[News] Encouraging Game Developers to Make Linux Ports

Roy Schestowitz · External Since: Jun 26, 2005 Posts: 26141

Linux Gaming Made Easy

,----[ Quote ]
| Going Native. With the possible exceptions of Battlefield 2 and
| perhaps World of Warcraft, I simply can't see the advantage in
| supporting games that choose not to support us. To me, the short
| answer to this is to support those gaming companies that have worked
| very hard to make sure that Linux admirers are not being left out in
| the dark.
`----

http://www.madpenguin.org/cms/?m=show&id=7579

Related:

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,2023188,00.asp?kc=ETRSS0212...1K00005

New CrossOver Runs WoW, Half-Life 2 On Linux

Linux / Mac Steam client Petition:

http://www.petitiononline.com/steam1/petition.html

Gamers for Linux petition:

http://www.gamersforlinux.com/

Mark Kent · External Since: Feb 09, 2005 Posts: 5565

begin oe_protect.scr
Roy Schestowitz <newsgroups.DeleteThis@schestowitz.com> espoused:
> Linux Gaming Made Easy
>
> ,----[ Quote ]
>| Going Native. With the possible exceptions of Battlefield 2 and
>| perhaps World of Warcraft, I simply can't see the advantage in
>| supporting games that choose not to support us. To me, the short
>| answer to this is to support those gaming companies that have worked
>| very hard to make sure that Linux admirers are not being left out in
>| the dark.
> `----
>
> http://www.madpenguin.org/cms/?m=show&id=7579
>
> Related:
>
> http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,2023188,00.asp?kc=ETRSS0212...1K00005
>
> New CrossOver Runs WoW, Half-Life 2 On Linux
>
> Linux / Mac Steam client Petition:
>
> http://www.petitiononline.com/steam1/petition.html
>
> Gamers for Linux petition:
>
> http://www.gamersforlinux.com/

We've had the debate here many times on Wine/Crossover/Cedega. There're
a few main considerations:

1. Wine/Crossover/Cedega (WCC) allows linux users to execute many Windows
binaries in perfectly usable form without needing to purchase Windows.

2. WCC discourages developers from creating native linux binaries, as
once they see that their Windows binary runs well enough in Linux,
they'll not bother to maker a native port.

3. WCC (winelib) makes porting easier for developers, as winelib is a
native linux lib itself, so they can compile directly against it rather
than rewriting for eg., xlibs.

4. WCC coders are doing a good job, and should be encouraged.

After that, I'm not sure that there's much to add, except:

5. Windows Vista's OpenGL support is essentially crippled, as Microsoft
seek to make creation of cross-platform games as difficult as possible.

6. The next generation of games consoles are predominantly Linux-based,
although one will likely remain on legacy Windows.

--
| Mark Kent -- mark at ellandroad dot demon dot co dot uk |
Q: Heard about the <ethnic> who couldn't spell?
A: He spent the night in a warehouse.

Oliver Wong · External Since: Apr 27, 2006 Posts: 1398

> Roy Schestowitz <newsgroups RemoveThis @schestowitz.com> espoused:
>> Linux Gaming Made Easy
>>
>> ,----[ Quote ]
>>| Going Native. With the possible exceptions of Battlefield 2 and
>>| perhaps World of Warcraft, I simply can't see the advantage in
>>| supporting games that choose not to support us. To me, the short
>>| answer to this is to support those gaming companies that have worked
>>| very hard to make sure that Linux admirers are not being left out in
>>| the dark.
>> `----

The author seems to be under the misconception that games are
interchangeable. e.g., whether I use OpenOffice or Microsoft Office, the end
result is pretty much the same, therefore anyone who is loves Super Mario
Kart is should be perfectly fine with Tux Racer, right? Or people who like
Morrowind Oblivion should enjoy a good game of NetHack. Or People who like
Warcraft III should settle for Battle for Wesnoth, right?

Generally speaking, if a gamer wants to play game Foo, then game Bar,
which is of the same genre or style, isn't going to cut it. And most gamers
will buy whatever it is they have to buy in order to get their game working,
without any thoughts of idealogical principles of FOSS vs CSS or Linux vs
Windows, etc. Case in point: I didn't buy the XBox360 not because I hate
Microsoft, but simply because there were no good games for it. But now that
it's been announced that "Guitar Hero 2" is going to be released for the
360, I'm strongly considering getting a 360.

Boycotting games that haven't been released on Linux may be a noble act
and all that, but if the end goal is getting companies to publish more games
for Linux, I think this strategy is short sighted. If you're the type of
person who says "My desire to support Linux is stronger than my desire to
plunk down cold hard cash to buy games", then you're not exactly the target
audience the game is being marketed at anyway.

I think a better idea would be software bounties: If you want a game to
be ported to Linux, put some money into a bounty for that game.
Specifically, that means you'd put add $60 to a pool of money and add your
name to a list of guaranteed sales if they make a Linux port. If the pool of
money grows to between a million to ten million dollars (I.e. 20'000-100'000
Linux users willing to contribute around $60), you can be sure the companies
which own the license are going to take interest. If they release the game,
they get to collect the bounty, and you get your copy of the game, since
you've already paid for it via the bounty (in fact, the company may choose
to release it for free [as in beer] once they collect the bounty). If a year
or two goes by, and they don't release the game, you get your money back.

And the bank-like organization which takes care of babysitting your
money for that year, and does all the administrative task of making sure the
money goes to the company should the bounty be fufilled, gets to make money
off of the interest from sitting on such a large lump of money. Everybody
wins.

[...]
"Mark Kent" <mark.kent RemoveThis @demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:i3vbv3-b48.ln1@ellandroad.demon.co.uk...
>
> 5. Windows Vista's OpenGL support is essentially crippled, as Microsoft
> seek to make creation of cross-platform games as difficult as possible.

You've been corrected on this (see
http://groups.google.ca/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/0646a9c7be7276b9)
so please stop spreading this lie.

- Oliver

JEDIDIAH · External Since: Sep 24, 2004 Posts: 1070

On 2006-10-04, Hadron Quark <qadronhuark RemoveThis @geemail.com> wrote:
> "Oliver Wong" <owong RemoveThis @castortech.com> writes:
>
>>> Roy Schestowitz <newsgroups RemoveThis @schestowitz.com> espoused:
>>>> Linux Gaming Made Easy
>>>>
>>>> ,----[ Quote ]
>>>>| Going Native. With the possible exceptions of Battlefield 2 and
>>>>| perhaps World of Warcraft, I simply can't see the advantage in
>>>>| supporting games that choose not to support us. To me, the short
>>>>| answer to this is to support those gaming companies that have worked
>>>>| very hard to make sure that Linux admirers are not being left out in
>>>>| the dark.
>>>> `----
>>
>> The author seems to be under the misconception that games are
>> interchangeable. e.g., whether I use OpenOffice or Microsoft Office, the end
>> result is pretty much the same, therefore anyone who is loves Super Mario
>> Kart is should be perfectly fine with Tux Racer, right? Or people who like
>> Morrowind Oblivion should enjoy a good game of NetHack. Or People who like
>> Warcraft III should settle for Battle for Wesnoth, right?
>
> Generally I find that people who advocate games for Linux generally
> haven't got a clue what they are talking about. They tend to be Linux
> users of many years standing who have zero idea about the new level of
> PC games.
>
> There are 3 major obstacles:
>
> 1) DirectX is the major gaming API at the moment.

Even on PlayThing 2.

Color me surprised.

[deletia]

Your view of the games industry is far too PC centric
to be taken seriously.

Even if we decide to take your "the consoles really aren't
the lion's share of the market" naive outsider view of things, the
IDE still isn't the most of the problem. Even the use of Direct3D
won't be the big buggabo. Real game programers have been abstracting
around that sort of thing for years anyways.

The tricky bit will be programmers that love to use every
Microsoft extension to C++ that they can find.

Show mem the credits I could tell you games that are highly
likely to fall into that problem.

--

The average IT manager is a less effective mentor than a
Spongebob Squarepants cartoon.

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Peter KÃ¶hlmann · External Since: Jun 27, 2005 Posts: 1500

Oliver Wong wrote:

>
< snip >

>> 5. Windows Vista's OpenGL support is essentially crippled, as Microsoft
>> seek to make creation of cross-platform games as difficult as possible.
>
> You've been corrected on this (see
> http://groups.google.ca/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/0646a9c7be7276b9)
> so please stop spreading this lie.
>

Except it isn't a lie
The OpenGL "support" of Vista as shipped *is* crippled
With it you have extremely limited OpenGL, no extensions and performance
like a snail on tranquilizers

You need to install 3rd party ICDs to get any decent OpenGL performance
--
Microsoft software doesn't get released - it escapes, leaving
a trail of destruction behind it.

Roy Schestowitz · External Since: Jun 26, 2005 Posts: 26141

__/ [ Peter Köhlmann ] on Wednesday 04 October 2006 16:41 \__

> Oliver Wong wrote:
>
>>
> < snip >
>
>>> 5. Windows Vista's OpenGL support is essentially crippled, as Microsoft
>>> seek to make creation of cross-platform games as difficult as possible.
>>
>> You've been corrected on this (see
>> http://groups.google.ca/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/0646a9c7be7276b9)
>> so please stop spreading this lie.
>>
>
> Except it isn't a lie
> The OpenGL "support" of Vista as shipped *is* crippled
> With it you have extremely limited OpenGL, no extensions and performance
> like a snail on tranquilizers
>
> You need to install 3rd party ICDs to get any decent OpenGL performance

A bit like being forced to download Netscape using the default browser
(Internet Explorer). Microsoft would say: "look, it's there. It's just a
shame people don't take advantage of it and, therefore, developers will
ignore that other package/technology". How convenient an argument. This is
also debated in the Windows security turf at the moment...

Best wishes,

Roy

--
Roy S. Schestowitz | Viruses to Linux are like cancer to a shark
http://Schestowitz.com | SuSE GNU/Linux ¦ PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
run-level 5 Sep 28 23:16 last=S
http://iuron.com - help build a non-profit search engine

Hadron Quark · External Since: Sep 10, 2006 Posts: 1621

Roy Schestowitz <newsgroups.TakeThisOut@schestowitz.com> writes:

> __/ [ Peter Köhlmann ] on Wednesday 04 October 2006 16:41 \__
>
>> Oliver Wong wrote:
>>
>>>
>> < snip >
>>
>>>> 5. Windows Vista's OpenGL support is essentially crippled, as Microsoft
>>>> seek to make creation of cross-platform games as difficult as possible.
>>>
>>> You've been corrected on this (see
>>> http://groups.google.ca/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/0646a9c7be7276b9)
>>> so please stop spreading this lie.
>>>
>>
>> Except it isn't a lie
>> The OpenGL "support" of Vista as shipped *is* crippled
>> With it you have extremely limited OpenGL, no extensions and performance
>> like a snail on tranquilizers
>>
>> You need to install 3rd party ICDs to get any decent OpenGL performance
>
> A bit like being forced to download Netscape using the default browser
> (Internet Explorer). Microsoft would say: "look, it's there. It's just a
> shame people don't take advantage of it and, therefore, developers will
> ignore that other package/technology". How convenient an argument. This is
> also debated in the Windows security turf at the moment...

So what? I had to install "third party nvidia drivers" to get openGL
working on Ubuntu - this after binning my ATI card which simply didnt
work with Linux.

>
> Best wishes,
>
> Roy

--
`When you say "I wrote a program that crashed Windows", people just stare at
you blankly and say "Hey, I got those with the system, *for free*".'
(By Linus Torvalds)

Hadron Quark · External Since: Sep 10, 2006 Posts: 1621

JEDIDIAH <jedi.DeleteThis@nomad.mishnet> writes:

> On 2006-10-04, Hadron Quark <qadronhuark.DeleteThis@geemail.com> wrote:
>> "Oliver Wong" <owong.DeleteThis@castortech.com> writes:
>>
>>>> Roy Schestowitz <newsgroups.DeleteThis@schestowitz.com> espoused:
>>>>> Linux Gaming Made Easy
>>>>>
>>>>> ,----[ Quote ]
>>>>>| Going Native. With the possible exceptions of Battlefield 2 and
>>>>>| perhaps World of Warcraft, I simply can't see the advantage in
>>>>>| supporting games that choose not to support us. To me, the short
>>>>>| answer to this is to support those gaming companies that have worked
>>>>>| very hard to make sure that Linux admirers are not being left out in
>>>>>| the dark.
>>>>> `----
>>>
>>> The author seems to be under the misconception that games are
>>> interchangeable. e.g., whether I use OpenOffice or Microsoft Office, the end
>>> result is pretty much the same, therefore anyone who is loves Super Mario
>>> Kart is should be perfectly fine with Tux Racer, right? Or people who like
>>> Morrowind Oblivion should enjoy a good game of NetHack. Or People who like
>>> Warcraft III should settle for Battle for Wesnoth, right?
>>
>> Generally I find that people who advocate games for Linux generally
>> haven't got a clue what they are talking about. They tend to be Linux
>> users of many years standing who have zero idea about the new level of
>> PC games.
>>
>> There are 3 major obstacles:
>>
>> 1) DirectX is the major gaming API at the moment.
>
> Even on PlayThing 2.
>
> Color me surprised.
>
> [deletia]
>
> Your view of the games industry is far too PC centric
> to be taken seriously.

Err, we are here in a PC linux advocacy group.

>
> Even if we decide to take your "the consoles really aren't
> the lion's share of the market" naive outsider view of things, the

Thats not my view. Who on earth said that? But I was referring to PCs
since we are in ..... oh I said that.

> IDE still isn't the most of the problem. Even the use of Direct3D
> won't be the big buggabo. Real game programers have been abstracting
> around that sort of thing for years anyways.

Not anymore they dont : we#re not writing pong in a garage now. Its
teams of up to a hundred guys working on the bigger projects. They want
and need decent development environments.

>
> The tricky bit will be programmers that love to use every
> Microsoft extension to C++ that they can find.

true : but as I said, they can use GCC.

>
> Show mem the credits I could tell you games that are highly
> likely to fall into that problem.

--
"Note that if I can get you to \"su and say\" something just by asking,
you have a very serious security problem on your system and you should
look into it."
(By Paul Vixie, vixie-cron 3.0.1 installation notes)

JEDIDIAH · External Since: Sep 24, 2004 Posts: 1070

On 2006-10-04, Hadron Quark <qadronhuark.RemoveThis@geemail.com> wrote:
> JEDIDIAH <jedi.RemoveThis@nomad.mishnet> writes:
>
>> On 2006-10-04, Hadron Quark <qadronhuark.RemoveThis@geemail.com> wrote:
>>> "Oliver Wong" <owong.RemoveThis@castortech.com> writes:
>>>
>>>>> Roy Schestowitz <newsgroups.RemoveThis@schestowitz.com> espoused:
>>>>>> Linux Gaming Made Easy
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ,----[ Quote ]
>>>>>>| Going Native. With the possible exceptions of Battlefield 2 and
>>>>>>| perhaps World of Warcraft, I simply can't see the advantage in
>>>>>>| supporting games that choose not to support us. To me, the short
>>>>>>| answer to this is to support those gaming companies that have worked
>>>>>>| very hard to make sure that Linux admirers are not being left out in
>>>>>>| the dark.
>>>>>> `----
>>>>
>>>> The author seems to be under the misconception that games are
>>>> interchangeable. e.g., whether I use OpenOffice or Microsoft Office, the end
>>>> result is pretty much the same, therefore anyone who is loves Super Mario
>>>> Kart is should be perfectly fine with Tux Racer, right? Or people who like
>>>> Morrowind Oblivion should enjoy a good game of NetHack. Or People who like
>>>> Warcraft III should settle for Battle for Wesnoth, right?
>>>
>>> Generally I find that people who advocate games for Linux generally
>>> haven't got a clue what they are talking about. They tend to be Linux
>>> users of many years standing who have zero idea about the new level of
>>> PC games.
>>>
>>> There are 3 major obstacles:
>>>
>>> 1) DirectX is the major gaming API at the moment.
>>
>> Even on PlayThing 2.
>>
>> Color me surprised.
>>
>> [deletia]
>>
>> Your view of the games industry is far too PC centric
>> to be taken seriously.
>
> Err, we are here in a PC linux advocacy group.

Except it's the GAMES industry we're talking about here.

The same companies that are making PC games are also
making console games and have been doing so for a LONG time.
Infact, this would likely be their initial exposure to Linux,
Free Software and gcc in particular.

A lot of them already using Linux in their backend
infastructure or their game servers.

>
>>
>> Even if we decide to take your "the consoles really aren't
>> the lion's share of the market" naive outsider view of things, the
>
> Thats not my view. Who on earth said that? But I was referring to PCs
> since we are in ..... oh I said that.

...cause you were describing the situation obviously assuming
that everything is PC centric and DirectX-centric ignoring the fact
that the console market is MASSIVE and involves a lot of custmers that
are not running a Microsoft API of any sort.

>
>> IDE still isn't the most of the problem. Even the use of Direct3D
>> won't be the big buggabo. Real game programers have been abstracting
>> around that sort of thing for years anyways.
>
> Not anymore they dont : we#re not writing pong in a garage now. Its

Even the rendering engine for an MMORG is not going to involve
that many guys. The ENTIRE STUDIO isn't going to even have "hundreds of
guys" and this includes the designers, game testers, the receptionists,
the software librarians, the marketing people and the janitors.

> teams of up to a hundred guys working on the bigger projects. They want
> and need decent development environments.
>
>>
>> The tricky bit will be programmers that love to use every
>> Microsoft extension to C++ that they can find.
>
> true : but as I said, they can use GCC.

...at which point all the land mines get here. Now these
are genuine land mines in the sense of that metaphor since people
tend to view C++ as "standard". Whereas the DirectX -> Anything
Else transitions will be obvious hazards.

>
>>
>> Show mem the credits I could tell you games that are highly
>> likely to fall into that problem.
>

--
Linux: because everyone should get to drink the beer of their |||
choice and not merely be limited to pretensious imports or hard cider. / | \

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Oliver Wong · External Since: Apr 27, 2006 Posts: 1398

"Peter Köhlmann" <peter.koehlmann.TakeThisOut@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:eg0kjo$ule$00$1@news.t-online.com...
> Oliver Wong wrote:
>
>>
> < snip >
>
>>> 5. Windows Vista's OpenGL support is essentially crippled, as Microsoft
>>> seek to make creation of cross-platform games as difficult as possible.
>>
>> You've been corrected on this (see
>> http://groups.google.ca/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/0646a9c7be7276b9)
>> so please stop spreading this lie.
>>
>
> Except it isn't a lie
> The OpenGL "support" of Vista as shipped *is* crippled
> With it you have extremely limited OpenGL, no extensions and performance
> like a snail on tranquilizers
>
> You need to install 3rd party ICDs to get any decent OpenGL performance

This is akin to claiming that NVidia support in XP is "crippled". When I
first installed my NVidia card, I got a max resolution of 640x480, at 256
colors and zero 3D acceleration. Then, after a quick download, I'd have the
latest driver, which allowed 1600x1200, 32 bit colours, and enough 3D
acceleration to run Oblivion with every detail setting set to max at 40
frames per second http://images.google.ca/images?q=oblivion

Mark claims that Microsoft is seeking to make the cross-platform games
as difficult as possible. If this is true, the level of OpenGL support in
Vista is actually evidence to the contrary, as they've provided the
architecture to allow these ICDs hook directly into the desktop compositor
so that OpenGL games have all the same advantages that DirectX 10 games have
on Vista (the alternative would have been to "turn off" DirectX before
"turning on" OpenGL, and thus "turning off" Aero before running your game).
They (Microsoft) did not need to go through the effort to support OpenGL,
but they chose to do so anyway.

- Oliver

Hadron Quark · External Since: Sep 10, 2006 Posts: 1621

JEDIDIAH <jedi RemoveThis @nomad.mishnet> writes:

> On 2006-10-04, Hadron Quark <qadronhuark RemoveThis @geemail.com> wrote:
>> JEDIDIAH <jedi RemoveThis @nomad.mishnet> writes:
>>
>>> On 2006-10-04, Hadron Quark <qadronhuark RemoveThis @geemail.com> wrote:
>>>> "Oliver Wong" <owong RemoveThis @castortech.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>>> Roy Schestowitz <newsgroups RemoveThis @schestowitz.com> espoused:
>>>>>>> Linux Gaming Made Easy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ,----[ Quote ]
>>>>>>>| Going Native. With the possible exceptions of Battlefield 2 and
>>>>>>>| perhaps World of Warcraft, I simply can't see the advantage in
>>>>>>>| supporting games that choose not to support us. To me, the short
>>>>>>>| answer to this is to support those gaming companies that have worked
>>>>>>>| very hard to make sure that Linux admirers are not being left out in
>>>>>>>| the dark.
>>>>>>> `----
>>>>>
>>>>> The author seems to be under the misconception that games are
>>>>> interchangeable. e.g., whether I use OpenOffice or Microsoft Office, the end
>>>>> result is pretty much the same, therefore anyone who is loves Super Mario
>>>>> Kart is should be perfectly fine with Tux Racer, right? Or people who like
>>>>> Morrowind Oblivion should enjoy a good game of NetHack. Or People who like
>>>>> Warcraft III should settle for Battle for Wesnoth, right?
>>>>
>>>> Generally I find that people who advocate games for Linux generally
>>>> haven't got a clue what they are talking about. They tend to be Linux
>>>> users of many years standing who have zero idea about the new level of
>>>> PC games.
>>>>
>>>> There are 3 major obstacles:
>>>>
>>>> 1) DirectX is the major gaming API at the moment.
>>>
>>> Even on PlayThing 2.
>>>
>>> Color me surprised.
>>>
>>> [deletia]
>>>
>>> Your view of the games industry is far too PC centric
>>> to be taken seriously.
>>
>> Err, we are here in a PC linux advocacy group.
>
> Except it's the GAMES industry we're talking about here.

Not it isn't. It was talking about games companies who don't support the
Linux PC desktop.

>
> The same companies that are making PC games are also
> making console games and have been doing so for a LONG time.
> Infact, this would likely be their initial exposure to Linux,
> Free Software and gcc in particular.
>
> A lot of them already using Linux in their backend
> infastructure or their game servers.

Yes. I know. This still has nothing to do with PC Gaming front ends.

>
>>
>>>
>>> Even if we decide to take your "the consoles really aren't
>>> the lion's share of the market" naive outsider view of things, the
>>
>> Thats not my view. Who on earth said that? But I was referring to PCs
>> since we are in ..... oh I said that.
>
> ...cause you were describing the situation obviously assuming
> that everything is PC centric and DirectX-centric ignoring the fact
> that the console market is MASSIVE and involves a lot of custmers that
> are not running a Microsoft API of any sort.

Can you read. I was not "ignoring" it. It simply wasnt pertinent to the
issue at hand.

>
>>
>>> IDE still isn't the most of the problem. Even the use of Direct3D
>>> won't be the big buggabo. Real game programers have been abstracting
>>> around that sort of thing for years anyways.
>>
>> Not anymore they dont : we#re not writing pong in a garage now. Its
>
> Even the rendering engine for an MMORG is not going to involve
> that many guys. The ENTIRE STUDIO isn't going to even have "hundreds of
> guys" and this includes the designers, game testers, the receptionists,
> the software librarians, the marketing people and the janitors.

Wrong. There are huge support structures in place. QA alone might be up
to about 20 or 30 guys.

true the core engine programmers would be less.

There would be a good few on designing and implementing the game worlds.

>
>> teams of up to a hundred guys working on the bigger projects. They want
>> and need decent development environments.
>>
>>>
>>> The tricky bit will be programmers that love to use every
>>> Microsoft extension to C++ that they can find.
>>
>> true : but as I said, they can use GCC.
>
> ...at which point all the land mines get here. Now these
> are genuine land mines in the sense of that metaphor since people

I dont understand that metaphor.

> tend to view C++ as "standard". Whereas the DirectX -> Anything
> Else transitions will be obvious hazards.

I'm not sure I follow. Firstly gcc supports C++. The main aim would be
to get the games companies to use openGL APIs - and to get a concensus
on sound. Wrappers can and work - e.g diretcX to openGK compile time
wrappers. And then you have run tim Libraries like wine and cedega. But
CEDEGA is on a hiding to nothing IMO - few will pay a monthly
subscription when they can just boot to windows to play.

>
>>
>>>
>>> Show mem the credits I could tell you games that are highly
>>> likely to fall into that problem.
>>

--
Space is limited.

JEDIDIAH · External Since: Sep 24, 2004 Posts: 1070

On 2006-10-04, Hadron Quark <qadronhuark DeleteThis @geemail.com> wrote:
> JEDIDIAH <jedi DeleteThis @nomad.mishnet> writes:
>
>> On 2006-10-04, Hadron Quark <qadronhuark DeleteThis @geemail.com> wrote:
>>> JEDIDIAH <jedi DeleteThis @nomad.mishnet> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 2006-10-04, Hadron Quark <qadronhuark DeleteThis @geemail.com> wrote:
>>>>> "Oliver Wong" <owong DeleteThis @castortech.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Roy Schestowitz <newsgroups DeleteThis @schestowitz.com> espoused:
>>>>>>>> Linux Gaming Made Easy
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ,----[ Quote ]
>>>>>>>>| Going Native. With the possible exceptions of Battlefield 2 and
>>>>>>>>| perhaps World of Warcraft, I simply can't see the advantage in
>>>>>>>>| supporting games that choose not to support us. To me, the short
>>>>>>>>| answer to this is to support those gaming companies that have worked
>>>>>>>>| very hard to make sure that Linux admirers are not being left out in
>>>>>>>>| the dark.
>>>>>>>> `----
[deletia]
>>> Err, we are here in a PC linux advocacy group.
>>
>> Except it's the GAMES industry we're talking about here.
>
> Not it isn't. It was talking about games companies who don't support the
> Linux PC desktop.

...who are also more than likely supporting Sony & Nintendo.

IOW, they already have "porting" issues to deal with. If they
want their titles to run where the bulk of the market they will
have to deal with an environment that is something more than
just desktop windows.

>
>>
>> The same companies that are making PC games are also
>> making console games and have been doing so for a LONG time.
>> Infact, this would likely be their initial exposure to Linux,
>> Free Software and gcc in particular.
>>
>> A lot of them already using Linux in their backend
>> infastructure or their game servers.
>
> Yes. I know. This still has nothing to do with PC Gaming front ends.

If it doesn't then they are replicating a greate deal of effort.

>>>> Even if we decide to take your "the consoles really aren't
>>>> the lion's share of the market" naive outsider view of things, the
>>>
>>> Thats not my view. Who on earth said that? But I was referring to PCs
>>> since we are in ..... oh I said that.
>>
>> ...cause you were describing the situation obviously assuming
>> that everything is PC centric and DirectX-centric ignoring the fact
>> that the console market is MASSIVE and involves a lot of custmers that
>> are not running a Microsoft API of any sort.
>
> Can you read. I was not "ignoring" it. It simply wasnt pertinent to the
> issue at hand.

You were ignoring it to suit your agenda.

The issue of supporting multiple platforms not based on Windows
already exists for the modern game developer.

>
>>
>>>
>>>> IDE still isn't the most of the problem. Even the use of Direct3D
>>>> won't be the big buggabo. Real game programers have been abstracting
>>>> around that sort of thing for years anyways.
>>>
>>> Not anymore they dont : we#re not writing pong in a garage now. Its
>>
>> Even the rendering engine for an MMORG is not going to involve
>> that many guys. The ENTIRE STUDIO isn't going to even have "hundreds of
>> guys" and this includes the designers, game testers, the receptionists,
>> the software librarians, the marketing people and the janitors.
>
> Wrong. There are huge support structures in place. QA alone might be up
> to about 20 or 30 guys.

That will actually be about the only part of the whole thing
that actually requires a lot of warm bodies. This is primarily due to
lack of automation. The rest will involve single digit groups.

>
> true the core engine programmers would be less.
>
> There would be a good few on designing and implementing the game worlds.

Single digits.

>
>>
>>> teams of up to a hundred guys working on the bigger projects. They want
>>> and need decent development environments.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> The tricky bit will be programmers that love to use every
>>>> Microsoft extension to C++ that they can find.
>>>
>>> true : but as I said, they can use GCC.
>>
>> ...at which point all the land mines get here. Now these
>> are genuine land mines in the sense of that metaphor since people
>
> I dont understand that metaphor.

Then don't comment on something you obviously know nothing
about, not even to the level of good secondhand information.

--

Nothing today, likely nothing since we tamed fire,
is genuinely new: culture, like science and |||
technology grows by accretion, each new creator / | \
building on the works of those that came before.

Judge Alex Kozinski
US Court of Appeals
9th Circuit

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Jerry McBride · External Since: Sep 05, 2004 Posts: 533

Oliver Wong wrote:

>
>> Roy Schestowitz <newsgroups.DeleteThis@schestowitz.com> espoused:
>>> Linux Gaming Made Easy
>>>
>>> ,----[ Quote ]
>>>| Going Native. With the possible exceptions of Battlefield 2 and
>>>| perhaps World of Warcraft, I simply can't see the advantage in
>>>| supporting games that choose not to support us. To me, the short
>>>| answer to this is to support those gaming companies that have worked
>>>| very hard to make sure that Linux admirers are not being left out in
>>>| the dark.
>>> `----
>
> The author seems to be under the misconception that games are
> interchangeable. e.g., whether I use OpenOffice or Microsoft Office, the
> end result is pretty much the same, therefore anyone who is loves Super
> Mario Kart is should be perfectly fine with Tux Racer, right? Or people
> who like Morrowind Oblivion should enjoy a good game of NetHack. Or People
> who like Warcraft III should settle for Battle for Wesnoth, right?
>
> Generally speaking, if a gamer wants to play game Foo, then game Bar,
> which is of the same genre or style, isn't going to cut it. And most
> gamers will buy whatever it is they have to buy in order to get their game
> working, without any thoughts of idealogical principles of FOSS vs CSS or
> Linux vs Windows, etc. Case in point: I didn't buy the XBox360 not because
> I hate Microsoft, but simply because there were no good games for it. But
> now that it's been announced that "Guitar Hero 2" is going to be released
> for the 360, I'm strongly considering getting a 360.
>
> Boycotting games that haven't been released on Linux may be a noble
> act
> and all that, but if the end goal is getting companies to publish more
> games for Linux, I think this strategy is short sighted.

Why? If said game programmer doesn't support my chosen platform... it's
natural to boycott them. Why would I support them, by buying a game that I
cannot play, when other game developers (linux game developers) are
available?

If they don't support Linux, then hey... I won't give them my money. It's
call a free market place economy... the market decides.

--

Jerry McBride

Oliver Wong · External Since: Apr 27, 2006 Posts: 1398

"Jerry McBride" <mcbrides9 RemoveThis @comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1uvnv3x9ij.ln2@supertux.my.domain...
> Oliver Wong wrote:
>> Boycotting games that haven't been released on Linux may be a noble
>> act
>> and all that, but if the end goal is getting companies to publish more
>> games for Linux, I think this strategy is short sighted.
>
> Why? If said game programmer doesn't support my chosen platform... it's
> natural to boycott them. Why would I support them, by buying a game that I
> cannot play, when other game developers (linux game developers) are
> available?
>
> If they don't support Linux, then hey... I won't give them my money. It's
> call a free market place economy... the market decides.

Boycotting only makes sense if it was a product marketted at you that
you were previously buying, and which you will no longer buy to send a
message to the vendors. If all the men in the world (that's like, what, 3
billion people?) decided to boycott tampons, do you think the tampon vendors
would care? The male marketbase for tampons is probably negligeable compared
to the female marketbase. Such a boycott would not affect the bottomline in
any perceivable way, and so business will continue as usual.

I'm not saying you SHOULD go out and buy Windows games, despite the fact
that you can't play them on your Linux system. That's obviously silly as
well. I'm saying if your goal is to get the industry to pay more attention
to Linux games, boycotting Windows games is not the best strategy to do so,
because it doesn't really change anything: Linux users were previously not
buying games (or only doing so negligeably), and now they're officially
announcing that they'll refuse to buy them. This will not affect the bottom
line, and so business will continue as usual.

- Oliver

Hadron Quark · External Since: Sep 10, 2006 Posts: 1621

JEDIDIAH <jedi RemoveThis @nomad.mishnet> writes:

>> There would be a good few on designing and implementing the game worlds.
>
> Single digits.
>
>>
>>>
>>>> teams of up to a hundred guys working on the bigger projects. They want
>>>> and need decent development environments.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The tricky bit will be programmers that love to use every
>>>>> Microsoft extension to C++ that they can find.
>>>>
>>>> true : but as I said, they can use GCC.
>>>
>>> ...at which point all the land mines get here. Now these
>>> are genuine land mines in the sense of that metaphor since people
>>
>> I dont understand that metaphor.
>
> Then don't comment on something you obviously know nothing
> about, not even to the level of good secondhand information.

I saved this thread and meant to come back to it. Just to get the last
word in and to prove, as if it were necessary, that Jebediah knows
diddly squat about SW development, never mind games SW development.

See here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/click_online/6047566.stm

But then, a man who thinks Bubble Bobble or whatever is it is called is
a contemporary game is clearly out of touch.

--
Specifications subject to change without notice.