that your end goal is to get more than what you'll
> get out of this, then I understand that, and I don't think anyone can
> object to that; but if you want your immediate goal to be more, then
> sorry, but you won't get that.

My end goal is to be handled fairly, to get blamed for the
responsability i have, but no more, and that both parties are equally
blamed. But this was apparently too much to ask.

Sadly,

Sven Luther

--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-REQUEST RemoveThis @lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster RemoveThis @lists.debian.org

Cord Beermann · External Since: Mar 17, 2005 Posts: 59

Hallo! Du (Ian Jackson) hast geschrieben:

>OMG WTF. I'm very sorry everyone. Obviously it must have been a
>terrible idea. I take it back.

It's enough, there has been a decision and there is no use in comments
like this.

and now back to work.
Cord

--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-vote-REQUEST DeleteThis @lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster DeleteThis @lists.debian.org