Why are no Linux netbooks being allowed to be sold in UK?

John Fuhrer · External Since: Nov 03, 2009 Posts: 76

On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 22:48:03 +0000, bbgruff wrote:

> I think though that in 2008 they were caught on the back foot.

Yes they were.

> But if (as I think was the case) there was *only* Linux on offer on the
> originals?

That's correct but initially the market was defined as geeks, techs who
needed mobile devices for diags etc.

They bought them up.

The average Joe market hadn't caught on quite yet.

>> Just like the consumer ignores Linux in general despite it being free and
>> Windows 7 being expensive.
>>
>> You're preaching to the choir BTW because I personally feel Linux is a
>> great OS to have on a netbook.
>> I'm just pointing out that I'm in a minority in that regard.
>
> Yes - and of course it's a minority.
> However, all the indications seem to be that "Linux on the Netbook" sells
> much better than "Linux on the desktop", and by one or two orders of
> magnitude! (Bear in mind that for most Linux desktop users, a Linux
> install is a DIY job)

Linux on a netbook is IMHO an excellent choice.
People use those things for the basics and Linux is fine for stuff like
that.
Techs have a whole collection of tools they can use while on site to help
diagnose client's network or other problems etc.

It's a good application for Linux.

Megabyte · External Since: Jul 05, 2009 Posts: 19

John Fuhrer wrote:
> On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 22:48:03 +0000, bbgruff wrote:
>
>
>> I think though that in 2008 they were caught on the back foot.
>
> Yes they were.
>
>
>
>> But if (as I think was the case) there was *only* Linux on offer on the
>> originals?
>
> That's correct but initially the market was defined as geeks, techs who
> needed mobile devices for diags etc.
>
> They bought them up.
>
> The average Joe market hadn't caught on quite yet.
>
>
>>> Just like the consumer ignores Linux in general despite it being free and
>>> Windows 7 being expensive.
>>>
>>> You're preaching to the choir BTW because I personally feel Linux is a
>>> great OS to have on a netbook.
>>> I'm just pointing out that I'm in a minority in that regard.
>> Yes - and of course it's a minority.
>> However, all the indications seem to be that "Linux on the Netbook" sells
>> much better than "Linux on the desktop", and by one or two orders of
>> magnitude! (Bear in mind that for most Linux desktop users, a Linux
>> install is a DIY job)
>
> Linux on a netbook is IMHO an excellent choice.
> People use those things for the basics and Linux is fine for stuff like
> that.
> Techs have a whole collection of tools they can use while on site to help
> diagnose client's network or other problems etc.
>
> It's a good application for Linux.

I would counter that Netbooks are so popular because they provide a
highly compact and portable computing environment. Consumers are using
them as alternatives to carrying larger laptops while still having a
pretty capable computer that is easy to take everywhere.

I think they are being used for beyond the basics unless you consider
the basics to be email, web browsing, calendaring, word processing,
spreadsheets, presentations, itunes (music, video, podcasts), carrying
photos, games, instant messaging, skype, note taking, remote desktop, etc.

I would also argue that many consumers want more powerful Netbooks that
are fully capable while retaining the exceptional battery life and
reasonable price point. This is why you see manufactures trying 10, 11
and 12" screens and faster processors like Core Solo. The distinction
between Netbooks vs Ultra Portable laptops is blurring, take a look at
the specs, price and reviews on Amazon.com at the ACER 1410 as an example.

ARM and Linux based options may grab a good share of the "basics" market
but I bet a large number of consumers will still opt for laptop
performance in a smaller form factor Netbook unit. I doubt that any OS
other than Windows will remain dominant in that space.

bbgruff · External Since: May 26, 2005 Posts: 60

Megabyte wrote:

> bbgruff wrote:
>> Megabyte wrote:
>>
>>> Ever hear of the concept of supply and demand. Do you really think that
>>> if a retailer thought they could make bag loads of money selling Linux
>>> Netbooks that they would allow Microsoft to prevent them from doing so?
>>
>> We are speaking of netbooks here?
>> Let me put a quite hypothetical situation to you (pure conjecture):-
>>
>> 1. A new "class of computer is invented - the Netbook.
>>
>> 2. The idea is that these will be sold very cheaply - almost "impulse
>> buys".
>>
>> 3. There's a problem in the price of the OS.
>> - Vista wont run on them
>> - XP will, but puts a great chunk on the price:-(
>>
>> 4. Manufacturers (Asus in particular) approach MS, and suggest
>> two things:-
>> i) Extend the life of XP for these devices
>> ii) License it much more cheaply
>>
>> 5. MS respons, "NO!". Hobson's choice, mate - there's no
>> alternative - if you want XP, pay our price, and
>> take it or leave it.
>>
>> 6. Asus (and others) market the new devices with Linux!
>>
>> 7. Now MS is caught. These things are actually viable, and
>> are flying off the shelves!
>>
>> 8. However, both sides recognise that even more sales would
>> result if the devices had XP.
>>
>> 9. MS "sees sense". The last thing that MS can allow is for
>> Linux to gain a foothold, even on Netbooks.
>> It licenses XP at $10 a copy, and tells Asus et. al. that
>> even that can be recouped from "sponsored crud-ware".
>>
>> !0. Now (almost) everybody is happy.
>> Linux kept at bay.
>> MS "giving away" an obsolete OS
>> Manufacturers still have a "zero-cost" OS.
>>
>> 11. Now that you can pre-install either OS for zero cost, why develop and
>> support an extra one? You now make no more money doing it. Note though
>> that there is a cost to MS in doing this.
>>
>> All conjecture, but it gives the phrase "Using Linux" a whole new
>> meaning? imo Linux was used by the manufacturers to bring MS to heel.
>> It will be interesting to see what Windows 7 brings to the scenario.
>> Will MS still be prepared to (almost) give it away for Netbooks?
>>
>
> Good hypothetical but here is another scenario:
>
> 1. A new class of computer is invented a Netbook.
>
> 2. Because the goal is low price and size, it is built using a 7"
> screen, tiny keyboard and 4GB storage. The 4 GB constraint and keeping
> memory small leads to the use of Linux.
>
> 3. The little machine takes off and sells like no one expected. The
> market takes note and while consumers like the idea, they find the
> screen too small, the keyboard too small as well as the memory and
> storage too limiting.
>
> 4. MS notes the uptake of Linux on this small platform and says how do
> we compete and get in on the action. Someone comes up with licensing XP
> Home at a lower cost. Vista is now selling on desktop PC's and XP is
> headed towards its end of life.
>
> 5. Manufacturers produce Netbooks with the higher specs (larger
> screens, larger keyboards, more memory and storage) that consumers want
> and continue to offer Linux but now also begin to offer XP Home.
>
> 6. Sales of the XP machines exceed expectations and Linux sales begin
> to dwindle from previous levels when it was the only option available.
> The majority of consumers choose Windows as they want to use iTunes,
> Office, other applications and an operating system they are already
> familiar with. Because Linux is often shipped with simplified
> interfaces the Windows Netbooks seem like they are more capable as
> software can be easily installed or removed just like on their desktop,
> even though the Linux Netbooks are just as capable but require the use
> of command line entries to make them that way.
>
> 7. As consumers are overwhelmingly purchasing XP based Netbooks,
> manufacturers reconsider the viability of continuing to offer Linux and
> some abandon it.
>
> 8. XP Netbook sales continue to skyrocket and manufacturers that
> avoided the simplified interface and instead used Ubuntu (Dell) continue
> to have a reasonable market as competition for Netbooks with Linux has
> decreased and some consumers see a full distro like Ubuntu to be a
> viable alternative to Windows.
>
> 9. Because the uptake of Windows Netbooks has been enormous,
> manufacturers decide to stick with Windows and begin offering some units
> with XP Home, others with Windows 7 Basic and even others with Windows 7
> Home Premium at various price points to feel out where the market will go.
>
> 10. Manufacturers will monitor their sales and not rule out a return to
> Linux based operating systems such as Google Chrome, should Windows
> based sales volumes decline or if demand for a new operating system
> becomes viable. MS monitors sales given the introduction of Windows 7
> and will alter their strategy if the current one proves unsuccessful.
> MS will experience some anytime upgrade revenue as some Windows 7 Basic
> purchasers find it too limiting and upgrade to Windows 7 Home Premium on
> their Netbook.

Yep Smile

In fact, I would say not "another scenario" but rather the same, but a
somewhat more detailed one.

If I were to adopt (copy!) yours, there are just two changes that I would
make:-

i) I would stress that (imo) the reason that XP could be incorporated so
cheaply was because the viability of Linux on these machines had been
demonstrated.

ii) That still holds if MS tries to drive up the price of Windows 7 on
these devices - Linux is still there, and the mere implicit threat of its
use could well be enough to keep down the price that MS can charge for the
Netbook version.

John Fuhrer · External Since: Nov 03, 2009 Posts: 76

On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 17:52:22 +0000, Eddie Carter wrote:

> Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:
>> Where does this idea come from? I was in the UK just this summer and I
>> ran into a guy with the exact same ASUS Eee PC, running Linux, as I
>> have.
>>
>
>
> 7 is a nutjob.

Sure is.....

Terry Porter · External Since: Jan 10, 2009 Posts: 131

On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 17:52:22 +0000, Eddie Carter wrote:

> Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:
>> Where does this idea come from? I was in the UK just this summer and I
>> ran into a guy with the exact same ASUS Eee PC, running Linux, as I
>> have.
>>
>>
>
> 7 is a nutjob.

bullshit.

--
This machine running Gnu/Linux Ubuntu 9.10 and posting via Pan.
Get your Free copy NOW! http://www.ubuntu.com/

Megabyte · External Since: Jul 05, 2009 Posts: 19

bbgruff wrote:
> Megabyte wrote:
>
>> bbgruff wrote:
>>> Megabyte wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ever hear of the concept of supply and demand. Do you really think that
>>>> if a retailer thought they could make bag loads of money selling Linux
>>>> Netbooks that they would allow Microsoft to prevent them from doing so?
>>> We are speaking of netbooks here?
>>> Let me put a quite hypothetical situation to you (pure conjecture):-
>>>
>>> 1. A new "class of computer is invented - the Netbook.
>>>
>>> 2. The idea is that these will be sold very cheaply - almost "impulse
>>> buys".
>>>
>>> 3. There's a problem in the price of the OS.
>>> - Vista wont run on them
>>> - XP will, but puts a great chunk on the price:-(
>>>
>>> 4. Manufacturers (Asus in particular) approach MS, and suggest
>>> two things:-
>>> i) Extend the life of XP for these devices
>>> ii) License it much more cheaply
>>>
>>> 5. MS respons, "NO!". Hobson's choice, mate - there's no
>>> alternative - if you want XP, pay our price, and
>>> take it or leave it.
>>>
>>> 6. Asus (and others) market the new devices with Linux!
>>>
>>> 7. Now MS is caught. These things are actually viable, and
>>> are flying off the shelves!
>>>
>>> 8. However, both sides recognise that even more sales would
>>> result if the devices had XP.
>>>
>>> 9. MS "sees sense". The last thing that MS can allow is for
>>> Linux to gain a foothold, even on Netbooks.
>>> It licenses XP at $10 a copy, and tells Asus et. al. that
>>> even that can be recouped from "sponsored crud-ware".
>>>
>>> !0. Now (almost) everybody is happy.
>>> Linux kept at bay.
>>> MS "giving away" an obsolete OS
>>> Manufacturers still have a "zero-cost" OS.
>>>
>>> 11. Now that you can pre-install either OS for zero cost, why develop and
>>> support an extra one? You now make no more money doing it. Note though
>>> that there is a cost to MS in doing this.
>>>
>>> All conjecture, but it gives the phrase "Using Linux" a whole new
>>> meaning? imo Linux was used by the manufacturers to bring MS to heel.
>>> It will be interesting to see what Windows 7 brings to the scenario.
>>> Will MS still be prepared to (almost) give it away for Netbooks?
>>>
>> Good hypothetical but here is another scenario:
>>
>> 1. A new class of computer is invented a Netbook.
>>
>> 2. Because the goal is low price and size, it is built using a 7"
>> screen, tiny keyboard and 4GB storage. The 4 GB constraint and keeping
>> memory small leads to the use of Linux.
>>
>> 3. The little machine takes off and sells like no one expected. The
>> market takes note and while consumers like the idea, they find the
>> screen too small, the keyboard too small as well as the memory and
>> storage too limiting.
>>
>> 4. MS notes the uptake of Linux on this small platform and says how do
>> we compete and get in on the action. Someone comes up with licensing XP
>> Home at a lower cost. Vista is now selling on desktop PC's and XP is
>> headed towards its end of life.
>>
>> 5. Manufacturers produce Netbooks with the higher specs (larger
>> screens, larger keyboards, more memory and storage) that consumers want
>> and continue to offer Linux but now also begin to offer XP Home.
>>
>> 6. Sales of the XP machines exceed expectations and Linux sales begin
>> to dwindle from previous levels when it was the only option available.
>> The majority of consumers choose Windows as they want to use iTunes,
>> Office, other applications and an operating system they are already
>> familiar with. Because Linux is often shipped with simplified
>> interfaces the Windows Netbooks seem like they are more capable as
>> software can be easily installed or removed just like on their desktop,
>> even though the Linux Netbooks are just as capable but require the use
>> of command line entries to make them that way.
>>
>> 7. As consumers are overwhelmingly purchasing XP based Netbooks,
>> manufacturers reconsider the viability of continuing to offer Linux and
>> some abandon it.
>>
>> 8. XP Netbook sales continue to skyrocket and manufacturers that
>> avoided the simplified interface and instead used Ubuntu (Dell) continue
>> to have a reasonable market as competition for Netbooks with Linux has
>> decreased and some consumers see a full distro like Ubuntu to be a
>> viable alternative to Windows.
>>
>> 9. Because the uptake of Windows Netbooks has been enormous,
>> manufacturers decide to stick with Windows and begin offering some units
>> with XP Home, others with Windows 7 Basic and even others with Windows 7
>> Home Premium at various price points to feel out where the market will go.
>>
>> 10. Manufacturers will monitor their sales and not rule out a return to
>> Linux based operating systems such as Google Chrome, should Windows
>> based sales volumes decline or if demand for a new operating system
>> becomes viable. MS monitors sales given the introduction of Windows 7
>> and will alter their strategy if the current one proves unsuccessful.
>> MS will experience some anytime upgrade revenue as some Windows 7 Basic
>> purchasers find it too limiting and upgrade to Windows 7 Home Premium on
>> their Netbook.
>
> Yep Smile

> In fact, I would say not "another scenario" but rather the same, but a
> somewhat more detailed one.
>
> If I were to adopt (copy!) yours, there are just two changes that I would
> make:-
>
> i) I would stress that (imo) the reason that XP could be incorporated so
> cheaply was because the viability of Linux on these machines had been
> demonstrated.
>
> ii) That still holds if MS tries to drive up the price of Windows 7 on
> these devices - Linux is still there, and the mere implicit threat of its
> use could well be enough to keep down the price that MS can charge for the
> Netbook version.
>
>

I was looking at a model of the Acer 1410 on Amazon.com last night, $399
complete with Windows 7 Home Premium. Leads one to think that Windows 7
while more expensive than the estimated $10 charge for XP Home is being
offered to OEMs at deep discounts. I suspect the average consumer is
not going to baulk at paying $40 to $50 more for the operating system
over what XP Home cost and some or all of that extra cost can be hidden
by OEMs though the inevitable drop in hardware costs so prices look
stable and then mean while MS takes in 5 times the revenue they were
under the XP Home licensing scenario.

Terry Porter · External Since: Jan 10, 2009 Posts: 131

On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 19:36:17 -0500, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:

> Terry Porter pulled this Usenet boner:
>
>> On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 17:52:22 +0000, Eddie Carter wrote:
>>
>>> Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:
>>>> Where does this idea come from? I was in the UK just this summer and
>>>> I ran into a guy with the exact same ASUS Eee PC, running Linux, as I
>>>> have.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> 7 is a nutjob.
>>
>> bullshit.
>
> Terry, 7 *is* a nutjob. But he is a funny one. Very good at trolling
> the trolls, although he reduces his effectiveness with too much
> exaggeration.

Nope, sorry, I disagree. I think that 7 tailors his posts depending on
the target audience and troll speak is another language altogether.

Perhaps our version of nutjobs differs ?

My version of nutjobs:-
dfs
hadron
exekiel
flatfish

I've read sane, logical and *highly professional* embedded posts by 7,
and I can tell he knows what he's talking about.

A nutter can't do that.

Caveat: I've been wrong before about people Smile

--
This machine running Gnu/Linux Ubuntu 9.10 and posting via Pan.
Get your Free copy NOW! http://www.ubuntu.com/

Chris Ahlstrom · External Since: Jan 08, 2009 Posts: 484

Terry Porter pulled this Usenet boner:

> On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 17:52:22 +0000, Eddie Carter wrote:
>
>> Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:
>>> Where does this idea come from? I was in the UK just this summer and I
>>> ran into a guy with the exact same ASUS Eee PC, running Linux, as I
>>> have.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> 7 is a nutjob.
>
> bullshit.

Terry, 7 *is* a nutjob. But he is a funny one. Very good at trolling the
trolls, although he reduces his effectiveness with too much exaggeration.

--
He jests at scars who never felt a wound.
-- Shakespeare, "Romeo and Juliet, II. 2"

John Fuhrer · External Since: Nov 03, 2009 Posts: 76

On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 16:01:06 -0600, Terry Porter wrote:

> On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 17:52:22 +0000, Eddie Carter wrote:
>
>> Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:
>>> Where does this idea come from? I was in the UK just this summer and I
>>> ran into a guy with the exact same ASUS Eee PC, running Linux, as I
>>> have.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> 7 is a nutjob.
>
> bullshit.

Classic....

One moron, Terry Porter, defends another one, 7.

Good job Terry!

John Fuhrer · External Since: Nov 03, 2009 Posts: 76

On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 19:06:18 -0600, Terry Porter wrote:

> I've read sane, logical and *highly professional* embedded posts by 7,
> and I can tell he knows what he's talking about.

*You* can tell?

Hahahahahahahahaha!

That's precious coming from a guy who uses telnet to remotely log into his
customers routers etc without their knowledge.

> Caveat: I've been wrong before about people Smile

The understatement of the year.

You've been wrong about *a lot* of things around here Terry Porter.

In fact, it's a rare occurrence when you are actually right about
something.

Chris Ahlstrom · External Since: Jan 08, 2009 Posts: 484

Terry Porter pulled this Usenet boner:

> On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 19:36:17 -0500, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>
>>>> 7 is a nutjob.
>>>
>>> bullshit.
>>
>> Terry, 7 *is* a nutjob. But he is a funny one. Very good at trolling
>> the trolls, although he reduces his effectiveness with too much
>> exaggeration.
>
> Nope, sorry, I disagree. I think that 7 tailors his posts depending on
> the target audience and troll speak is another language altogether.
>
> Perhaps our version of nutjobs differs ?
>
> My version of nutjobs:-
> dfs
> hadron
> exekiel
> flatfish

Oh, they're mad as hatters, and devoted to disruption.

> I've read sane, logical and *highly professional* embedded posts by 7,
> and I can tell he knows what he's talking about.

Oh, I agree. He took my suggestion about extlinux (vice syslinux) and ran
with it, and has posted the instructions here (many times).

> A nutter can't do that.
>
> Caveat: I've been wrong before about people Smile

There's a difference between a nasty nutjob and a happy nutjob.

If you prefer, think of 7 as zany. I certainly get more laughs from his
posts than the nasty nutters.

--
Q: How many Martians does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A: One and a half.

Hadron · External Since: Dec 05, 2006 Posts: 495

Eddie Carter <cartere.DeleteThis@invalid.invalid> writes:

> Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:
>> Where does this idea come from? I was in the UK just this summer and I
>> ran into a guy with the exact same ASUS Eee PC, running Linux, as I
>> have.
>>
>
> 7 is a nutjob.

According to Terry "Telnet" Porter, 7 is a pretty accomplished and
intelligent "advocate" with a deep and singular knowledge of Linux
embedded systems. Admittedly Telnet's evidence for that is based on the
fact that 7 claims Linux ships billions of devices a day. That combined
with the fact that Telnet is wrong in just about every post he makes
suggests that you are right and 7 is simply a lunatic liar.

Terry Porter · External Since: Jan 10, 2009 Posts: 131

On Mon, 09 Nov 2009 06:55:27 -0500, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>
> If you prefer, think of 7 as zany. I certainly get more laughs from his
> posts than the nasty nutters.

Zany is cool Smile

--
This machine running Gnu/Linux Ubuntu 9.10 and posting via Pan.
Get your Free copy NOW! http://www.ubuntu.com/

John Fuhrer · External Since: Nov 03, 2009 Posts: 76

On Mon, 09 Nov 2009 12:52:45 +0100, Hadron wrote:

> Eddie Carter <cartere.DeleteThis@invalid.invalid> writes:
>
>> Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:
>>> Where does this idea come from? I was in the UK just this summer and I
>>> ran into a guy with the exact same ASUS Eee PC, running Linux, as I
>>> have.
>>>
>>
>> 7 is a nutjob.
>
>
> According to Terry "Telnet" Porter, 7 is a pretty accomplished and
> intelligent "advocate" with a deep and singular knowledge of Linux
> embedded systems. Admittedly Telnet's evidence for that is based on the
> fact that 7 claims Linux ships billions of devices a day. That combined
> with the fact that Telnet is wrong in just about every post he makes
> suggests that you are right and 7 is simply a lunatic liar.

Poor Terry...
He's be the guy supporting the army on horseback while the other army was
driving tanks.