Gergely and Wouter: on the need of becoming a DPL

Raphael Geissert · External Since: Jul 03, 2009 Posts: 144

Hi,

Reading zack's platform, it makes me wonder why would you (Gergely and
Wouter) actually need to be elected as a DPL to do what you mention on your
platforms. Especially Wouter: you even state that you want to do some things
the way zack has been doing them.

So, the questions are:
* Why do you think you need to be elected as a DPL to do what you propose?
* If not elected, would you pursue your goals anyway?
* If zack was re-elected, would you follow his initiative to share DPL
activities with others?

Thanks.

Cheers,
--
Raphael Geissert - Debian Developer
www.debian.org - get.debian.net

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Wouter Verhelst · External Since: Nov 08, 2004 Posts: 653

On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 05:26:55PM -0600, Raphael Geissert wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Reading zack's platform, it makes me wonder why would you (Gergely and
> Wouter) actually need to be elected as a DPL to do what you mention on your
> platforms. Especially Wouter: you even state that you want to do some things
> the way zack has been doing them.

Indeed, because I won't deny that Stefano has been a very good DPL.

But that doesn't mean there aren't things I think could be done
differently. For instance, I think Stefano is focusing a bit too much on
procedural things, rather than on the fact that we're a bunch of people.

> So, the questions are:
> * Why do you think you need to be elected as a DPL to do what you propose?

While I do definitely want to do some things similar to the way
Stefano's been doing them (mostly in the area of communication), there
are some things I would like to see the DPL do differently. I can't very
well do DPL stuff if I'm not the DPL (or, at least, not make sure things
happen differently -- I /could/ help out Stefano, should he get elected,
though I'm not sure I would, because I don't think I can make a
difference as a 'helper').

> * If not elected, would you pursue your goals anyway?

Probably not, because it would be difficult to do that.

> * If zack was re-elected, would you follow his initiative to share DPL
> activities with others?

As above, I don't think I can make much of a difference as a DPL helper.
As the DPL, I would be able to make my own choices and decisions. As a
DPL's helper, I would need to implement someone else's choices, which is
a significant difference.

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Ben Finney · External Since: May 12, 2005 Posts: 94

Raphael Geissert writes:

> * Why do you think you need to be elected as a DPL to do what you
> propose?

Given that one response to this didn't really address the question, let
me try re-stating it:

* What *specific* actions, requiring DPL powers, will you do as DPL? For
each of those specific actions, why do you think they need DPL powers?

--
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Thomas Goirand · External Since: Jul 03, 2010 Posts: 143

On 03/13/2012 12:14 AM, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> there
> are some things I would like to see the DPL do differently

Could you be a bit more explicit? Which things? Note that I have read
your platform, but I still think it needs some clarifications. For
example, you wrote that you think the DPL could do more than just
procedural things. Like what?

Cheers,

Thomas

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Gergely Nagy · External Since: Jan 28, 2011 Posts: 40

Raphael Geissert writes:

> Reading zack's platform, it makes me wonder why would you (Gergely and
> Wouter) actually need to be elected as a DPL to do what you mention on your
> platforms.

Because while Zack's regin as DPL for the past two years have been very
successful, and there would be a lot of things I'd do the same way
(which Wouter even highlighted as being communication), there are others
where our goals for this year differ wildly.

To explain this, I'll answer your questions in reverse order, as I
believe that would be the easiest way to arrive to a conclusion:

> * If zack was re-elected, would you follow his initiative to share DPL
> activities with others?

Yes, I would, to some extent. Sharing the load and building on the
knowledge, skill and enthusiasm of others - or, to put it another way:
standing on the soulder of giants - is a good way to avoid spreading
oneself too thin, and remain effective.

A leader, as the name implies, is there to lead, not do everything by
himself.

> * If not elected, would you pursue your goals anyway?

I would do everything within my power to pursue them. It would become
considerably more difficult, though, but not impossible. If it's not
impossible, it's still worth trying.

If the elected DPL happens to share some of the ideas or goals I set
forth, then I see no problem with working together to achieve both our
goals.

However, with Zack wishing to oversee the completion of projects he
already started (an understandable desire!), and with his wish to train
prospective DPLs and ease future transitions, I doubt he'd have enough
time and energy to follow up on my vision too.

> * Why do you think you need to be elected as a DPL to do what you propose?

Because I have a vision that points further into the future than the
other candidates', I believe. It would be difficult to accomplish what I
hope to do, without having the tools at hand, and those tools happen to
be in the DPL's toolbox: the ability to delegate, to be noticed and
perhaps even listened to, and to stand on a higher pedestal from where
one can get a better overview of the project as a whole.

All of these can be done without being a DPL, but then, even with the
help of the DPL, it would take considerably more time and effort, than
if I didn't have to go through another channel.

Furthermore, there's the question of "why not"? Since both Wouter and
myself intend to continue the great things Zack started and did, what
would we loose if the DPL transition happend now, and not next year?

Zack could still see his pending projects to completion, as he's the one
with the most knowledge regarding them, and as such, can remain in
control of these: that would also help the next DPL tremendously, and
thus, ease the transition.

Which in turn, also helps Zack accomplish his goal of training a new
DPL, and everybody wins! Even better, this way there's already a
successor present, and Zack does not need to worry about making sure
that in 2013 we'll have a smooth transition: we can make that happen
this year, while sacrificing nothing from either of our goals.

I have doubts it'd work as well if it went the other way around.

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Wouter Verhelst · External Since: Nov 08, 2004 Posts: 653

On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 09:14:43AM +1100, Ben Finney wrote:
> Please don't send me personal copies of messages that are also going to
> the mailing list, as I haven't asked for that.

Mail-Followup-To can help you with that, fwiw.

[...]
> > I know that there are a number of things that I want to do differently
> > from how Stefano's been doing them. I want to have a different focus.
> > As DPL, I want to try and motivate people to work on Debian.
>
> Please tell us what *specific* things you want to do differently, and
> why those specific actions need DPL authority.

On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 01:22:45PM +0800, Thomas Goirand wrote:
> On 03/13/2012 12:14 AM, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> > there
> > are some things I would like to see the DPL do differently
>
> Could you be a bit more explicit? Which things? Note that I have read
> your platform, but I still think it needs some clarifications. For
> example, you wrote that you think the DPL could do more than just
> procedural things. Like what?

It's a matter of style. I think Stefano has done a good job in
communication, but has been a bit of a... bureaucrat in other tasks. I'm
not very fond of bureaucracy. It has its place, it's necessary
sometimes, but it's always a necessary evil.

What I want to see in a DPL (and hence, what I will try to do when I am
DPL) is a motivator; someone who will try to find ways to get people
working together more efficiently. The job of the DPL is about people,
not about technology; and certainly not about procedures. Hence, I will
try to be a DPL who will care a bit less about the letter of the
constitution or the letter of the social contract, than about the people
and the job that needs doing.

Can I be more specific than that? Probably, but I'd rather not do that.
Yes, I could start picking up specific things that have happened during
the past two years and start slinging mud about it in Stefano's general
direction, but I don't think that's very helpful. I can tell you that
the difference won't be immense, however; they will be details. But I do
think that change is good; that after two years, the project can use a
different DPL. Keeping the same person in the leadership position for
too long is not a good idea.

I think this thread has started off on the wrong foot a bit. Is there a
"need" for me to be DPL? Not really. There is a need for the project to
have a good DPL, yes, and a *wish* for me to serve in that position. I
think I can do a good job, and I have thought so for quite a while
(otherwise I wouldn't be running three times in six years).

No, I think a better question would have been "do we need another year
with Stefano". It's true that he's done a remarkable job, and that it's
taken us many years to get someone who's done the job so well. In that
context, I do understand the reluctance to choose "the unknown" over
"the known good", which probably led to this question. But I don't think
that reluctance is warranted.

Stefano's best qualities as DPL have been the way in which he's
communicated with the rest of the project. He's also done an excellent
job of documenting how he's done that; this means it should be possible
for the people coming after him to copy his ways of doing things, in an
effort to improve and build upon his accomplishments. I intend to do
just that.

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Ben Finney · External Since: May 12, 2005 Posts: 94

Wouter Verhelst writes:

> I will try to be a DPL who will care a bit less about the letter of
> the constitution or the letter of the social contract, than about the
> people and the job that needs doing.
>
> Can I be more specific than that? Probably, but I'd rather not do
> that.

The above (and the rest of your message) doesn't give any specifics of
what you plan to *do* as DPL, though.

> Yes, I could start picking up specific things that have happened during
> the past two years and start slinging mud about it in Stefano's general
> direction, but I don't think that's very helpful.

Right. No-one has asked for that.

You've been asked several times for the actions you plan to take, and
it's distressing to see you avoid the question like this.

> No, I think a better question would have been "do we need another year
> with Stefano".

Please don't deflect the question to Stefano. Regardless what people may
think of Stefano, this is a question about you as a DPL candidate.

What will you, if elected to DPL, do specifically with that authority?

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Ben Finney

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Wouter Verhelst · External Since: Nov 08, 2004 Posts: 653

On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 07:33:06AM +1100, Ben Finney wrote:
> Wouter Verhelst writes:
>
> > I will try to be a DPL who will care a bit less about the letter of
> > the constitution or the letter of the social contract, than about the
> > people and the job that needs doing.
> >
> > Can I be more specific than that? Probably, but I'd rather not do
> > that.
>
> The above (and the rest of your message) doesn't give any specifics of
> what you plan to *do* as DPL, though.

No, because (as I've said before) there is no detailed plan. In fact, I
don't think you can plan a lot as DPL, since it's a job where the work
is thrown at you, rather than that you need to go look for it.

> > Yes, I could start picking up specific things that have happened during
> > the past two years and start slinging mud about it in Stefano's general
> > direction, but I don't think that's very helpful.
>
> Right. No-one has asked for that.
>
> You've been asked several times for the actions you plan to take, and
> it's distressing to see you avoid the question like this.

I honestly don't see what more I could tell you, without making up
examples. I do *not* want to do that, because that will always be
contrived and missing the point.

I've told you several times now what I plan to do as DPL: I intend to
copy the things from Stefano's way of working that I think make sense
(mostly in how he's done his communication), but I will focus less on
procedures and more on the people that make up the project.

What more do you want? There is nothing more to say than that.

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Wouter Verhelst · External Since: Nov 08, 2004 Posts: 653

On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 04:46:14PM +0000, Neil McGovern wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 05:00:12PM +0100, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> > Also, I think the CoC is wrong in making policy about who to send
> > replies to. Some people actually prefer getting replies, while others
> > don't. Since there's a header that nicely allows you to specify just
> > that, I think a more useful rule in a code of conduct is "use a mailer
> > that respects the Mail-Followup-To: header, or respect it manually".
> > This way, people can express their preference, and there should be no
> > complaints about whether or not replies should be sent.
> >
>
> Is there any other policies that you disagree with,

No.

> and would you be looking to change any of these as DPL?

Not without first trying to achieve consensus.

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Russ Allbery · External Since: Nov 17, 2005 Posts: 1180

Wouter Verhelst writes:

> I honestly don't see what more I could tell you, without making up
> examples. I do *not* want to do that, because that will always be
> contrived and missing the point.

> I've told you several times now what I plan to do as DPL: I intend to
> copy the things from Stefano's way of working that I think make sense
> (mostly in how he's done his communication), but I will focus less on
> procedures and more on the people that make up the project.

> What more do you want? There is nothing more to say than that.

The place where this disconnects for me is that it seems like much of your
platform is based on the idea of DPL as leader. That you feel like the
DPL should be more dynamic and promote a vision. But you don't seem to
have any specific vision, goals, or places where you want to lead, just an
(apparently kind of vague) feeling that the DPL should be more leaderly.

I had this disconnect the last time you ran too. The idea of DPL as
leader was sort of interesting, but there didn't seem to be any meat under
it, which made me unsure that anything would actually come of it if you
were elected.

I'm interested in hearing what people who are running for DPL with a
vision want to do, but I want to know a bit more about what the vision is
in advance. Smile

--
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Ben Finney · External Since: May 12, 2005 Posts: 94

Wouter Verhelst writes:

> On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 07:33:06AM +1100, Ben Finney wrote:
> > Wouter Verhelst writes:
> >
> > > I will try to be a DPL who will care a bit less about the letter
> > > of the constitution or the letter of the social contract, than
> > > about the people and the job that needs doing.
> >
> > The above (and the rest of your message) doesn't give any specifics of
> > what you plan to *do* as DPL, though.
>
> No, because (as I've said before) there is no detailed plan.

As I've said before, "what will you do" doesn't request that you lay out
a plan.

Saying what you will care about doesn't tell us anything about what you
will *do*. Saying what you will focus on doesn't tell us what you will
*do*.

> I honestly don't see what more I could tell you, without making up
> examples. I do *not* want to do that, because that will always be
> contrived and missing the point.

You say that you feel you can do better. That's an entirely subjective
statement, of course. We're asking what you will *do*, so we can better
know what you mean by "do better". In particular, what you will do.

Naturally, that involves speculation about future possibilities. Surely,
though, a DPL candidate can be expected to have some degree of foresight
as to typical *specific* situations and how they would respond
differently from other candidates.

That's what is being requested – in my framing of the question, anyway.

> What more do you want? There is nothing more to say than that.

Perhaps that's the most informative answer. Thank you.

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Ben Finney

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Wouter Verhelst · External Since: Nov 08, 2004 Posts: 653

On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 09:22:48AM +0000, Neil McGovern wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 02:50:59AM +0100, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> > > Is there any other policies that you disagree with,
> >
> > No.
> >
> > > and would you be looking to change any of these as DPL?
> >
> > Not without first trying to achieve consensus.
> >
>
> I'm slightly confused by my being copied in to your reply then - do you
> feel it appropriate to ignore policies you disagree with

One of the reasons I find that policy wrong is because it requires
manual action from me to make sure I actually do follow it -- through
reconfiguring my mail client, remembering to use "list reply" in mutt
rather than "reply all", or by manually removing whoever is in Cc from
the mail.

I've never bothered to search through the mutt manual for the
information I would need to do the first, and the second just isn't in
my fingers. I try to remember to do the third, but I often forget.

In other words, it wasn't on purpose (it never is). Sorry 'bout that.

(FWIW, though this is getting more and more off-topic, another reason
why I think it's a bad policy is because by requesting that people make
their mail clients do something else than the defaults, you make it
harder to respect the wishes of people explicitly asking to be copied on
replies. It wouldn't be the first time that I see a thread on one of our
mailinglists where people explicitly say "please Cc, I'm not
subscribed", only to be removed from Cc two or three mails down the
thread)

> and/or what would you do if you found the rest of the project out of
> step with your view of what the project should be doing?

Probably keep doing what I'm doing now.

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Wouter Verhelst · External Since: Nov 08, 2004 Posts: 653

On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 10:05:06AM +1100, Ben Finney wrote:
> This indicates either that you don't have any concrete, specific ideas
> about what to do differently,

Something like that; I do know what I want to focus on, but I don't have
the details worked out, and so there aren't specific ideas for what I'll
do.

I expect to work out the details as I work myself in as DPL.

> or that you don't intend to discuss those ideas publicly with the
> people deciding whether to vote for you.

Certainly not. I would find that unacceptable for a prospective DPL
myself.

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