GR PROPOSAL : The Debian Infrastructure is owned by the wh..

Sven Luther · External Since: May 27, 2007 Posts: 34

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By this resolution, the Debian Project resolves that :

===== START OF THE GR text =====
- No part of the Debian Infrastructure, is the sole province of a few select
Debian Developpers, but is under the responsability and ownership of the
project as a whole, and thus of each individual Debian Developper.

- The Debian Instrastructure, includes, but is not limited to, the different
Debian owned machines, the autobuilders, the archive, the mailing lists,
the different source repositories, hosted at alioth or somewhere else, the
core debian related projects at alioth or elsewhere, the mailing lists,
the irc channels, the different teams, ...

- As thus, no Debian Developper can be negated access of a ressource of the
Debian Infrastructure. It is acceptable, for security reasons, that not
every Debian Developper has access to some of these ressources, but if he
request such an access, he should obtain it in a timely fashion (no less
than two weeks).
===== END OF THE GR text =====

Sven Luther
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Luk Claes · External Since: May 04, 2005 Posts: 654

Hi Sven

As you are suspended for one year, your proposal is not valid according to [1]
as your key is not in the keyring.

Please stop pestering us with this childish behaviour. It's not because you
make you very difficult to work with and as a result loose some priviliges
that every DD should have access to the whole Debian infrastructure...

Cheers

Luk

[1] http://www.debian.org/vote/howto_proposal

Sven Luther wrote:
> By this resolution, the Debian Project resolves that :
>
> ===== START OF THE GR text =====
> - No part of the Debian Infrastructure, is the sole province of a few select
> Debian Developpers, but is under the responsability and ownership of the
> project as a whole, and thus of each individual Debian Developper.
>
> - The Debian Instrastructure, includes, but is not limited to, the different
> Debian owned machines, the autobuilders, the archive, the mailing lists,
> the different source repositories, hosted at alioth or somewhere else, the
> core debian related projects at alioth or elsewhere, the mailing lists,
> the irc channels, the different teams, ...
>
> - As thus, no Debian Developper can be negated access of a ressource of the
> Debian Infrastructure. It is acceptable, for security reasons, that not
> every Debian Developper has access to some of these ressources, but if he
> request such an access, he should obtain it in a timely fashion (no less
> than two weeks).
> ===== END OF THE GR text =====
>
> Sven Luther

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Sven Luther · External Since: May 27, 2007 Posts: 34

On Sun, May 27, 2007 at 05:57:54PM +0200, Luk Claes wrote:
> Hi Sven
>
> As you are suspended for one year, your proposal is not valid according to [1]
> as your key is not in the keyring.

I don't recognize the suspension as valid, and furthermore, if enough DD
second the GR it is valid.

> Please stop pestering us with this childish behaviour. It's not because you
> make you very difficult to work with and as a result loose some priviliges
> that every DD should have access to the whole Debian infrastructure...

Every DD that wants to work on a given area of debian should be allowed
to do so, why should some be more privileged than others ? We all joined
Debian thinking each DD is equal in right and duties, and that we would
not hide problems, and then we face repeated case of a few select people
having power, and manipulating things in the darkness.

Just look at the arm buildd mess, or any of the numerous case of
power-play over this last year.

Sven LUther

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Luk Claes · External Since: May 04, 2005 Posts: 654

Sven Luther wrote:
> On Sun, May 27, 2007 at 05:57:54PM +0200, Luk Claes wrote:
>> Hi Sven
>>
>> As you are suspended for one year, your proposal is not valid according to [1]
>> as your key is not in the keyring.
>
> I don't recognize the suspension as valid, and furthermore, if enough DD
> second the GR it is valid.

No, it's not as you could have read in the reference I pointed you to.

>> Please stop pestering us with this childish behaviour. It's not because you
>> make you very difficult to work with and as a result loose some priviliges
>> that every DD should have access to the whole Debian infrastructure...
>
> Every DD that wants to work on a given area of debian should be allowed
> to do so, why should some be more privileged than others ? We all joined
> Debian thinking each DD is equal in right and duties, and that we would
> not hide problems, and then we face repeated case of a few select people
> having power, and manipulating things in the darkness.

You don't need alioth access to be able to work on it.

> Just look at the arm buildd mess, or any of the numerous case of
> power-play over this last year.

The arm buildd mess you probably are referring to was not caused by
power-play, but by bad communication in two directions.

Cheers

Luk

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Sven Luther · External Since: Nov 08, 2004 Posts: 305

On Sun, May 27, 2007 at 06:40:31PM +0200, Luk Claes wrote:
> Sven Luther wrote:
> > On Sun, May 27, 2007 at 05:57:54PM +0200, Luk Claes wrote:
> >> Hi Sven
> >>
> >> As you are suspended for one year, your proposal is not valid according to [1]
> >> as your key is not in the keyring.
> >
> > I don't recognize the suspension as valid, and furthermore, if enough DD
> > second the GR it is valid.
>
> No, it's not as you could have read in the reference I pointed you to.

Ok, if you want to go legalese, then the DAMs did not follow their own
procedure, and acted against the expressed wish of the project, as thus,
the removal of my key from the keyring is not warranted, and the act of
only 2 people, one of which spoke to me the day after they sent the
expulsion procedure to me, and chose not to speak with me about this.

The suspension is invalid, and the result of corruption and shady
dealings, so, since the system you speak of is corrupt in the first
place, then it cannot deny me to make a GR.

> >> Please stop pestering us with this childish behaviour. It's not because you
> >> make you very difficult to work with and as a result loose some priviliges
> >> that every DD should have access to the whole Debian infrastructure...
> >
> > Every DD that wants to work on a given area of debian should be allowed
> > to do so, why should some be more privileged than others ? We all joined
> > Debian thinking each DD is equal in right and duties, and that we would
> > not hide problems, and then we face repeated case of a few select people
> > having power, and manipulating things in the darkness.
>
> You don't need alioth access to be able to work on it.

No, but there is no reason i should not have acess. I was admin of it,
and the one who created it in the first place.

> > Just look at the arm buildd mess, or any of the numerous case of
> > power-play over this last year.
>
> The arm buildd mess you probably are referring to was not caused by
> power-play, but by bad communication in two directions.

Ah, right ? And in your revisionist world, how do you justify that
Aurelien Jarno's right to upload packages was removed ?

Saddened,

Sven Luther

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Sven Luther · External Since: May 27, 2007 Posts: 34

On Sun, May 27, 2007 at 10:04:19PM +0200, Bart Martens wrote:
> On Sun, 2007-05-27 at 17:30 +0200, Sven Luther wrote:
> > By this resolution, the Debian Project resolves that :
> >
> > ===== START OF THE GR text =====
> > - No part of the Debian Infrastructure, is the sole province of a few select
> > Debian Developpers, but is under the responsability and ownership of the
> > project as a whole, and thus of each individual Debian Developper.
> >
> > - The Debian Instrastructure, includes, but is not limited to, the different
> > Debian owned machines, the autobuilders, the archive, the mailing lists,
> > the different source repositories, hosted at alioth or somewhere else, the
> > core debian related projects at alioth or elsewhere, the mailing lists,
> > the irc channels, the different teams, ...
> >
> > - As thus, no Debian Developper can be negated access of a ressource of the
> > Debian Infrastructure. It is acceptable, for security reasons, that not
> > every Debian Developper has access to some of these ressources, but if he
> > request such an access, he should obtain it in a timely fashion (no less
> > than two weeks).
> > ===== END OF THE GR text =====
>
> I don't support this GR proposal because I want it to remain possible to
> deny DD's access to some parts of Debian.

Why ? And who will chose what parts of Debian, and who get access or not ?

If there really are critical parts, then they should be especially
named, and a procedure set in place to determine who gets access to it
or not, in order to avoid the situation we have since a few year, where
a handful of DDs have the infrastructure as hostage, and make everything
they want with it, not even speaking about my own case where it was used
as a weapon in a private vendetta.

Even past DPLs where not able to break this power-grab, which is why i
candidated as DPL, and why people decided to resort to mafioso politics
to stop me.

Debian needs more transparency and honour,

Saddened,

Sven Luther

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Wouter Verhelst · External Since: Nov 08, 2004 Posts: 611

On Sun, May 27, 2007 at 06:20:33PM +0200, Sven Luther wrote:
> I don't recognize the suspension as valid,

Too bad, since apparently everyone else does (or at least if they don't,
they aren't saying so)

[...]
> We all joined Debian thinking each DD is equal in right and duties,

No, that's not true. You apparently did, but I sure as hell didn't.
Please don't speak for anyone save yourself.

(now people can go ahead and flame me again for "feeding the troll" as
they did last time, but I don't think it's good to leave inaccuracies
like these standing)

--
Shaw's Principle:
Build a system that even a fool can use, and only a fool will
want to use it.

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Brian May · External Since: Nov 13, 2006 Posts: 102

>>>>> "Sven" == Sven Luther <sven.DeleteThis@powerlinux.fr> writes:

Sven> [...] It is acceptable, for security reasons, that not every
Sven> Debian Developper has access to some of these ressources,
Sven> but if he request such an access, he should obtain it in a
Sven> timely fashion (no less than two weeks).

Did you, perhaps, mean to say "no *more* than two weeks?".

Or maybe I just misread it, sorry if I did.
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Sven Luther · External Since: Nov 08, 2004 Posts: 305

On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 10:25:13AM +1000, Brian May wrote:
> >>>>> "Sven" == Sven Luther <sven.RemoveThis@powerlinux.fr> writes:
>
> Sven> [...] It is acceptable, for security reasons, that not every
> Sven> Debian Developper has access to some of these ressources,
> Sven> but if he request such an access, he should obtain it in a
> Sven> timely fashion (no less than two weeks).
>
> Did you, perhaps, mean to say "no *more* than two weeks?".
>
> Or maybe I just misread it, sorry if I did.

Yes, no more than two weeks,

Friendly,

Sven Luther

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Sven Luther · External Since: May 27, 2007 Posts: 34

On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 01:13:55AM +0200, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> On Sun, May 27, 2007 at 06:20:33PM +0200, Sven Luther wrote:
> > I don't recognize the suspension as valid,
>
> Too bad, since apparently everyone else does (or at least if they don't,
> they aren't saying so)

Well, the DAMs set up a procedure, and they didn't follow it, they made
the expulsion procedure a lynch mob, where the one side who won was the
one able to tell the worse things about the other, independent of it
being right or not. They hide the facts, in order to not make people
notice that it was something done as a mafioso manipulation of the DPL
election, since frans and co didn't want me to participate, and at least
Joerg had a private axe to grind with Anthony Towns.

> [...]
> > We all joined Debian thinking each DD is equal in right and duties,
>
> No, that's not true. You apparently did, but I sure as hell didn't.
> Please don't speak for anyone save yourself.

Yeah, you also believe that it is ok for debian to be unfair, and that i
should be removed just because the other side in this is so vital that
you fear that they will stop working on debian if they don't get their
way.

You told me you won't even try to mediate, because you knew frans would
not hear you or anyone.

Well, i believed that debian should be fair, and i believed that all DDs
are equal, and that if you wanted to participate on something you could,
and i believe many many other DDs believed such, and this is the cause
of the huge level of frustration that has been around lately.

So, i guess that if you are right, then i have been lied to. Who will
give me back my lost time Debian has vampirized out of me after it has
lured me with false promises ?

> (now people can go ahead and flame me again for "feeding the troll" as
> they did last time, but I don't think it's good to leave inaccuracies
> like these standing)

Yeah, it is astunding how much time and energy people can invest in
this, while a bit of good will and a tenth of the time should have
solved this a year ago,

Saddened,

Sven Luther

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Robert Millan · External Since: Jun 17, 2005 Posts: 555

On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 01:13:55AM +0200, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> On Sun, May 27, 2007 at 06:20:33PM +0200, Sven Luther wrote:
> > I don't recognize the suspension as valid,
>
> Too bad, since apparently everyone else does (or at least if they don't,
> they aren't saying so)

Hi Wouter,

I didn't say anything because I don't feel I have enough information to judge
the formal validity of Sven's suspension. This doesn't mean that I agree
with you.

The same may apply to anyone else who is or isn't following the discussion. In
general, please don't interpret silence as implicit agreement.

Thank you.

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Wouter Verhelst · External Since: Feb 12, 2007 Posts: 26

On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 09:02:43AM +0200, Robert Millan wrote:
> In general, please don't interpret silence as implicit agreement.

I'm not doing that. On the contrary.

--
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Build a system that even a fool can use, and only a fool will
want to use it.

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