Linux + (Telstra) broadband services?

Felix Karpfen · External Since: May 25, 2004 Posts: 38

I have just emerged from a 20-minutes <phone-call|sales-pitch> from
Telstra on the savings achievable by signing up to its broadband
service.

The poor bunny, who was given this job (and the supervisor, whom she
had to consult every few minutes), had not even heard of Linux till I
mentioned it. I therefore thought it worth a posting to this NG to check
on some of her assertions. These include that:

1. Telstra's high speed ADSL is currently available to 98% of Australian
households (I found this difficult to reconcile with the reported ALP
proposal to raid the Superannuation fund in order to give Australian
business the communication network needed to remain competitive);

2. The fact the my current ISP does not offer high-speed ADSL services in
my area does not mean that Telstra cannot offer such services in my
area; and

3. Telstra's high-speed ADSL does not work with Linux.

I would welcome informed comments on these assertions.

Felix Karpfen

--
Felix Karpfen
Public Key 72FDF9DF (DH/DSA)

Roger Brown · External Since: Aug 24, 2006 Posts: 20

On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 08:08:09 +1000
Felix Karpfen <felixk.RemoveThis@webone.com.au> wrote:

> 1. Telstra's high speed ADSL is currently available to 98% of
> Australian households (I found this difficult to reconcile with the
> reported ALP proposal to raid the Superannuation fund in order to
> give Australian business the communication network needed to remain
> competitive);
>

You have to remember that "high speed ADSL" might mean speeds as low as
256kms. - appallingly slow by international standards, On that
definition, the statement may well be true.

> 2. The fact the my current ISP does not offer high-speed ADSL
> services in my area does not mean that Telstra cannot offer such
> services in my area; and

Quite possibly, Telstra have a track record of reporting line quality
as unsuitable for ADSL where a competitor is concerned but then finding
itself able to offer`service to the SAME customer.

> 3. Telstra's high-speed ADSL does not work with Linux.

Well as you say, the salesman hadn't heard of Linux. What was meant is
that Telstra doesn't support it. But most ADSL modems sold these days
actually incorporate a router and are operating system independent.

If you connect via USB you have an issue obtaining the driver necessary
to have the USB port emulate ethernet - much simpler to simply ensure
your PC has a standard ethernet port installed and use that.

In that case. ADSL works with Linux 'out of the box'.

--
Roger Brown
roger2.RemoveThis@rogerbrown.no-ip.org
http://rogerbrown.no-ip.org

You're ugly and your mother dresses you funny.

Stanislaw Flatto · External Since: Apr 21, 2007 Posts: 37

Felix Karpfen wrote:
> I have just emerged from a 20-minutes <phone-call|sales-pitch> from
> Telstra on the savings achievable by signing up to its broadband
> service.

[snip]

> 3. Telstra's high-speed ADSL does not work with Linux.
>
> I would welcome informed comments on these assertions.
>
> Felix Karpfen
>

"Some say what they know, others know what they say"
ADSL and many other information exchange standards comply with CCITT
rules and are NOT relaying on names like Telstra, Linux, Microsoft and
others.
Linux as close relative in family of Unices was born with networking
spoon in his/its mouth and can and does work with all networking
technologies.

HTH

Stanislaw
Slack user from Ulladulla.

Roger Brown · External Since: Aug 24, 2006 Posts: 20

On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 08:47:25 +1000
Roger Brown <roger2 DeleteThis @rogerbrown.no-ip.org> wrote:

> You have to remember that "high speed ADSL" might mean speeds as low
> as 256kms.

Oops - that WOULD be fast!

256kbs

--
Roger Brown
roger2 DeleteThis @rogerbrown.no-ip.org
http://rogerbrown.no-ip.org

I'm going to Boston to see my doctor. He's a very sick man.
-- Fred Allen

Peter D. · External Since: Dec 06, 2006 Posts: 71

Roger Brown wrote:

> On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 08:08:09 +1000
> Felix Karpfen <felixk.RemoveThis@webone.com.au> wrote:
>
>> 1. Telstra's high speed ADSL is currently available to 98% of
>> Australian households (I found this difficult to reconcile with the
>> reported ALP proposal to raid the Superannuation fund in order to
>> give Australian business the communication network needed to remain
>> competitive);
>>
>
> You have to remember that "high speed ADSL" might mean speeds as low as
> 256kms. - appallingly slow by international standards, On that
> definition, the statement may well be true.

Yes, different ideas about what "fast" means. I think that Telstra
mean anything faster than dial up, even ISDN at 128 kb/s.

[snip]
>> 3. Telstra's high-speed ADSL does not work with Linux.
>
> Well as you say, the salesman hadn't heard of Linux. What was meant is
> that Telstra doesn't support it. But most ADSL modems sold these days
> actually incorporate a router and are operating system independent.
>
> If you connect via USB you have an issue obtaining the driver necessary
> to have the USB port emulate ethernet - much simpler to simply ensure
> your PC has a standard ethernet port installed and use that.
>
> In that case. ADSL works with Linux 'out of the box'.

Agreed. Get an approved modem/router or modem/firewall/router
with at least one ethernet connection. Any modem *should*
work with any ISP, but it is not guaranteed.

Some modem/routers run Linux, not that it is at all obvious from
the outside. I doubt that any run Windows, just on the ground of
how much a Microsoft license would add to the cost of the device.

I strongly recommend going to <http://www.whirlpool.net.au/>
(that is NET not COM) before signing up with anyone.

--
sig goes here...
Peter D.

Peter D. · External Since: Dec 06, 2006 Posts: 71

Stanislaw Flatto wrote:

[snip]
> ADSL and many other information exchange standards comply with CCITT
> rules and are NOT relaying on names like Telstra, Linux, Microsoft and
> others.
> Linux as close relative in family of Unices was born with networking
> spoon in his/its mouth and can and does work with all networking
> technologies.

Is it possible that Telstra could, if they wanted to, do something
so horribly non standard that only similarly broken systems could
talk to them? I think one of the cable networks would only work
with a (cable) modem that issued a "heartbeat", that normal modems
did not know about.

--
sig goes here...
Peter D.

David Segall · External Since: Jan 09, 2007 Posts: 7

"Peter D." <psd.TakeThisOut@live.home.invalid> wrote:

>Stanislaw Flatto wrote:
>
>[snip]
>> ADSL and many other information exchange standards comply with CCITT
>> rules and are NOT relaying on names like Telstra, Linux, Microsoft and
>> others.
>> Linux as close relative in family of Unices was born with networking
>> spoon in his/its mouth and can and does work with all networking
>> technologies.
>
>Is it possible that Telstra could, if they wanted to, do something
>so horribly non standard that only similarly broken systems could
>talk to them? I think one of the cable networks would only work
>with a (cable) modem that issued a "heartbeat", that normal modems
>did not know about.
Telstra Cable does require a client to respond to a heartbeat but
clients are available for Linux, Mac OS and Windows and several
routers have it built in.

My D-Link DI-624S wireless router includes a BigPond cable login
client. It also has a client that updates my domain name manager with
any change in my IP address, talks to a couple of disk drives or
printers and can host an HTTP and/or FTP server. Yes, it's a tiny
Linux box but as far as Telstra is concerned it's just a wireless
router.

Russell Thomson · External Since: Dec 13, 2006 Posts: 2

Hi Felix,

On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 08:08:09 +1000, Felix Karpfen <felixk.RemoveThis@webone.com.au>
wrote:

> I have just emerged from a 20-minutes <phone-call|sales-pitch> from
> Telstra on the savings achievable by signing up to its broadband
> service.

> 1. Telstra's high speed ADSL is currently available to 98% of Australian
> households (I found this difficult to reconcile with the reported ALP
> proposal to raid the Superannuation fund in order to give Australian
> business the communication network needed to remain competitive);

Indeed - it's all how the figures work. The bulk of the population is in
large(ish) cities, where ADSL is plentiful, so it's not to hard to get to
the 98% figure. Note as others have said, speeds aren't always fabulous.

> 3. Telstra's high-speed ADSL does not work with Linux.

My ISP (EFTEL) does use the Telstra ADSL network - and I'm using Linux
right now. Their network is not operating system specific (ie any modem
with an ethernet/USB port will work). What IS OS specific is when you ring
Telstra for configuration help/issues - in that case they do not support
Linux systems.

Cheers,
Russell

Felix Karpfen · External Since: May 25, 2004 Posts: 38

On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 08:47:25 +1000, Roger Brown wrote
(<20070425084725.305f41d5@rtb>):

> On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 08:08:09 +1000
> Felix Karpfen <felixk.RemoveThis@webone.com.au> wrote:
>
>> 1. Telstra's high speed ADSL is currently available to 98% of
>> Australian households (I found this difficult to reconcile with the
>> reported ALP proposal to raid the Superannuation fund in order to
>> give Australian business the communication network needed to remain
>> competitive);
>>
>
> You have to remember that "high speed ADSL" might mean speeds as low as
> 256kms. - appallingly slow by international standards, On that
> definition, the statement may well be true.

My current ISP distinguishes between ADSL and ADSL2+ and offers only
ADSL in my area. In my conversations with the Telstra sales-girl, I
did specify that ADSL (256kb/s) was of no interest and was told that
ADSL-2Mb/s was available in my area. It is on the cards that, here too,
she did not know what she was talking about.
>
>> 2. The fact the my current ISP does not offer high-speed ADSL services
>> in my area does not mean that Telstra cannot offer such services in my
>> area; and
>
> Quite possibly, Telstra have a track record of reporting line quality as
> unsuitable for ADSL where a competitor is concerned but then finding
> itself able to offer`service to the SAME customer.

I believe that this may be the missing link. But I remain confused
about the capability of the existing cables to handle high-speed
transmissions. I thought that optical fibres were needed and these are a
future dream.

Felix Karpfen

--
Felix Karpfen
Public Key 72FDF9DF (DH/DSA)

Roger Brown · External Since: Aug 24, 2006 Posts: 20

On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 07:16:17 +1000
Felix Karpfen <felixk.TakeThisOut@webone.com.au> wrote:

> I believe that this may be the missing link. But I remain confused
> about the capability of the existing cables to handle high-speed
> transmissions. I thought that optical fibres were needed and these
> are a future dream.

ADSL can provide up to 8 MB/sec - Telstra has been artificially
throttling ADSL capacity for years and has only recently enabled this
higher speed.

Whether you will actually get 8Mb/sec will depend on your distance from
the exchange - you may get lower, especially if you are more than 2km
away.

ADSL2 can provide up to 24 MB/sec bit again this is distance dependent
- once you get outside 1km from the exchange your line speeds falls away
- quite quickly once you get outside 2km. Telstra provides this but
currently ONLY to match the competition where another ISP has already
installed its own equipment to provide the same service.

The broadband choice site can tell you what is or is not enabled at
your exchange. See http://bc.whirlpool.net.au/

Do a Google search on 'ADSL speed calculator' or have a browse around
the Whirlpool forums for more information.

--
Roger Brown
roger2.TakeThisOut@rogerbrown.no-ip.org
http://rogerbrown.no-ip.org

There are more things in heaven and earth,
Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
-- Wm. Shakespeare, "Hamlet"

Peter D. · External Since: Dec 06, 2006 Posts: 71

Felix Karpfen wrote:

> On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 08:47:25 +1000, Roger Brown wrote
> (<20070425084725.305f41d5@rtb>):

[snip]
>> Quite possibly, Telstra have a track record of reporting line quality as
>> unsuitable for ADSL where a competitor is concerned but then finding
>> itself able to offer`service to the SAME customer.
>
> I believe that this may be the missing link. But I remain confused
> about the capability of the existing cables to handle high-speed
> transmissions. I thought that optical fibres were needed and these are a
> future dream.

Normally the speed of a wire is limited by the equipment installed
at either end. With ADSL2+, ADSL and to a lesser extent dial up,
the quality and length of the wire comes into play. Roughly, the
quality of the wire can be described by its bandwidth length product.

Double the distance from the exchange and you halve the bandwidth
(for a given technology and wire quality).

--
sig goes here...
Peter D.

Stanislaw Flatto · External Since: Apr 21, 2007 Posts: 37

Peter D. wrote:
> Stanislaw Flatto wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>>ADSL and many other information exchange standards comply with CCITT
>>rules and are NOT relaying on names like Telstra, Linux, Microsoft and
>>others.
>>Linux as close relative in family of Unices was born with networking
>>spoon in his/its mouth and can and does work with all networking
>>technologies.
>
>
> Is it possible that Telstra could, if they wanted to, do something
> so horribly non standard that only similarly broken systems could
> talk to them? I think one of the cable networks would only work
> with a (cable) modem that issued a "heartbeat", that normal modems
> did not know about.
>
>
I don't know how well you know the markets of telephone related
manufacturers. The realy big ones turn away from non CCITT complaint
hardware as such means that the whole industry knows about it in short
time and to 'repair' your image is a long and costly procedure. And with
the manufacturing non existant in this 'colony' Telstra cannot bribe
anyone for non standard muck ups.
"This is life"

HTH

Stanislaw.

Felix Karpfen · External Since: May 25, 2004 Posts: 38

On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 08:19:37 +1000, Roger Brown wrote
(<20070427081937.2a2170c4@rtb>):

> The broadband choice site can tell you what is or is not enabled at your
> exchange. See http://bc.whirlpool.net.au/

Thank you for pointing me to this site.

It has everything that I wanted to know and has opened unexplored
horizons.

It advised:

- my currently available service is "Metro" (presumably defined
elsewhere); and

- This exchange is scheduled to be enabled for ADSL2+ service by PowerTel
/ iiNet.

I am unclear what "scheduled to be enabled" means. But, for what it is
worth, my current ISP is "iinet". And its charges appear to be very
competitive on some of the options currently available.

I am also grateful for the info both in this and in the other postings,
which has made it easier to understand my previously-gathered info.

Felix

--
Felix Karpfen
Public Key 72FDF9DF (DH/DSA)

Peter D. · External Since: Dec 06, 2006 Posts: 71

Stanislaw Flatto wrote:

> Peter D. wrote:
>> Stanislaw Flatto wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>>ADSL and many other information exchange standards comply with CCITT
>>>rules and are NOT relaying on names like Telstra, Linux, Microsoft and
>>>others.
>>>Linux as close relative in family of Unices was born with networking
>>>spoon in his/its mouth and can and does work with all networking
>>>technologies.
>>
>>
>> Is it possible that Telstra could, if they wanted to, do something
>> so horribly non standard that only similarly broken systems could
>> talk to them? I think one of the cable networks would only work
>> with a (cable) modem that issued a "heartbeat", that normal modems
>> did not know about.
>>
>>
> I don't know how well you know the markets of telephone related
> manufacturers. The realy big ones turn away from non CCITT complaint
> hardware as such means that the whole industry knows about it in short
> time and to 'repair' your image is a long and costly procedure. And with
> the manufacturing non existant in this 'colony' Telstra cannot bribe
> anyone for non standard muck ups.
> "This is life"

That sounds promising, but many ISPs seem to have a policy of, "we
promise that it will work with modems X, Y and Z - anything else and
you are on your own". But I suppose that could be an issue of the
support droids having limited scripts to follow.

--
sig goes here...
Peter D.

Zebee Johnstone · External Since: Feb 15, 2006 Posts: 21

In aus.computers.linux on Sun, 29 Apr 2007 15:59:56 +1000
Peter D. <psd.TakeThisOut@live.home.invalid> wrote:
>
> That sounds promising, but many ISPs seem to have a policy of, "we
> promise that it will work with modems X, Y and Z - anything else and
> you are on your own". But I suppose that could be an issue of the
> support droids having limited scripts to follow.

Linux distros and customisation make it hard to support over the
phone. Experienced users OK, the average user not so OK.

I tell them I'm using Mac OSX (which I can as I have a Powerbook) and
that usually passes muster, if it doesn't then I tell them it's W98
and use the elderly Acer laptop or XP and use the virtual machine.

Most of the time though, ADSL provider droids expect you to have a
router thingy and the extent of help is "is the sync light on or not"
and "do you have a dial tone on the house line".

Zebee

Roger Brown · External Since: Aug 24, 2006 Posts: 20

On 29 Apr 2007 06:23:26 GMT
Zebee Johnstone <zebeej.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:

> Linux distros and customisation make it hard to support over the
> phone. Experienced users OK, the average user not so OK.

Except that, as you point out later in your post, most users ARE using
a modem/router and the question of OS type is irrelevant, even for the
service desks who have never heard the L word.

--
Roger Brown
roger2.RemoveThis@rogerbrown.no-ip.org
http://rogerbrown.no-ip.org

Don't look now, but there is a multi-legged creature on your shoulder.

Zebee Johnstone · External Since: Feb 15, 2006 Posts: 21

In aus.computers.linux on Sun, 29 Apr 2007 16:43:28 +1000
Roger Brown <roger2.TakeThisOut@rogerbrown.no-ip.org> wrote:
> On 29 Apr 2007 06:23:26 GMT
> Zebee Johnstone <zebeej.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Linux distros and customisation make it hard to support over the
>> phone. Experienced users OK, the average user not so OK.
>
> Except that, as you point out later in your post, most users ARE using
> a modem/router and the question of OS type is irrelevant, even for the
> service desks who have never heard the L word.

True, but that doesn't invalidate why the won't say they support
anything but Windows.

I know people using dumb ADSL modems, so unless a provider refuses to
support same they ahve to say they only support Windows.

Zebee

Stanislaw Flatto · External Since: Apr 21, 2007 Posts: 37

Zebee Johnstone wrote:
> In aus.computers.linux on Sun, 29 Apr 2007 16:43:28 +1000
> Roger Brown <roger2.TakeThisOut@rogerbrown.no-ip.org> wrote:
>
>>On 29 Apr 2007 06:23:26 GMT
>>Zebee Johnstone <zebeej.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> True, but that doesn't invalidate why the won't say they support
> anything but Windows.
>
> I know people using dumb ADSL modems, so unless a provider refuses to
> support same they ahve to say they only support Windows.
>
> Zebee
Vice versa, Windows advertises that it will make any idiot perform
anything on computer and many still believe it.
So if you want to use your own tools, including brain, you are on your own.

Stanislaw

Felix Karpfen · External Since: May 25, 2004 Posts: 38

On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 08:19:37 +1000, Roger Brown wrote
(<20070427081937.2a2170c4@rtb>):

> ADSL2 can provide up to 24 MB/sec bit again this is distance dependent
> - once you get outside 1km from the exchange your line speeds falls away
> - quite quickly once you get outside 2km. Telstra provides this but
> currently ONLY to match the competition where another ISP has already
> installed its own equipment to provide the same service.
>
> The broadband choice site can tell you what is or is not enabled at
> your exchange. See http://bc.whirlpool.net.au/

By following up some info contained in the above reference, I ended up
with the following entry in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TransACT: -

>
,----[ transact_info.txt ]-
| The newer Phase 2 rollout involves TransACT placing its own DSLAM
| equipment within Telstra exchanges and utilising their own fibre-optic
| backhaul to their main data centre in Dickson, ACT. TransACT completed
| their ADSL 2/2+ rollout on 1st March, 2007. The Phase 2 network
| is available to anyone with a Telstra phone line in Canberra and
| Queanbeyan, as long as they are within sufficient distance of their
| telephone exchange - as with any ADSL service.
|
| TransACT operates an open network with **eight companies providing ISP
| services.** These include a mix of large national ISPs and smaller local
| operations. One of the ISPs is jointly owned by TransACT and ActewAGL.
`----

One of the "eight companies" is my current ISP - WebOne. I have
failed to locate any WebOne reference to ADSL 2+ being offered in my area.

I have found a reference to an offered "Fibre/VDSL" service, that claims
an impressive performance and has stunningly low monthly charges. I
assume that this is a different animal which achieves its high speeds by
using optical fibres. It is unclear to me how this can deliver the
claimed speeds if the upstream network lacks the needed ability to deliver
inputs at comparable speeds.

Felix Karpfen

--
Felix Karpfen
Public Key 72FDF9DF (DH/DSA)

Felix Karpfen · External Since: May 25, 2004 Posts: 38

On Wed, 02 May 2007 12:00:35 +1000, Anthony Irwin wrote
(<f18rc3$orl$1@news-01.bur.connect.com.au>):

> Felix Karpfen wrote:
>> I have just emerged from a 20-minutes <phone-call|sales-pitch> from
>> Telstra on the savings achievable by signing up to its broadband
>> service.
>
> I would personally avoid all telecommunications companies for internet
> access. They tend to provide you with really bad deals and if any
> thing goes wrong you are on hold for ages just to speak to someone who
> then does not know anything anyway.
>
Regrettably, this type of technical service is not restricted to
telecommunications companies.

> I would also avoid people like dodo, tpg etc basicly anyone who thinks
> 500mb transfer or less is good for home users.

I had a feeling that such speeds exploit consumer ignorance and do not
justify an upgrade to broadband.

Thank you for the posting that confirmed a hunch.

Felix Karpfen
--
Felix Karpfen
Public Key 72FDF9DF (DH/DSA)