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Ron
External


Since: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 117



PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 5:01 am    Post subject: Questions for DPL candidates: casting the lead to fathom our course
Archived from groups: linux>debian>vote (more info?)

Hi all,

There are some talking points I'd like to hear the candidates talk
more about before deciding who may have the best chance of acting
in ways that improve our project as a whole, so to set the scene:

Recently there have been a number of discussions on the merits of
raising raising the technical requirements for Developers in the
keyring, vs' lowering or otherwise altering them. Likewise there
have been discussions on the level and manner of social skills
that should be expected, even demanded, from that group.

Neither of these are new topics, though the environment they exist
in and the need to assess them more thoroughly is certainly changing.

If the candidates cast their minds back to the time when most of
them first got involved with the project, you'll probably recall
the process was mostly self selecting then. That is to say, that
if you'd: a) discovered Debian, b) discovered it was interesting
to you, c) been able to do something useful for yourself with it,
d) been able to do something useful to others with it, e) survived
the bugs reported against whatever you did. Then you were pretty
much a shoe-in to be welcomed into the keyring and given upload
privileges. Even if there was no-one living remotely near enough
to you to verify your identity in person.

It seems fairly self evident that this system has produced some
extraordinary results. But its likewise clear that we have
outgrown it as a viable mechanism for expanding our developer base.
You could say that the project has had its growth spurt and reached
puberty. For those not fond of anthropomorphisms, we can use this
definition:

2. (Bot.) The period when a plant first bears flowers.

The result of that, and our growing popularity with eligible users,
is that points a, b and c above are no longer really a measure of
anything except perhaps genuine ignorance to the state of the
industry, and the bar for d has been considerably lowered given
the number of 'loose ends' that any software project accrues, which
don't really require the time of a highly skilled developer, and to
be frank, often have a hard time winning the time of such people.
(to be fair, because its usually already spread thin on 'hard' issues)

Some years back now, the DAM's of the day announced they would be
suspending the processing of NM applicants while we figured out how
to deal with this change to our environment, and likewise to the
type of people presenting themselves as applicants.

Rather than listening to that advice, a number of movements were,
well, put into motion, to instead _accelerate_ the number of new
applicants that the project took in.

Causality is always a tricky thing to put your finger on, but since
that time, it seems fairly clear that we've experienced a rise in
both social troubles, and, more importantly IMO, the number of
technical issues that people have tried to force through social
mechanisms (ie. a majority vote on a GR) rather than by building
consensus on the most technically optimal solution for all
interested parties.

So... with some background now in place, and given that some of
the candidates have proposed in their platforms that we further
accelerate the processing of NM applications to include people
in the keyring, and that some have indicated their main reason
for running is to increase the 'clout' of their own personal
opinion on certain matters they don't feel they can manage
through consensus building between equals, I'd like to hear the
opinions of the candidates on what they think is the best way
for us to manage our future growth in a sustainable way, without
sacrificing our original dedication to technical excellence
and developer freedom above all else.

Now that we have collaborative tools such as Alioth, which
allow any developer to allow anyone they deem fit to have
direct commit access to their work -- and leaves the ultimate
responsibility for what happens there to that developer or
team of developers who make signed uploads to the disto,
do we still have the same pressures on filling the keyring
with as many people as we can, as fast as we can -- or should
inclusion in it be perhaps even more limited to people who
have proven their judgement for what belongs in the archive
at any point in a release cycle and what does not?

How do you think that moulding our membership in this way
might effect our ability to better regulate our release
schedules in the future, given that screwing up something
which holds up a release and understanding what and how
you screwed up is the general prerequisite for more reliably
not doing so in future?

Do you think that increasing the number of people who've
never been through a full release cycle for each new release
and having those people actively uploading while we try to
prepare one will make the job of RM as it currently exists
an increasingly intractable one? Or should more of the
responsibility for determining release worthy-ness be
shifted to the developers sanctioning new uploads?

Should we even freeze admission of new people to the keyring
while a release freeze is in progress, assuming (and this is
just an assumption on my part, I'd be interested in seeing
some serious analysis to back this up before it was acted on)
that they are the most likely to be uploading new packages
with new bugs at a time when that is least desirable.
Do you think that (in a somewhat perverse way) this would
encourage more of the people in the queue at that time to
help accelerate the release? Do you think that would in
turn promote a new era of 'self-selection' from some of
those applicants?

Do you think we should be continually raising the bar of
skill required as the project as a whole refines its best
practices, or should we be lowering it to match the average
level of people now interested in contributing as our mass
market appeal grows?

Lastly, and in the context of all this, how do you see that
the role of DPL must change to keep it relevant to an
increasing body of volunteers that cannot in fact be led by
simple proclamation from the top. We've seen numerous times
now that a DPL (or GR) which insists on something that is not
backed up by consensus only leads to increased divisiveness
in the project and less real work being done by those who's
opinion has been ignored or defiled. How can we keep this
role as one which guides us all through the clear water at
the crucial points of navigation and avoid the politics of
casting some people up on the rocks just to find out where
they are? Especially when the role is mostly symbolic and
its holder is only able to make small course changes before
people start falling overboard en-mass or plotting a course
of mutiny...

Ok, that's more than enough from me (perhaps more than some
even put in their own platform Wink, so it's your turn now...

Impress me Wink

Ron



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Raphael Hertzog
External


Since: May 28, 2005
Posts: 461



PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 8:02 am    Post subject: Re: Questions for DPL candidates: casting the lead to fathom our course [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Sat, 10 Mar 2007, Ron wrote:
> Some years back now, the DAM's of the day announced they would be
> suspending the processing of NM applicants while we figured out how
> to deal with this change to our environment, and likewise to the
> type of people presenting themselves as applicants.
>
> Rather than listening to that advice, a number of movements were,
> well, put into motion, to instead _accelerate_ the number of new
> applicants that the project took in.

I don't know to what movements you're referring exactly. It's at that time
that I proposed the sponsorship mechanism that we still use nowadays. It's
a good way to take the load from DAM. Because the DAM tried to make sure
that you had some skills and competences, but they couldn't simply
continue doing like they were because there were too many candidates and
Debian grow too big for them to know the package that the candidates have
been working on, etc.

And the whole formal NM process got formalized a bit later based on this
new way to check the skills of an applicant. I don't see anything wrong
here.

> Causality is always a tricky thing to put your finger on, but since
> that time, it seems fairly clear that we've experienced a rise in
> both social troubles, and, more importantly IMO, the number of
> technical issues that people have tried to force through social
> mechanisms (ie. a majority vote on a GR) rather than by building
> consensus on the most technically optimal solution for all
> interested parties.

You'll have troubles relating the problems to the growth of number of DD.
We had serious social troubles with DD that were in Debian even before the
NM process got introduced. We had serious troubles with people who are not
even DD.

The increase of troubles is directly related to the growth of the project,
not especially to the growth of number of DD.

There are some discussions on which kind of persons are selected by the
current NM process. I don't have the answer, but I surely believe that's
it not worse than the selection that we had before.

> Now that we have collaborative tools such as Alioth, which
> allow any developer to allow anyone they deem fit to have
> direct commit access to their work -- and leaves the ultimate
> responsibility for what happens there to that developer or
> team of developers who make signed uploads to the disto,
> do we still have the same pressures on filling the keyring
> with as many people as we can, as fast as we can -- or should
> inclusion in it be perhaps even more limited to people who
> have proven their judgement for what belongs in the archive
> at any point in a release cycle and what does not?

Hey, this is a good idea. We should certainly include more questions
related to our release process in the NM process. And maybe we should
require them to accept the duties of working with the release team for any
changes that their packages might require.

But there's no pressure on filling the keyring, I think you're mistaken on
the goals expressed here. I'm certainly interested in expanding our
community, and in recognizing the work of non-packagers as well but that
doesn't mean granting the same rights to everybody.

I'm also interested in lowering the entry barrier to some packagers,
because you definitely don't need to be DD to maintain a few simple
packages. However, since they're not necessarily aware of the bigger
picture, this might mean that they upload to a special repository and that
DD can then approve those packages to go to unstable.

It's difficult to tell if such a scheme is realistic, but then I think
it's worth experimenting at least. There are numerous ways to make it
happen. You can for example authorize the direct inclusion of a new Debian
revision in unstable but require a DD-review for a new upstream version,
or accept new upstream versions during 8 months and then have a freeze on
new upstream version, etc.

> Should we even freeze admission of new people to the keyring
> while a release freeze is in progress, assuming (and this is
> just an assumption on my part, I'd be interested in seeing
> some serious analysis to back this up before it was acted on)
> that they are the most likely to be uploading new packages
> with new bugs at a time when that is least desirable.
> Do you think that (in a somewhat perverse way) this would
> encourage more of the people in the queue at that time to
> help accelerate the release?

No. For the very same reason that forbiding DD to work on new stuff won't
lead them to fix the kernel or d-i.

> Do you think that would in turn promote a new era of 'self-selection'
> from some of those applicants?

No.

> Do you think we should be continually raising the bar of
> skill required as the project as a whole refines its best
> practices, or should we be lowering it to match the average
> level of people now interested in contributing as our mass
> market appeal grows?

I'm for keeping the same level of skills required to contribute
as DD.

> Lastly, and in the context of all this, how do you see that
> the role of DPL must change to keep it relevant to an
> increasing body of volunteers that cannot in fact be led by
> simple proclamation from the top.

My response to this problem is the DPL board. The board I selected shall
represent the diversity of the project and I believe that most of what
will come out of it will be accepted by the project as a whole.

It's the only way to give back some importance to the role of DPL outside
of public representation.

Cheers,
--
Raphaël Hertzog

Premier livre français sur Debian GNU/Linux :
http://www.ouaza.com/livre/admin-debian/


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Wouter Verhelst
External


Since: Nov 08, 2004
Posts: 599



PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 3:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Questions for DPL candidates: casting the lead to fathom our course [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Sat, Mar 10, 2007 at 07:23:06PM +1030, Ron wrote:
[...background snipped...]
> So... with some background now in place, and given that some of the
> candidates have proposed in their platforms that we further accelerate
> the processing of NM applications to include people in the keyring,
> and that some have indicated their main reason for running is to
> increase the 'clout' of their own personal opinion on certain matters
> they don't feel they can manage through consensus building between
> equals,

For the record, I don't feel I am part of this group of "some of the
candidates" you mention here. I do not feel we should accelerate the
processing of NM applicants if that makes the quality of the NM process
go down.

AIUI, part of the reason why it takes so long currently is that the DAM
wants to make sure that the NM isn't going away after being a developer
for a few months. Obviously that doesn't necessarily have to mean that
going through NM has to take 3 years or so, but it does mean that
reducing the whole NM process to a two-month formality isn't possible.

After the DAM has accepted the application, it does indeed take quite a
while before the key gets into the keyring, and it would be nice if that
time could be reduced. This is a technical problem, however, and one
for which Joey Hess recently wrote something that could be a
solution[0].

> I'd like to hear the opinions of the candidates on what they think is
> the best way for us to manage our future growth in a sustainable way,
> without sacrificing our original dedication to technical excellence
> and developer freedom above all else.

I think we're doing this quite well, actually. Do you think I'm missing
something?

> Now that we have collaborative tools such as Alioth, which allow any
> developer to allow anyone they deem fit to have direct commit access
> to their work -- and leaves the ultimate responsibility for what
> happens there to that developer or team of developers who make signed
> uploads to the disto, do we still have the same pressures on filling
> the keyring with as many people as we can, as fast as we can -- or
> should inclusion in it be perhaps even more limited to people who have
> proven their judgement for what belongs in the archive at any point in
> a release cycle and what does not?

Do you mean whether we should ask prospective maintainers to become part
of a package maintenance team first before we allow them to join Debian
as a full developer? Or is it rather that you want them to show _some_
skill as a package maintainer, no matter how?

If the former, then I think this would be too strict.

If the latter, then I should note that this already is the case.
Starting a few months ago (IIRC), NM applicants must have some package
already in the archive, either through sponsorship or through group
maintenance/alioth.

> How do you think that moulding our membership in this way might effect
> our ability to better regulate our release schedules in the future,
> given that screwing up something which holds up a release and
> understanding what and how you screwed up is the general prerequisite
> for more reliably not doing so in future?

So you want maintainers to screw up first before you want to allow them
to become Debian Developers? ;-P

Seriously, I'm not convinced that "I screwed up before, and I know
better now" is a good guarantee for not screwing up. I've been known to
screw up package uploads at inconvenient times, too[1]; we're all human
beings, and mistakes do happen.

In that light, I don't think it's a very good idea to hold people back
for longer than really necessary.

> Do you think that increasing the number of people who've never been
> through a full release cycle for each new release and having those
> people actively uploading while we try to prepare one will make the
> job of RM as it currently exists an increasingly intractable one?

Perhaps; but I'm not convinced that "make NM harder" is the right
solution to that (potential) problem.

> Or should more of the responsibility for determining release
> worthy-ness be shifted to the developers sanctioning new uploads?

Not sure what you mean by that.

> Should we even freeze admission of new people to the keyring while a
> release freeze is in progress, assuming (and this is just an
> assumption on my part, I'd be interested in seeing some serious
> analysis to back this up before it was acted on) that they are the
> most likely to be uploading new packages with new bugs at a time when
> that is least desirable.

No. Certainly not. During a freeze, getting a package out of unstable
requires the ACK of an RM; this is the time when any Debian Developer
can do the least amount of harm.

> Do you think that (in a somewhat perverse way) this would encourage
> more of the people in the queue at that time to help accelerate the
> release?

Eh, probably. But I don't think that'd be worth it.

> Do you think that would in turn promote a new era of 'self-selection'
> from some of those applicants?

Dunno.

> Do you think we should be continually raising the bar of skill
> required as the project as a whole refines its best practices, or
> should we be lowering it to match the average level of people now
> interested in contributing as our mass market appeal grows?

We should certainly not lower the bar. We may want to allow people with
different skillsets than just "I know how to create a package", but that
doesn't mean lowering the bar. I do think it makes sense to raise the
bar from time to time, too; for instance, when I joined up, there was no
alioth, no pbuilder, no piuparts, and so on; but I do ask my NMs
questions about these tools, and expect them to understand them.

There's nothing wrong with that. Debian evolves, and so must its
maintainers and contributors.

> Lastly, and in the context of all this, how do you see that the role
> of DPL must change to keep it relevant to an increasing body of
> volunteers that cannot in fact be led by simple proclamation from the
> top. We've seen numerous times now that a DPL (or GR) which insists
> on something that is not backed up by consensus only leads to
> increased divisiveness in the project and less real work being done by
> those who's opinion has been ignored or defiled.

I agree; and this is part of the reason why I'm standing up to be a DPL.
I do *not* think that a DPL should insist on making a decision if that
decision is not backed up by consensus. A DPL who tries that anyway,
will only create ruptures in our community, which is not for the good of
the project.

> How can we keep this role as one which guides us all through the clear
> water at the crucial points of navigation and avoid the politics of
> casting some people up on the rocks just to find out where they are?
> Especially when the role is mostly symbolic and its holder is only
> able to make small course changes before people start falling
> overboard en-mass or plotting a course of mutiny...

The DPL position is one of moral leadership. While a DPL cannot (in
practice) make hard and fast decisions, the real power of the DPL lies
in the fact that he is a voice that will be listened to.

A DPL should be someone who is able to understand the viewpoint of many
other people without forcing their opinion on something; he should be
able to "feel" the consensus before even discussing it. A DPL should
know when he's made an error, and be able to publically admit that. He
should have an opinion, but should also be able to recognize when his
opinion is a minority view, and act accordingly. Or, in the words of the
constitution:

``The Project Leader should not use the Leadership position to promote
their own personal views'' (§5.1.9)

I'm not saying I have all the above qualities, but I do believe I
possess at least a fair share of them. I'm also quite sure a number of
other candidates do, although I'm not convinced of all of them.

[0] <http://joey.kitenet.net/code/jetring.html>
[1] <http://packages.qa.debian.org/n/nbd/news/20050805T114706Z.html>,
which closed #321280, severity grave

--
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-- #debian-devel, Freenode, 2004-09-22


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Ron
External


Since: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 117



PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Questions for DPL candidates: casting the lead to fathom our course [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Hi Steve,

I'd like to avoid discussing this on -vote, the questions were
primarily to elicit your opinions, and we aren't voting on mine Wink
If there are topics you think should be discussed further, please
feel free to move them to the appropriate forum for the issue.

Since you've turned a couple of the questions back at me though,
I'll try to elaborate a little more on what I was hoping to troll
from _your_ vision of where we are going and how we might get there.
A leader with majority support is not much use to us, but a leader
with a vision we can all see is priceless. I want to know what you
can see, far more than I care about whether you yourself have the
right answer to a particular question.

Seeing the real problem is always far harder than brainstorming for
solutions to it. So personally, I'd always prefer a seer for a
leader than someone with a +12 invincible sword who can make every
answer have the simple solution of "My way". Hence I want to know
who of you sees what before I spend My hard earned vote...

If there are things you think the voters should know, feel free to
send that to -vote, but questions to me, lets take somewhere else.
We can always air them later if a good answer fits in a paragraph Wink


On Thu, Mar 15, 2007 at 11:50:40PM +0000, Steve McIntyre wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 10, 2007 at 07:23:06PM +1030, Ron wrote:
> >Now that we have collaborative tools such as Alioth, which
> >allow any developer to allow anyone they deem fit to have
> >direct commit access to their work -- and leaves the ultimate
> >responsibility for what happens there to that developer or
> >team of developers who make signed uploads to the disto,
> >do we still have the same pressures on filling the keyring
> >with as many people as we can, as fast as we can -- or should
> >inclusion in it be perhaps even more limited to people who
> >have proven their judgement for what belongs in the archive
> >at any point in a release cycle and what does not?
>
> I'm curious as to how you'd propose to evaluate the judgement of those
> people.

That's not the part that is rocket science, and in fact we already
have the mechanisms in place that do this. Ignoring for the moment
translators and the like [1] because only people uploading packages
presently _need_ to be in the keyring, then the question of judgement
really falls to the sponsors of NM packages. I'm personally beginning
to think that good release management skills is an attribute we should
cultivate -- but the question is: what attributes do _you_ think we
need to focus on to grow effectively?

[1] - which I'd love to be able to have update their bits of my packages
without me getting in their way, btw.


At a simple division there are two types of people coming through NM,
people who already have all the skills they need to effectively
distribute what they maintain, and people who want to learn them.
There are other groups, but these cover most who'll actually make it
through.

So our sponsors and mentors, and all the other -ors we have, have
effectively created their own apprenticeship scheme. We now have
the tools for any developer, to let any other developer come and
do useful things under their domain of responsibility. Or come
and learn them if they seem to have an aptitude for the subject.

If you recognise that, then what things are most valuable to the
distro for these people to learn well? Everyone brings their own
unique personal knowledge to the party, but what do we _all_ need
to be good, or better, at for the distro to grow the way you'd like
it to? For releases to go out somewhere near schedule? For each
to be a slicker user experience than the last?

> Team-based maintenance via alioth (or elsewhere) is a growing
> commodity, and that's undoubtedly a good thing.

I'm not convinced that teams are a good way to assess _individual_
judgement. There are plenty of people in the world who will only
remain alive for the coming weeks because there are teams of people
able to provide them with food and shelter and warmth. Take away
the team and they would be in dire straights indeed.

That's not to say teams are a bad thing. They let us do things we
could not do alone, and people can be part of them from the first
day they do something useful, without having to endure an ancillary
process...

But if you are the new chum learning they only tell us you can work
in a team, when what it appears we need to know, is can you produce
releasable software that meets our standards and keep it that way.
If you disagree with that, consider it a question Wink

To release the Worlds Best OS, first it has to release. And that's
not going to get easier as we grow -- and as more and more large
subsystems emerge which each have their own dependency trees.
It's already hard, if its not going to get so much harder as to be
completely intractable, how are we going to get better at it?

> For the more important packages that are likely to hold up a release,
> team maintenance is a great help.

Do you have some numbers on that? Wink I'd be curious to see a
comparison between the states of various team maintained packages,
with the time when they had a single, dedicated, and probably in
their own way insane, maintainer...

I do agree those people are hard to replace with another single
individual when they finally burn out though...

That's something else large organisations tend to do badly at.
If you have ideas on how we can escape than phenomenon, I'd
love to hear them too ...

> I don't think it would be a valid or fair thing to do to keep people
> at that level rather than allowing them to take on their own packages
> as full DDs as well.

I don't think we _can_ properly assess the trust we have in them
until we've given them some. Again if we are just talking about
the keyring though, then assessing their sponsored packages is
perfectly sufficient if we have good criteria to assess them by.

If a package you are responsible for is not suitable to be in
the dist, then you don't need a key in the keyring to be able
to upload it. This bit at least all seems pretty self-evident.

We've seen some questions recently on sponsors and sponsored
packages. Not necessarily in the most tactful tone, but the
process itself I think is a healthy one.

Do you think we could do better at this[2]? If so, how?

[2] - the assessment that is, we'll give the tact a bit more time
to sink in... That seems to be slowly catching on. Wink

> >Do you think we should be continually raising the bar of
> >skill required as the project as a whole refines its best
> >practices, or should we be lowering it to match the average
> >level of people now interested in contributing as our mass
> >market appeal grows?
>
> We should always be keeping or (better) raising our standards,
> striving for "continuous improvement"[1]. But equally we should also
> be better recognising a lot more of the people who help make Debian
> what it is - the translators, documentation authors, admins,
> etc. etc. All these people bring their skills and efforts to the
> party, yet at the moment only those people that upload packages get
> much recognition (be that the magical debian.org address, access to
> -private, voting rights, whatever). How can we fix that? I'd much
> rather we have that *wider* discussion than simply think about the
> standards of package maintainers.

Indeed, I've already traded some views off list with the other
candidates who've responded, on precisely these 'forgotten' people.
We all seem to be in agreement that more can be done (not to at all
discount that much is _being_ done) to improve the interfaces for
people performing specialised tasks.

I don't really have the time to implement the things I'd like to
see improve here, but if anyone wants to know, I'll be more than
happy to tell them a few things that would make things better for
myself and the people in this category who depend on me for
uploading their work...

The DPL candidates seem to be gradually evolving their own scheme
for dividing up the work that each professes an interest in amongst
themselves whoever wins, so I have no problem with leaving it to
you all to decide who will do what about it when Wink I do think
it would be a good project for one of more of you to take on though.

Whether whoever wins is behind it or not ... Wink

> >Lastly, and in the context of all this, how do you see that
> >the role of DPL must change to keep it relevant to an
> >increasing body of volunteers that cannot in fact be led by
> >simple proclamation from the top. We've seen numerous times
> >now that a DPL (or GR) which insists on something that is not
> >backed up by consensus only leads to increased divisiveness
> >in the project and less real work being done by those who's
> >opinion has been ignored or defiled. How can we keep this
> >role as one which guides us all through the clear water at
> >the crucial points of navigation and avoid the politics of
> >casting some people up on the rocks just to find out where
> >they are? Especially when the role is mostly symbolic and
> >its holder is only able to make small course changes before
> >people start falling overboard en-mass or plotting a course
> >of mutiny...
>
> Unfortunately, as Debian has grown we do seem to have reached a point
> where some arguments become self-feeding. There will always be
> disagreements amongst developers - we all tend to have strong
> opinions. Where possible, consensus is wonderful. In cases where it's
> not possible, people who have "lost" the argument eventually have to
> live with that and move on. Pet ideas are all well and good, but (I
> hope!) we're all here to make the best possible free operating system
> and sometimes that means making compromises from our own original
> positions.

I suspect the truth in that hinges on how many people share any
particular 'pet' idea. Any contentious idea that goes to a vote
which can make Q for its opposition, is far from being resolved,
and probably not too far from being voted on again before the next
release is even done.

For things like what our logo is, and who our leader@ is, its not
really all that important so long as neither is particularly
offensive to the people they affect. But for technical issues,
voting doesn't have quite as good a track record of making the
best selection. You could say we've 'lost' the RPM argument.
But I don't think you'll get a lot of support from us for dropping
..deb just yet.

Perhaps sometimes we need to not rush things to a vote to declare
a winner, (or more normally, some losers) but rather all agree that
we don't have consensus and the subject needs to be looked at in more
detail to see what we do and do not agree on about it. It takes much
patience and dedication to be the best at anything. Having only enough
patience to convince half of the people, half of the time, doesn't quite
seem like the breakfast of champions. And voting that someone else
should do something seems somewhat removed from proof by here's the code
to do it.

I have no doubt whatsoever that all of us are here to build the Best OS.
Very few people volunteer to join a group of losers. The real question
is, how many of us actually know how, how many of us are just being
taken along in the current, and how do we improve that particular S/N
ratio over time in our future?

Will smaller working groups like a DPL committee, or the various
other ad-hoc teams that have formed around negotiating tricky
problems, help build the seeds that the rest of us can crystallise
consensus around, more quickly than our traditional all-in method?
Have they already? There are probably a few examples we can take
some good points from ...


FWIW
It seems a bit like an oxymoron to me to put 'best' and 'compromise'
in the same sentence. Compromise is 'etch-ignore'. Best is not
losing anymore. Both have their advantages, and their time and place,
but each seems to be an acknowledgement that you've forsaken the other.
However temporarily.

We mostly seem to be pretty smart people, for some definitions of
smart -- so any time a group of them can form in opposition to some
idea, I always have to stop and ask myself, what do they know that
I don't. The answers can be surprising and enlightening if I'm
prepared to give the question some thought, and the group really is
in the minority.

I'd hate to see that lost to the normalisation of majority rule.
That's a bit like compromising on whether I put my parachute on
before I get out of the plane. There are consequences that cannot
be reversed.

Anyway, we're off into my opinion, and that's my weakness showing
again... this is Big and neither of us will solve it in a few lines
here. If you're really interested in following that one up, let's
take it somewhere more appropriate.

> Using that as a background, I belive the DPL's job within the project
> should therefore be to help establish the compromises where they are
> needed, and to encourage people to have fruitful discussions that
> actually lead somewhere.

What exactly can the DPL do there that they could not do as a similarly
talented person without that hat on? Aside from attempting to play
games with delegate appointments, the constitution would seem to protect
the rest of the developers from having to make any compromise that they
did not personally see fit. So if the DPL role gives neither more power
or more time in the day to resolve these issues, how can they contribute
more than they otherwise would have to any such resolution process?

I think everyone should be doing what you suggest here, and probably
that for every problem, we have a person somewhere who would be the
best placed to fairly arbitrate discussion on it, so what am I missing
that puts a trump card up the DPL's sleeve here?

Cheers,
Ron



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