DDTP: Please remove pl_PL and merge it with pl

Jens Seidel · External Since: Nov 20, 2004 Posts: 280

Hi,

I noticed that both pl and pl_PL are currently supported languages in
DDTP. pl_PL should be dropped and all 9 translations be merged with pl.

Jens

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Yuri Kozlov · External Since: Aug 16, 2006 Posts: 16

2007/7/7, Michael Bramer <grisu.DeleteThis@debian.org>:
> On Sat, Jul 07, 2007 at 04:01:36PM +0200, Jens Seidel wrote:
> > I noticed that both pl and pl_PL are currently supported languages in
> > DDTP. pl_PL should be dropped and all 9 translations be merged with pl.
>
> yes, we have 1-2 of this problems... after the move we should clean up
> this problems...

Please, drop the ru_RU also.
It have only 8 translation and all of these is exists in the ru.

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Wojciech Zareba · External Since: Mar 22, 2007 Posts: 11

Michael Bramer pisze:
> On Thu, Jul 12, 2007 at 07:16:17PM +0200, Michael Bramer wrote:
>> On Wed, Jul 11, 2007 at 09:26:00PM +0400, Yuri Kozlov wrote:
>>> 2007/7/7, Michael Bramer <grisu.DeleteThis@debian.org>:
>>>> On Sat, Jul 07, 2007 at 04:01:36PM +0200, Jens Seidel wrote:
>>>>> I noticed that both pl and pl_PL are currently supported languages in
>>>>> DDTP. pl_PL should be dropped and all 9 translations be merged with pl.
>>>> yes, we have 1-2 of this problems... after the move we should clean up
>>>> this problems...
>>> Please, drop the ru_RU also.
>>> It have only 8 translation and all of these is exists in the ru.
>> done
>
>
> ok, we have now still this problems:
>
> lang eo has 4 active translations from 7 translations;
> lang go has 1 active translations from 1 translations;
>
> are this 'real' languages? Or
>
> lang pl has 274 active translations from 397 translations;
> lang pl_PL has 9 active translations from 9 translations;
>
> I think we should use pl? Can I remove pl_PL?

I think, you can safely remove pl_PL and merge it with pl.

Regards
Wojciech Zareba

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Michael Bramer · External Since: Mar 17, 2006 Posts: 23

On Fri, Jul 13, 2007 at 12:11:01AM +0300, Eddy PetriÈ™or wrote:
> > lang pl has 274 active translations from 397 translations;
> > lang pl_PL has 9 active translations from 9 translations;
> >
> > I think we should use pl? Can I remove pl_PL?
>
> Look at the subject Very Happy

Thanks.... Smile

Gruss
Grisu
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really bad " -- Linus Torvalds

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Ming Hua · External Since: Nov 16, 2006 Posts: 33

On Thu, Jul 12, 2007 at 08:10:19PM +0200, Michael Bramer wrote:
>
> ok, we have now still this problems:

Since there seems to be an effort to clean up language code for DDTP,
may I ask the admins to get rid of zh (Chinese)? It currently has 21
active translations from 22 translations.

Chinese must be separated as (at least) zh_CN and zh_TW, as although
they are the same language, they use different scripts. I have no idea
what script the current zh translations are, is there an easy way to
review them? I'll do that and put them into correct category.

Also please make sure DDTP/DDTSS do not accept ambiguous zh translations
anymore.

Thanks,
Ming
2007.07.14

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Jens Seidel · External Since: Nov 20, 2004 Posts: 280

On Sat, Jul 14, 2007 at 03:01:13AM -0500, Ming Hua wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 12, 2007 at 08:10:19PM +0200, Michael Bramer wrote:
> >
> > ok, we have now still this problems:
>
> Since there seems to be an effort to clean up language code for DDTP,
> may I ask the admins to get rid of zh (Chinese)? It currently has 21
> active translations from 22 translations.

Right, I noticed this too.

> Chinese must be separated as (at least) zh_CN and zh_TW, as although
> they are the same language, they use different scripts. I have no idea
> what script the current zh translations are, is there an easy way to
> review them? I'll do that and put them into correct category.
>
> Also please make sure DDTP/DDTSS do not accept ambiguous zh translations
> anymore.

Can you please check http://ddtp.debian.net/debian/dists/sid/main/i18n/
and merge zh transaltion manually with either zh_CN or zh_TW (via mail
interface), we cannot do this without knowledge of the language and
don't wont to drop all 22 translations.

But are you really sure that it is not possible to convert a common
Chinese translation into zh_CN AND zh_TW? Please note that this is done
by the Debian website, there is only a single translation but multiple
output encodings!?

Could someone please explain this? Why waste time for two
encodings/scripts if one is sufficient?

Jens

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Ming Hua · External Since: Nov 16, 2006 Posts: 33

On Sat, Jul 14, 2007 at 01:54:20PM +0200, Jens Seidel wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 14, 2007 at 03:01:13AM -0500, Ming Hua wrote:
> > Chinese must be separated as (at least) zh_CN and zh_TW, as although
> > they are the same language, they use different scripts. I have no idea
> > what script the current zh translations are, is there an easy way to
> > review them? I'll do that and put them into correct category.
> >
> > Also please make sure DDTP/DDTSS do not accept ambiguous zh translations
> > anymore.
>
> Can you please check http://ddtp.debian.net/debian/dists/sid/main/i18n/
> and merge zh translation manually with either zh_CN or zh_TW (via mail
> interface), we cannot do this without knowledge of the language and
> don't wont to drop all 22 translations.

Of course, I didn't suggest to drop them. I've now downloaded the
Translation-zh file and found out that they are all simplified (zh_CN)
translations, so should be merged into zh_CN. I'll do this via email
interface in the following days (I need to learn using DDTP), and it's
safe to turn off accepting zh translations now.

> But are you really sure that it is not possible to convert a common
> Chinese translation into zh_CN AND zh_TW?

I'm so glad that you brought this up again. I was reading the thread
"Re: DDTP - please activate support for pt" yesterday and found you've
mentioned Chinese translation in that thread. I wanted to reply, only
to realize your mail was in February.

> Please note that this is done
> by the Debian website, there is only a single translation but multiple
> output encodings!?

I know for website translation, zh_CN and zh_TW pages are generated from
a single source file. However, it's not exactly a single translation,
the source wml file supports the grammar "[CN:foo][HKTW:bar]", so that
the generated page will use "foo" for zh_CN html and "bar" for zh_TW
html. It's quite a maintenance hassle.

Also, the difference between scripts is not only encoding (both
zh_CN and zh_TW translations can, and prefer to, use UTF-8 nowadays, at
least in the open source world). Encoding is not even the main part of
the conversion. The website's wml source is usually in zh_CN or zh_TW
depending on the preference of the main translator (as wml doesn't
support UTF-8, IIRC), then the conversion to the other script is done by
a third-party program (iconv is not really good enough for this task).
I think currently the tools in zh-autoconvert package are used. The
result, if not touched up by a translator of the other script (by adding
more [zh:foo][HKTW:bar] alternative tags), will read awkward most of the
time, and sometime even confusing.

So you see, generating both zh_CN and zh_TW translations from a single
source is not really ideal. IMHO the maintenance hassle, as well as
the suboptimal results, is one of the reason that Chinese website
translations have been stagnant these years.

> Could someone please explain this? Why waste time for two
> encodings/scripts if one is sufficient?

So in short, it's not an encoding issue. I only know English and
Chinese, but I suspect the difference is probably on par with nn
(Norwegian Nynorsk) and nb (Norwegian Bokmål). One translation is not
possible. One source is possible, but inconvenient and suboptimal.
Both zh_CN translators and zh_TW ones (though I can't speak for them)
would prefer separate translations.

Hope this makes things a bit more clear.

Ming
2007.07.14

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Jens Seidel · External Since: Nov 20, 2004 Posts: 280

On Sat, Jul 14, 2007 at 08:17:47PM -0500, Ming Hua wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 14, 2007 at 01:54:20PM +0200, Jens Seidel wrote:
> > On Sat, Jul 14, 2007 at 03:01:13AM -0500, Ming Hua wrote:
> > > Chinese must be separated as (at least) zh_CN and zh_TW, as although
>
> Of course, I didn't suggest to drop them. I've now downloaded the
> Translation-zh file and found out that they are all simplified (zh_CN)
> translations, so should be merged into zh_CN. I'll do this via email
> interface in the following days (I need to learn using DDTP), and it's
> safe to turn off accepting zh translations now.

It's not difficult but could nevertheless require a few hours of work:
Obtain the current zh_CN translation via a subject line
GET <package name> zh_CN.UTF-8
Wait for the mail and decide wether the zh_CN or zh translation should
be used (or merge both). Copy the translation into the proper mail
attachment part and send it back to pdesc RemoveThis @ddtp.debian.net. That's all.
(You can send multiple messages back at once, but test with a single one
first.)

> > Please note that this is done
> > by the Debian website, there is only a single translation but multiple
> > output encodings!?
>
> I know for website translation, zh_CN and zh_TW pages are generated from
> a single source file. However, it's not exactly a single translation,
> the source wml file supports the grammar "[CN:foo][HKTW:bar]", so that
> the generated page will use "foo" for zh_CN html and "bar" for zh_TW
> html. It's quite a maintenance hassle.

> So you see, generating both zh_CN and zh_TW translations from a single
> source is not really ideal. IMHO the maintenance hassle, as well as
> the suboptimal results, is one of the reason that Chinese website
> translations have been stagnant these years.

Thanks for the explanation. Nevertheless using an already translated
description into zh_TW as default template for zh_CN would be useful,
right? Same for pt and pt_BR.

Michael, could you implement this? I also suggest to assume that the
user always requests UTF-8 encodings if he didn't explicitely specified
the encoding. So please always send "Description-<lang>.<encoding>:"
messages, where <encoding> defaults to UTF-8. Thanks.

Jens

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Michael Bramer · External Since: Mar 17, 2006 Posts: 23

On Sun, Jul 15, 2007 at 12:24:14PM +0200, Jens Seidel wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 14, 2007 at 08:17:47PM -0500, Ming Hua wrote:
> > On Sat, Jul 14, 2007 at 01:54:20PM +0200, Jens Seidel wrote:
> > > On Sat, Jul 14, 2007 at 03:01:13AM -0500, Ming Hua wrote:
> > > > Chinese must be separated as (at least) zh_CN and zh_TW, as although
> >
> > Of course, I didn't suggest to drop them. I've now downloaded the
> > Translation-zh file and found out that they are all simplified (zh_CN)
> > translations, so should be merged into zh_CN. I'll do this via email
> > interface in the following days (I need to learn using DDTP), and it's
> > safe to turn off accepting zh translations now.
>
> It's not difficult but could nevertheless require a few hours of work:
> Obtain the current zh_CN translation via a subject line
> GET <package name> zh_CN.UTF-8
> Wait for the mail and decide wether the zh_CN or zh translation should
> be used (or merge both). Copy the translation into the proper mail
> attachment part and send it back to pdesc.DeleteThis@ddtp.debian.net. That's all.
> (You can send multiple messages back at once, but test with a single one
> first.)

Yes, you can send a lot of translations in one mail.

> > > Please note that this is done
> > > by the Debian website, there is only a single translation but multiple
> > > output encodings!?
> >
> > I know for website translation, zh_CN and zh_TW pages are generated from
> > a single source file. However, it's not exactly a single translation,
> > the source wml file supports the grammar "[CN:foo][HKTW:bar]", so that
> > the generated page will use "foo" for zh_CN html and "bar" for zh_TW
> > html. It's quite a maintenance hassle.
>
> > So you see, generating both zh_CN and zh_TW translations from a single
> > source is not really ideal. IMHO the maintenance hassle, as well as
> > the suboptimal results, is one of the reason that Chinese website
> > translations have been stagnant these years.
>
> Thanks for the explanation. Nevertheless using an already translated
> description into zh_TW as default template for zh_CN would be useful,
> right? Same for pt and pt_BR.
>
> Michael, could you implement this? I also suggest to assume that the

I can, but...

pt/pt_BR don't like this...

I ask some pt_BR translators in the past and they don't like this.
Or is this changed?

> user always requests UTF-8 encodings if he didn't explicitely specified
> the encoding. So please always send "Description-<lang>.<encoding>:"
> messages, where <encoding> defaults to UTF-8. Thanks.

Ok, I can do this. comments?

Gruss
Grisu
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Ming Hua · External Since: Nov 16, 2006 Posts: 33

On Sun, Jul 15, 2007 at 12:24:14PM +0200, Jens Seidel wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 14, 2007 at 08:17:47PM -0500, Ming Hua wrote:
> >
> > Of course, I didn't suggest to drop them. I've now downloaded the
> > Translation-zh file and found out that they are all simplified (zh_CN)
> > translations, so should be merged into zh_CN. I'll do this via email
> > interface in the following days (I need to learn using DDTP), and it's
> > safe to turn off accepting zh translations now.
>
> It's not difficult but could nevertheless require a few hours of work:
> Obtain the current zh_CN translation via a subject line
> GET <package name> zh_CN.UTF-8
> Wait for the mail and decide wether the zh_CN or zh translation should
> be used (or merge both). Copy the translation into the proper mail
> attachment part and send it back to pdesc DeleteThis @ddtp.debian.net. That's all.
> (You can send multiple messages back at once, but test with a single one
> first.)

Thanks for the note. I am working on this.

> Thanks for the explanation. Nevertheless using an already translated
> description into zh_TW as default template for zh_CN would be useful,
> right? Same for pt and pt_BR.

It would be useful, yes, but probably not for every translator. I
personally like to compare with zh_TW translations when working on zh_CN
ones, but I know some translators don't like the other script.

The translation for zh_TW can't be used as is for zh_CN anyway, since
the scripts are still different even both are using UTF-8, and
conversion is required. As there is always political tension in such
issues, I suggest not to implement sending zh_TW translation as the
default template for zh_CN without discussion among zh_CN translators.
I am not doing DDTP translation myself so I would rather not be
involved. The Chinese DDTP translations doesn't seem very active now
anyway.

> Michael, could you implement this? I also suggest to assume that the
> user always requests UTF-8 encodings if he didn't explicitely specified
> the encoding. So please always send "Description-<lang>.<encoding>:"
> messages, where <encoding> defaults to UTF-8. Thanks.

Ming
2007.07.15

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