LiDIA's statement of GPL only in mailing list archives

Jordi Gutierrez Hermoso · External Since: Oct 31, 2006 Posts: 46

LiDIA is an excellent C++ library for computational number theory. A
few years ago, it had the best elliptic curve algorithms available
anywhere, but it's since been almost abandoned upstream:

http://www.cdc.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de/TI/LiDIA/

Its authors have already agreed to release it under the GPL:

http://www.cdc.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de/pipermail/lidia/2006-October...1117.ht

However, they haven't actually indicated this in any form in LiDIA's
source tree. When pressed, they responded that the mention of GPL
license in the mailing list should suffice:

http://www.cdc.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de/pipermail/lidia/2007-April/001150.html

Is this good enough for Debian? A mailing list announcement that all
of LiDIA's source tree is available under the GPL?

Thanks,
- Jordi G. H.

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Florian Weimer · External Since: Nov 10, 2004 Posts: 648

* Jordi Gutierrez Hermoso:

> Is this good enough for Debian?

In general, this is sufficient. In this particular case, I doubt that
the persons which have been involved so far are allowed to make such a
decision. It's also unlikely that the "LiDIA Group" is the copyright
owner because it's not a valid legal person. I would expect the
university to be the copyright holder.

However, it's probably in everyone's best interest to ignore such
details and take the offer to relicense the latest release on our own.

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Don Armstrong · External Since: Jan 24, 2005 Posts: 253

On Sun, 08 Jul 2007, Ben Finney wrote:
> An email has been judged sufficient for many Debian packages, if it
> unambiguously specifies all of the above, and is clearly from the
> copyright holder. Copy and paste into the 'debian/copyright' file
> the part of the message that has all that information, along with
> that message's 'date', 'from', 'message-id' fields.

Yeah; bonus points if the message is GPG signed by a key which is in
and multiply connected to strongly connected set.

Don Armstrong

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-- Robert Heinlein _Time Enough For Love_ p244

http://www.donarmstrong.com http://rzlab.ucr.edu

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Ben Finney · External Since: Jun 02, 2006 Posts: 125

"Jordi Gutierrez Hermoso" <jordigh.RemoveThis@gmail.com> writes:

> When pressed, they responded that the mention of GPL license in the
> mailing list should suffice:
>
> http://www.cdc.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de/pipermail/lidia/2007-April/001150.html
>
> Is this good enough for Debian? A mailing list announcement that all
> of LiDIA's source tree is available under the GPL?

There is plenty of precedent for this in existing packages in
Debian. You need some clear statement from the copyright holder,
explicitly granting license to all recipients for that particular
software under the specific license terms.

An email has been judged sufficient for many Debian packages, if it
unambiguously specifies all of the above, and is clearly from the
copyright holder. Copy and paste into the 'debian/copyright' file the
part of the message that has all that information, along with that
message's 'date', 'from', 'message-id' fields.

Better would be to encourage the copyright holder to place such
permission *in* the software, with the copyright statement, so that
it's clear that it refers to that software and is granted to all
recipients.

--
\ "Holy polar ice sheet, Batman!" -- Robin |
`\ |
_o__) |
Ben Finney

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Florian Weimer · External Since: Nov 10, 2004 Posts: 648

* Don Armstrong:

> On Sun, 08 Jul 2007, Ben Finney wrote:
>> An email has been judged sufficient for many Debian packages, if it
>> unambiguously specifies all of the above, and is clearly from the
>> copyright holder. Copy and paste into the 'debian/copyright' file
>> the part of the message that has all that information, along with
>> that message's 'date', 'from', 'message-id' fields.
>
> Yeah; bonus points if the message is GPG signed by a key which is in
> and multiply connected to strongly connected set.

Yeah, as if this made it a particularly authoritative source for any
kind of legal statement. Cool

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Don Armstrong · External Since: Jan 24, 2005 Posts: 253

On Mon, 09 Jul 2007, Florian Weimer wrote:
> * Don Armstrong:
> > On Sun, 08 Jul 2007, Ben Finney wrote:
> >> An email has been judged sufficient for many Debian packages, if it
> >> unambiguously specifies all of the above, and is clearly from the
> >> copyright holder. Copy and paste into the 'debian/copyright' file
> >> the part of the message that has all that information, along with
> >> that message's 'date', 'from', 'message-id' fields.
> >
> > Yeah; bonus points if the message is GPG signed by a key which is in
> > and multiply connected to strongly connected set.
>
> Yeah, as if this made it a particularly authoritative source for any
> kind of legal statement. Cool

Short of having a notarized signed statement, it's the best we can do;
while there are obviously methods of exploiting it, it's clearly
better than just an e-mail. Most importantly, it allows us to have a
reasonable belief that the copyright holder has actually licensed us
to distribute the work.

Don Armstrong

--
Where I sleep at night, is this important compared to what I read
during the day? What do you think defines me? Where I slept or what I
did all day?
-- Thomas Van Orden of Van Orden v. Perry

http://www.donarmstrong.com http://rzlab.ucr.edu

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Florian Weimer · External Since: Nov 10, 2004 Posts: 648

* Don Armstrong:

> On Mon, 09 Jul 2007, Florian Weimer wrote:
>> * Don Armstrong:
>> > On Sun, 08 Jul 2007, Ben Finney wrote:
>> >> An email has been judged sufficient for many Debian packages, if it
>> >> unambiguously specifies all of the above, and is clearly from the
>> >> copyright holder. Copy and paste into the 'debian/copyright' file
>> >> the part of the message that has all that information, along with
>> >> that message's 'date', 'from', 'message-id' fields.
>> >
>> > Yeah; bonus points if the message is GPG signed by a key which is in
>> > and multiply connected to strongly connected set.
>>
>> Yeah, as if this made it a particularly authoritative source for any
>> kind of legal statement. Cool

>
> Short of having a notarized signed statement, it's the best we can do;
> while there are obviously methods of exploiting it, it's clearly
> better than just an e-mail. Most importantly, it allows us to have a
> reasonable belief that the copyright holder has actually licensed us
> to distribute the work.

Huh? Why do you think so?

In most cases, the difficult question is not whether the statement was
made by the purported author, but whether the author is entitled to
make that statement on behalf of the actual copyright owner.

In the present case, it's likely that FH Worms holds the copyright,
not the department (which is not a legal entity in its own right and
cannot own any copyright). And the department (or its chair) cannot
make binding statements on behalf of the university. Perhaps we can
ignore this, but then we must be prepared to deal with a license
revocation.

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Don Armstrong · External Since: Jan 24, 2005 Posts: 253

On Wed, 11 Jul 2007, Florian Weimer wrote:
> * Don Armstrong:
> > On Mon, 09 Jul 2007, Florian Weimer wrote:
> >> * Don Armstrong:
> >> > On Sun, 08 Jul 2007, Ben Finney wrote:
> >> >> An email has been judged sufficient for many Debian packages, if it
> >> >> unambiguously specifies all of the above, and is clearly from the
> >> >> copyright holder. Copy and paste into the 'debian/copyright' file
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >> >> the part of the message that has all that information, along with
> >> >> that message's 'date', 'from', 'message-id' fields.
> >> >
> >> > Yeah; bonus points if the message is GPG signed by a key which is in
> >> > and multiply connected to strongly connected set.
> >>
> >> Yeah, as if this made it a particularly authoritative source for
> >> any kind of legal statement. Cool

> >
> > Short of having a notarized signed statement, it's the best we can
> > do; while there are obviously methods of exploiting it, it's
> > clearly better than just an e-mail. Most importantly, it allows us
> > to have a reasonable belief that the copyright holder has actually
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > licensed us to distribute the work.
>
> Huh? Why do you think so?
>
> In most cases, the difficult question is not whether the statement
> was made by the purported author, but whether the author is entitled
> to make that statement on behalf of the actual copyright owner.

You'll note that in no case did Ben Finney or myself talk about
"author"; we instead use "copyright holder" for precisely this reason.

Whoever the copyright holder is (or their legal representative) needs
to notify the package maintainer or Debian of the license on the code,
ideally in some sort of manner that clearly comes from the copyright
holder.

Don Armstrong

--
One day I put instant coffee in my microwave oven and almost went back
in time.
-- Steven Wright

http://www.donarmstrong.com http://rzlab.ucr.edu

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