Lenovo to supply linux on its laptops

chris · External Since: Feb 08, 2005 Posts: 12

http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/08/06/lenovo_linux/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6933859.stm

Bad news is that we have to wait until 'the end of the year' and it's
supplying Suse.

Ian Rawlings · External Since: Oct 07, 2006 Posts: 238

On 2007-08-07, chris <ithinkiam RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:

> Bad news is that we have to wait until 'the end of the year' and it's
> supplying Suse.

Indeed, and is the hardware supported by proper drivers so you can
install your own distro, or does it only work with binary drivers
supplied with the laptop that will put up a fight if you want to use a
different distro?

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!

Chris · External Since: May 27, 2005 Posts: 473

Ian Rawlings wrote:
> On 2007-08-07, chris <ithinkiam.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Bad news is that we have to wait until 'the end of the year' and it's
>> supplying Suse.
>
> Indeed, and is the hardware supported by proper drivers so you can
> install your own distro, or does it only work with binary drivers
> supplied with the laptop that will put up a fight if you want to use a
> different distro?
>

As IBM/Lenovo have been pretty Linux friendly in the past I would guess
it will work with any distro. Although, like the Dell machines it may be
a stripped down version without added extras such as bluetooth, modem,
media card readers, etc.

Ian Rawlings · External Since: Oct 07, 2006 Posts: 238

On 2007-08-07, Chris <ithinkiam RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:

> As IBM/Lenovo have been pretty Linux friendly in the past I would guess
> it will work with any distro. Although, like the Dell machines it may be
> a stripped down version without added extras such as bluetooth, modem,
> media card readers, etc.

Well, I've got a Z61p and it was a struggle to get some of it working.
I'm using closed source ATI drivers, can't get the modem to work
without paid-for closed-source drivers, the wireless card is dodgy
even with the right drivers from IBM, and the hard disc protection
stuff doesn't seem to work without the right drivers either. It does
do suspend-to-RAM and hibernating though.

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!

Chris · External Since: May 27, 2005 Posts: 473

Ian Rawlings wrote:
> On 2007-08-07, Chris <ithinkiam.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> As IBM/Lenovo have been pretty Linux friendly in the past I would guess
>> it will work with any distro. Although, like the Dell machines it may be
>> a stripped down version without added extras such as bluetooth, modem,
>> media card readers, etc.
>
> Well, I've got a Z61p and it was a struggle to get some of it working.
> I'm using closed source ATI drivers, can't get the modem to work
> without paid-for closed-source drivers, the wireless card is dodgy
> even with the right drivers from IBM, and the hard disc protection
> stuff doesn't seem to work without the right drivers either. It does
> do suspend-to-RAM and hibernating though.

That doesn't sound too great. Although, I think it's too much to ask for
a fully open-source friendly machine these days - esp. while AMD/ATI and
nVidia rule the roost of graphics.

Some more info, though on the release:
http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?newsID=9730

It appears that it will be the T60p which they're already supplying to
volume orders:
http://www.pc.ibm.com/europe/thinkpad/workstation/en/tseries.html
http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?sitestyle=lenov...ndocid=

Although a few bits are unsupported including the wireless WAN!? How is
that possible? It's just a centrino system which should work by default.
These days wireless is an essential item on a laptop.

Also in the article it claims that Dell is extending its Ubuntu machines
to the UK 'now', but aren't on the site yet.

Darren Salt · External Since: Oct 15, 2004 Posts: 352

I demand that Chris may or may not have written...

> Ian Rawlings wrote:
>> On 2007-08-07, Chris <ithinkiam.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> As IBM/Lenovo have been pretty Linux friendly in the past I would guess
>>> it will work with any distro. Although, like the Dell machines it may
>>> be a stripped down version without added extras such as bluetooth,
>>> modem, media card readers, etc.
>> Well, I've got a Z61p and it was a struggle to get some of it working.
>> I'm using closed source ATI drivers, can't get the modem to work without
>> paid-for closed-source drivers, the wireless card is dodgy even with the
>> right drivers from IBM, and the hard disc protection stuff doesn't seem
>> to work without the right drivers either. It does do suspend-to-RAM and
>> hibernating though.

> That doesn't sound too great. Although, I think it's too much to ask for
> a fully open-source friendly machine these days - esp. while AMD/ATI and
> nVidia rule the roost of graphics.

I'd look for one with Intel graphics. (I hear that open-source hardware video
decoding is being worked on for these...)

[snip]
> It appears that it will be the T60p which they're already supplying to
> volume orders:
> http://www.pc.ibm.com/europe/thinkpad/workstation/en/tseries.html
> http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?sitestyle=lenov...ndocid=

> Although a few bits are unsupported including the wireless WAN!?

The documentation which you reference says "Intel 802.11abg" on some models
and "ThinkPad 802.11abg (3945)" on others. This looks like Intel 3945 in both
cases to me, and there is open-source support for this - it's just not yet
part of the kernel source.

[snip]
--
| Darren Salt | linux or ds at | nr. Ashington, | Toon
| RISC OS, Linux | youmustbejoking,demon,co,uk | Northumberland | Army
| + Burn less waste. Use less packaging. Waste less. USE FEWER RESOURCES.

Regardless of how much patience I may have, I'd prefer not to use any of it.

Ben Bacarisse · External Since: Jun 10, 2005 Posts: 90

Darren Salt <news.TakeThisOut@youmustbejoking.demon.cu.invalid> writes:

> I demand that Chris may or may not have written...
>
>> Ian Rawlings wrote:
>>> On 2007-08-07, Chris <ithinkiam.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> As IBM/Lenovo have been pretty Linux friendly in the past I would guess
>>>> it will work with any distro. Although, like the Dell machines it may
>>>> be a stripped down version without added extras such as bluetooth,
>>>> modem, media card readers, etc.
>>> Well, I've got a Z61p and it was a struggle to get some of it working.
>>> I'm using closed source ATI drivers, can't get the modem to work without
>>> paid-for closed-source drivers, the wireless card is dodgy even with the
>>> right drivers from IBM, and the hard disc protection stuff doesn't seem
>>> to work without the right drivers either. It does do suspend-to-RAM and
>>> hibernating though.
>
>> That doesn't sound too great. Although, I think it's too much to ask for
>> a fully open-source friendly machine these days - esp. while AMD/ATI and
>> nVidia rule the roost of graphics.
>
> I'd look for one with Intel graphics. (I hear that open-source hardware video
> decoding is being worked on for these...)
>
> [snip]
>> It appears that it will be the T60p which they're already supplying to
>> volume orders:
>> http://www.pc.ibm.com/europe/thinkpad/workstation/en/tseries.html
>> http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?sitestyle=lenov...ndocid=
>
>> Although a few bits are unsupported including the wireless WAN!?
>
> The documentation which you reference says "Intel 802.11abg" on some models
> and "ThinkPad 802.11abg (3945)" on others. This looks like Intel 3945 in both
> cases to me, and there is open-source support for this - it's just not yet
> part of the kernel source.

The 3945 driver is only part open-source. Like the other Intel IPW
devices there is a binary firmware program that get loaded into the
device. That is fair enough, but the 3945 also needs a binary-only
program running in user space. This would put me off. It is a shame
-- I've had very good experiences with a couple ipw2200 devices -- but
now Intel want me to run a privileged blob of code with no idea what
is in it. Smacks of You-Know-How to me.

--
Ben.

Darren Salt · External Since: Oct 15, 2004 Posts: 352

I demand that Ben Bacarisse may or may not have written...

> Darren Salt <news DeleteThis @youmustbejoking.demon.cu.invalid> writes:
>> I demand that Chris may or may not have written...
[snip]
>>> It appears that it will be the T60p which they're already supplying to
>>> volume orders:
>>> http://www.pc.ibm.com/europe/thinkpad/workstation/en/tseries.html
>>> http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?sitestyle=lenov...ndocid=
>>> Although a few bits are unsupported including the wireless WAN!?

>> The documentation which you reference says "Intel 802.11abg" on some
>> models and "ThinkPad 802.11abg (3945)" on others. This looks like Intel
>> 3945 in both cases to me, and there is open-source support for this -
>> it's just not yet part of the kernel source.

> The 3945 driver is only part open-source. Like the other Intel IPW devices
> there is a binary firmware program that get loaded into the device.

True. This is actually useful...

> That is fair enough, but the 3945 also needs a binary-only program running
> in user space. This would put me off. It is a shame -- I've had very good
> experiences with a couple [of] ipw2200 devices -- but now Intel want me to
> run a privileged blob of code with no idea what is in it. Smacks of
> You-Know-How to me.

That's true of the ipw3945 driver. However, the iwl-3945 driver requires
newer firmware which removes the need for the binary-only userspace daemon.
You can find it in current -mm and in
http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/linville/wireless-2.6.git;a=summary

(I've not tried it recently, so I don't know if it'll work with a config
which works with ipw3945.)

--
| Darren Salt | linux or ds at | nr. Ashington, | Toon
| RISC OS, Linux | youmustbejoking,demon,co,uk | Northumberland | Army
| + Travel less. Share transport more. PRODUCE LESS CARBON DIOXIDE.

Why is it called tourist season if we can't shoot them?

Darren Salt · External Since: Oct 15, 2004 Posts: 352

I demand that I definitely did write...

[snip]
> the iwl-3945 driver requires newer firmware which removes the need for the
> binary-only userspace daemon. You can find it in current -mm and in
> http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/linville/wireless-2.6.git;a=summary

Actually, no, -mm and
http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/linville/wireless-dev.git;a=summary

--
| Darren Salt | linux or ds at | nr. Ashington, | Toon
| RISC OS, Linux | youmustbejoking,demon,co,uk | Northumberland | Army
| + Output less CO2 => avoid massive flooding. TIME IS RUNNING OUT *FAST*.

The man who has never been flogged has never been taught.

Ian Rawlings · External Since: Oct 07, 2006 Posts: 238

On 2007-08-08, Darren Salt <news DeleteThis @youmustbejoking.demon.cu.invalid> wrote:

> Actually, no, -mm and
> http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/linville/wireless-dev.git;a=summary

I'll have to try that, the ipw3945 stuff from IBM starts falling over
when the link starts to do more than send a few packets, it doesn't do
this on all hardware, but certainly does on my Z61p. You get
"firmware error" messages in the dmesg and some updates have been
produced to help on some hardware but not on the z61p. The symptoms
are that the wireless card keeps disassociating with the network,
giving "firmware error" messages, then re-attaching. It does this
every few minutes under medium to heavy network loads.

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!

Ben Bacarisse · External Since: Jun 10, 2005 Posts: 90

Darren Salt <news.RemoveThis@youmustbejoking.demon.cu.invalid> writes:

> I demand that Ben Bacarisse may or may not have written...
>
>> Darren Salt <news.RemoveThis@youmustbejoking.demon.cu.invalid> writes:
>>> I demand that Chris may or may not have written...
> [snip]
>>>> It appears that it will be the T60p which they're already supplying to
>>>> volume orders:
>>>> http://www.pc.ibm.com/europe/thinkpad/workstation/en/tseries.html
>>>> http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?sitestyle=lenov...ndocid=
>>>> Although a few bits are unsupported including the wireless WAN!?
>
>>> The documentation which you reference says "Intel 802.11abg" on some
>>> models and "ThinkPad 802.11abg (3945)" on others. This looks like Intel
>>> 3945 in both cases to me, and there is open-source support for this -
>>> it's just not yet part of the kernel source.
<snip>
>> but the 3945 also needs a binary-only program running
>> in user space. This would put me off. It is a shame -- I've had very good
>> experiences with a couple [of] ipw2200 devices -- but now Intel want me to
>> run a privileged blob of code with no idea what is in it. Smacks of
>> You-Know-How to me.
>
> That's true of the ipw3945 driver. However, the iwl-3945 driver requires
> newer firmware which removes the need for the binary-only userspace daemon.
> You can find it in current -mm and in
> http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/linville/wireless-2.6.git;a=summary
>
> (I've not tried it recently, so I don't know if it'll work with a config
> which works with ipw3945.)

Interesting, thanks you. If it works and gets merged it will win me
back over to the Intel range -- the ipw2200 driver was/is great.

--
Ben.

Darren Salt · External Since: Oct 15, 2004 Posts: 352

I demand that Ben Bacarisse may or may not have written...

> Darren Salt <news DeleteThis @youmustbejoking.demon.cu.invalid> writes:
[snip]
>> the iwl-3945 driver requires newer firmware which removes the need for
>> the binary-only userspace daemon. You can find it in current -mm and in
>> http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/linville/wireless-dev.git;a=summary
>> (I've not tried it recently, so I don't know if it'll work with a config
>> which works with ipw3945.)

> Interesting, thanks you. If it works and gets merged it will win me
> back over to the Intel range -- the ipw2200 driver was/is great.

I've tried it (well, wireless-2.6 with git-wireless.patch from
2.6.23-rc1-mm2) now and it seems to be fine with almost the same
configuration. It doesn't like "wpa_ap_scan 2", and I modified my ipw3945d
startup script such that it requires the presence of /sys/module/ipw3945.

--
| Darren Salt | linux or ds at | nr. Ashington, | Toon
| RISC OS, Linux | youmustbejoking,demon,co,uk | Northumberland | Army
| + Buy less and make it last longer. INDUSTRY CAUSES GLOBAL WARMING.

Stop searching forever. Happiness is just next to you.

Darren Salt · External Since: Oct 15, 2004 Posts: 352

I demand that I definitely did write...

> I demand that Ben Bacarisse may or may not have written...
>> Darren Salt <news.RemoveThis@youmustbejoking.demon.cu.invalid> writes:
> [snip]
>>> the iwl-3945 driver requires newer firmware which removes the need for
>>> the binary-only userspace daemon. You can find it in current -mm and in
>>> http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/linville/wireless-dev.git;a=summary
[snip]
>> Interesting, thanks you. If it works and gets merged it will win me
>> back over to the Intel range -- the ipw2200 driver was/is great.

> I've tried it (well, wireless-2.6 with git-wireless.patch from
> 2.6.23-rc1-mm2) now [...]

.... and anybody who tries it will also need one of the firmware tarballs from
http://www.intellinuxwireless.org/iwlwifi/downloads/. Currently, this means
one of:

http://www.intellinuxwireless.org/iwlwifi/downloads/iwlwifi-3945-ucode...14.1.5.
http://www.intellinuxwireless.org/iwlwifi/downloads/iwlwifi-4965-ucode...44.1.18

--
| Darren Salt | linux or ds at | nr. Ashington, | Toon
| RISC OS, Linux | youmustbejoking,demon,co,uk | Northumberland | Army
| + Use more efficient products. Use less. BE MORE ENERGY EFFICIENT.

If you want to know how old a man is, ask his brother-in-law.