CENTOS. Did the Freetard Run Off With The Piggy Bank??????..

Moshe Goldfarb · External Since: Jul 08, 2009 Posts: 240

On Sat, 01 Aug 2009 15:21:20 -0700, Tim Smith wrote:

> In article ,
> Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
>
>> Why is Roy Schestowitz running in damage control on this story?
>>
>> A good journalist would be all over this story.
>>
>> http://boycottnovell.com/2009/07/31/centos-is-far-from-dying/#comment-71697
>
> Roy's position is that this is not news. I guess I haven't followed the
> open source world as closely as I thought I did, because it would never
> have occurred to me that project leaders disappearing for a year, while
> holding all of the project's donation and advertising money, has become
> so routine that it is not newsworthy--that's the implication in Roy's
> post.

Yea.
How true.

Had it been some deranged Microsoft secratary making off with
the milk money it would have been front page news on BN.

As a journalist Schestowitz is a sham

Moshe Goldfarb · External Since: Jul 08, 2009 Posts: 240

On Sat, 01 Aug 2009 15:22:23 -0700, Tim Smith wrote:

> In article ,
> RonB wrote:
>> Since I use CentOS and since I've directly communicated to CentOS
>> developers since the open letter was published on the CentOS website --
>> I'm curious as to exactly *how* Roy is supposedly running "damage
>> control." Where is your evidence for the "whitewash" or "softsoap"
>> treatment? You mean Roy is quoting the blogs of the developers who will
>> be the ones who actually continue *developing* CentOS?
>
> Never occurred to you to follow the link he posted, did it?

You're asking too much of him.

RonB · External Since: Dec 17, 2006 Posts: 718

Stone Mirror wrote:
> On Aug 1, 6:31 pm, RonB wrote:
>> Out of curiosity, what's your stake in CentOS?
>
> I don't particularly have one.
>
> My interest is really more in Roy's weirdly slanted reporting, e.g.
> the news that the guy responsible for CentOS (and the associated
> contributions) have been missing and incommunicado for nine months
> becomes "A maintainer may be leaving", while a story on the
> significant objections being raised by the LAPD, the city attorney's
> office and numerous privacy groups to a proposal to move Los Angeles'
> documentation infrastructure to Google Apps mutates into "Los Angeles
> is Dropping Microsoft in Favor of Google Apps".
>
> It's dishonest in both directions, but it's intriguing to see the
> _ways_ in which it's dishonest...

Kind of what I thought -- just an extension of your personal battle with
Roy. What else is new and what is with you guys that you just can't
ignore him? As for me, I do have a personal interest in CentOS -- I use
it -- and I haven't found Roy's reporting about the situation at CentOS
slanted at all.

--
RonB
"There's a story there...somewhere"

Snit · External Since: Jan 09, 2009 Posts: 2161

RonB stated in post h53094$64e$1@news.eternal-september.org on 8/1/09 8:05
PM:

> Stone Mirror wrote:
>> On Aug 1, 6:31 pm, RonB wrote:
>>> Out of curiosity, what's your stake in CentOS?
>>
>> I don't particularly have one.
>>
>> My interest is really more in Roy's weirdly slanted reporting, e.g.
>> the news that the guy responsible for CentOS (and the associated
>> contributions) have been missing and incommunicado for nine months
>> becomes "A maintainer may be leaving", while a story on the
>> significant objections being raised by the LAPD, the city attorney's
>> office and numerous privacy groups to a proposal to move Los Angeles'
>> documentation infrastructure to Google Apps mutates into "Los Angeles
>> is Dropping Microsoft in Favor of Google Apps".
>>
>> It's dishonest in both directions, but it's intriguing to see the
>> _ways_ in which it's dishonest...
>
> Kind of what I thought -- just an extension of your personal battle with
> Roy. What else is new and what is with you guys that you just can't
> ignore him? As for me, I do have a personal interest in CentOS -- I use
> it -- and I haven't found Roy's reporting about the situation at CentOS
> slanted at all.

Then Stone's comments should interest you... if you are not seeing a slant
and he is, then you should look to see if there is merit to his comments
and, if not, post info so "both sides" are represented well.

--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]

DFS · External Since: Jun 07, 2005 Posts: 3651

RonB wrote:

> This is basically a "changing of the guard" -- as a CentOS user I'm
> willing to wait a few days (or even a few weeks) to get this all
> sorted out. I've very happy that the developers have accomplished as
> much as they have already.
>
> Out of curiosity, what's your stake in CentOS?

I know your stake in it, WRonG: freeloader.

RonB · External Since: Dec 17, 2006 Posts: 718

Stone Mirror wrote:
> On Aug 1, 8:05 pm, RonB wrote:
>> What else is new and what is with you guys that you just can't
>> ignore him?
>
> If Roy and his little trollettes weren't in the habit of disrupting
> mailing lists, pouring endless (mostly anonymous) comments into blog
> postings with which they disagree, and going out of their way to
> malign members of the community, and instead confined their paranoia
> to Roy's web site, I think we'd be happy to ignore them.
>
> However, it's simply gotten to be flat-out impossible to have any sort
> of a reasoned discussion on a public mailing list or an unmoderated
> blog around things like sexism in the community, or Mono, or Stallman,
> or any number of things at odds with their extremist "agenda" without
> a bunch of back-seat drivers jumping in with a lot of vitriol,
> demands, abuse and unjustified senses of entitlement.

I don't see Roy's writing, except on COLA. The WinTroll problem is a lot
bigger issue here than what "Roy is doing." His news clippings are about
the only thing that keeps this newsgroup's signal to noise ratio
anywhere near even. With my many killfiles in place, I only see about a
third of the posts on this newsgroup as is.

And, as I've mentioned earlier, it looks like his reporting on the
CentOS situation turned out to be spot on.

--
RonB
"There's a story there...somewhere"

Tim Smith · External Since: Apr 26, 2004 Posts: 2760

In article ,
Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
> Had it been some deranged Microsoft secratary making off with
> the milk money it would have been front page news on BN.

There was a Microsoft employee who was accused of stealing from the
company a year or two ago, and it was front page news on BN.

--
--Tim Smith

Rick · External Since: Aug 02, 2004 Posts: 957

On Sun, 02 Aug 2009 05:13:00 -0700, Tim Smith wrote:

> In article ,
> Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
>> Had it been some deranged Microsoft secratary making off with the milk
>> money it would have been front page news on BN.
>
> There was a Microsoft employee who was accused of stealing from the
> company a year or two ago, and it was front page news on BN.

Let's say BN is anti-Microsoft, anti-Novell and pro-OSS. Why would you be
surprised that news of a Microsoft employee being accused of stealing
from the company a year or two ago was on the front page of BN?

And, the issues reported in the first open letter at centos.org have
either been resolved, or on schedule to be resolved.

And why are you not taking moshe to task for the subject of the thread,
especially since he/she hasn't acknowledged that the problems are being
rectified?

--
Rick

Stone Mirror · External Since: Jul 31, 2009 Posts: 10

On Aug 1, 8:28 pm, Snit wrote:
>
> Heck, look at how people freak out in COLA when it is noted that the
> consistency of desktop Linux could be improved. Just amazing.

The thing that I find worrisome is that, for all the heat and
amplitude they attempt to inject into any discussion, the folks most
prone to extremes—and Roy is an excellent example here—don't seem to
actually reflect the feelings of the actual development community (as
reflected by attendees at, say GCDS or FOSDEM) nor do they participate
in any meaningful way in the community. (I do not consider Roy's style
of "advocating" to be useful.)

Roy's evidently never gone to any sort of a community conference, in
spite of there being numerous ones in easy access to him, all year
long. He was invited to speak at a conference in Las Vegas at one point
—airfare, etc., would have been picked up by the conference, apparently
—but declined to go, citing fear of running into people
he'd...offended, somehow. Go figure.

Roy, at one point, attempted to take me to task as "not supporting the
FSF". I pointed out that while I indeed gave zero support to the FSF—
since I can't subscribe to or support their strange political agenda
or their PETA-like tactics—I _am_ a card-carrying, fsfe.org-address-
bearing Fellow of the FSF-Europe, a bunch of folks who make good sense
and whom I like quite a bit, on both a professional and a personal
basis.

I then asked Roy whether _he_ supported the FSF. Several times. To a
complete lack of response.

My conclusion is that, while he's quick to use things like "supports
the FSF" as litmus tests, he doesn't apparently even pass those tests
himself. That's not only hypocrisy, but underscores my point: Roy
isn't about solving problems, Roy is about complaining and drawing
attention to Roy. He evidently doesn't even believe in his own cause
strongly enough to lend any sort of support worth mentioning to the
main organization with which he's in alignment.

Snit · External Since: Jan 09, 2009 Posts: 2161

Stone Mirror stated in post
bd8c7a89-668f-4506-abde-585b2e0874ca.RemoveThis@q40g2000prh.googlegroups.com on 8/2/09
9:31 AM:

> On Aug 1, 8:28 pm, Snit wrote:
>>
>> Heck, look at how people freak out in COLA when it is noted that the
>> consistency of desktop Linux could be improved. Just amazing.
>
> The thing that I find worrisome is that, for all the heat and
> amplitude they attempt to inject into any discussion, the folks most
> prone to extremes‹and Roy is an excellent example here‹don't seem to
> actually reflect the feelings of the actual development community (as
> reflected by attendees at, say GCDS or FOSDEM) nor do they participate
> in any meaningful way in the community. (I do not consider Roy's style
> of "advocating" to be useful.)

They certainly do not reflect the general feelings of the OSS community.
Keeping to my focus on desktop UI consistency, if you look at the documents
of KDE and Gnome and Firefox and OpenOffice and pretty much any other large
OSS project, the focus on consistency is noted as being important. Yet the
very idea of making a well designed, internally consistent and flexible UI -
one that would allow users to have much more choice - is shunned in COLA.

This attitude, of course, does not just apply to consistency issues. The
"advocates" in COLA often do a disservice to Linux and to OSS in general.

> Roy's evidently never gone to any sort of a community conference, in
> spite of there being numerous ones in easy access to him, all year
> long. He was invited to speak at a conference in Las Vegas at one point
> ‹airfare, etc., would have been picked up by the conference, apparently
> ‹but declined to go, citing fear of running into people
> he'd...offended, somehow. Go figure.

Really? Can you show this? If true that is just amazing.

> Roy, at one point, attempted to take me to task as "not supporting the
> FSF". I pointed out that while I indeed gave zero support to the FSF‹
> since I can't subscribe to or support their strange political agenda
> or their PETA-like tactics‹I _am_ a card-carrying, fsfe.org-address-
> bearing Fellow of the FSF-Europe, a bunch of folks who make good sense
> and whom I like quite a bit, on both a professional and a personal
> basis.
>
> I then asked Roy whether _he_ supported the FSF. Several times. To a
> complete lack of response.

Of course.

> My conclusion is that, while he's quick to use things like "supports
> the FSF" as litmus tests, he doesn't apparently even pass those tests
> himself. That's not only hypocrisy, but underscores my point: Roy
> isn't about solving problems, Roy is about complaining and drawing
> attention to Roy. He evidently doesn't even believe in his own cause
> strongly enough to lend any sort of support worth mentioning to the
> main organization with which he's in alignment.

--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]

Rick · External Since: Aug 02, 2004 Posts: 957

On Sun, 02 Aug 2009 11:30:33 -0400, Moshe Goldfarb wrote:

> On Sun, 02 Aug 2009 05:13:00 -0700, Tim Smith wrote:
>
>> In article ,
>> Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
>>> Had it been some deranged Microsoft secratary making off with the milk
>>> money it would have been front page news on BN.
>>
>> There was a Microsoft employee who was accused of stealing from the
>> company a year or two ago, and it was front page news on BN.
>
> See!
> I didn't even know that.
>
> I understand that "bloggers" are going to give their particular POV and
> I have no problem with that.
> Schestowitz however has migrated way past the blogger level and by his
> own words considers himself a "journalist".
>
> With that title comes responsibility and accountability. Roy Schestowitz
> demonstrates neither.

Why don't you sue him?

--
Rick

Stone Mirror · External Since: Jul 31, 2009 Posts: 10

On Aug 2, 10:15Â am, Snit wrote:
>
> They certainly do not reflect the general feelings of the OSS community.
> Keeping to my focus on desktop UI consistency, if you look at the documents
> of KDE and Gnome and Firefox and OpenOffice and pretty much any other large
> OSS project, the focus on consistency is noted as being important. Â Yet the
> very idea of making a well designed, internally consistent and flexible UI -
> one that would allow users to have much more choice - is shunned in COLA.

I guess if one wanted to try to make a rational case _against_
consistency across different desktops, one could _try_. I'm not at all
sure that raising a hue and cry on USENET of all places serves any
rational purpose at all. (I can scarcely believe I'm back here; I can
sense tumbleweed rolling down the dusty streets... Weirdly, a number
of folks I remember as regulars on talk.bizarre from about a dozen and
a half years ago are _still_ regulars on talk.bizarre...)

I don't think that what happens in COLA has much practical influence
on what happens in the actual community. I don't think what happens on
Roy's cesspool of a "news" site has any practical influence on what
happens in the actual community, Roy's pretensions to the contrary
notwithstanding. That's not to say he doesn't condone and encourage
efforts to disrupt the community in furtherance of his "agenda".

Based on the opinions of the folks I spoke with at GCDS, anyone who
was aware of Roy and his activities (and it was maybe 60/40 in favor
of awareness, since he doesn't pester the KDE folks as much as the
GNOME folks) Roy's "approval rating" is in negative numbers, and if he
posted a story saying that he had five fingers on his right hand,
folks would want to see and count them personally before they believed
it. He, and his sites, and his buddies, are viewed as a Bad Thing For
The Community. His "advocavy" is neither valued nor appreciated.

> This attitude, of course, does not just apply to consistency issues. Â The
> "advocates" in COLA often do a disservice to Linux and to OSS in general.

Roy and his fellow cultists most certainly do, and in a disruptive
way. I've written at some length about this in my blog[1][2] as well.
Roy is basically nothing more than a griefer with his own web site,
and a bunch of willing grieferettes to assist (a number of whom seem
to "contribute" around here as well). They have too much time on their
hands and too little to do, and they pour their energies into
attempting to dictate to the rest of the community the manner in which
we should be "free".

> > Roy's evidently never gone to any sort of a community conference, in
> > spite of there being numerous ones in easy access to him, all year
> > long. He was invited to speak at a conference in Las Vegas at one point
> > â€¹airfare, etc., would have been picked up by the conference, apparently
> > â€¹but declined to go, citing fear of running into people
> > he'd...offended, somehow. Go figure.
>
> Really? Â Can you show this? Â If true that is just amazing.

Absolutely: unlike Roy, I don't make claims that I can't substantiate.
Read it, and weep:

http://boycottnovell.com/2008/12/20/irc-log-19122008/#tDec%2019%2021:14:14

and work your way down. Note Roy: "About that conference, I told that
'I donâ€™t feel as though I would be safe among a crowd that I have been
criticising, but I appreciate your offer enormously and will continue
to cover you in a friendly fashion.'"

http://boycottnovell.com/2008/12/20/irc-log-19122008/#tDec%2019%2021:20:35

When Roy is encouraged to "think about it for a while", he replies,
"No, I canâ€™t...Novell people would be there."

http://boycottnovell.com/2008/12/20/irc-log-19122008/#tDec%2019%2021:28:00

A bit later, Roy comments, "I remember when Michael Larabel asked me
to come to FOSDEM...Itâ€™s filled with Novell people, so I was
like'WTF?'"

http://boycottnovell.com/2008/12/20/irc-log-19122008/#tDec%2019%2021:31:03

This is FOSDEM we're talking about. One of the biggest and most
important general community-based conferences in Europe, if not the
world. It's filled with _all kinds of people_, all from the _actual
FLOSS community_. Yet, some _Novell_ people might attend (I was there,
it was scarcely "filled with" them), so, clearly, it's a no-go for
Roy.

Roy _fears for his safety_ from the FLOSS community and from Novell in
particular, apparently. Make of it what you will. Certainly I'm an
outspoken and reasonably well-known person in the FLOSS comunity, and
there are plenty of folks who disagree with me on one thing or
another, but I've never felt that I would be _unsafe_ attending a
conference. And I go to _plenty_ of them.

(If it's Miguel that Roy's worried about, I certainly wouldn't _blame_
Miguel for wanting to take a swing at Roy; in fact, if Miguel were to
ask me to--which he wouldn't--I'd be willing to seriously consider
holding Roy down while Miguel worked him over. That said, I have to
say that Miguel, who is more of a gentleman than I'll be in two
lifetimes, would never do such a thing: I've broken up an _actual
about-to-turn-into-a-fight_ with Miguel. Peacefully. He's a peaceful
guy. Me, I'm as peaceful as I _can_ be.)

How can Roy possibly "advocate" to the "free software community"? He
scarcely knows the names of anyone _in_ the "free software community",
except for those he's defamed (Miguel, Jeff Waugh, me) or otherwise
misrepresented (Hubert Figuiere, etc.)...

> > I then asked Roy whether _he_ supported the FSF. Several times. To a
> > complete lack of response.
>
> Of course.

A little consistency would be nice. I don't ask for a lot.

[1] http://opensourcetogo.blogspot.com/2009/06/when-zeal-becomes-zealotry-...dry-tal
[2] http://opensourcetogo.blogspot.com/2009/07/real-floss-community-and-fa...floss.h

Moshe Goldfarb · External Since: Jul 08, 2009 Posts: 240

On Sun, 02 Aug 2009 05:13:00 -0700, Tim Smith wrote:

> In article ,
> Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
>> Had it been some deranged Microsoft secratary making off with
>> the milk money it would have been front page news on BN.
>
> There was a Microsoft employee who was accused of stealing from the
> company a year or two ago, and it was front page news on BN.

See!
I didn't even know that.

I understand that "bloggers" are going to give their particular
POV and I have no problem with that.
Schestowitz however has migrated way past the blogger level and
by his own words considers himself a "journalist".

With that title comes responsibility and accountability.
Roy Schestowitz demonstrates neither.

Rick · External Since: Aug 02, 2004 Posts: 957

On Sun, 02 Aug 2009 12:13:08 -0400, DFS wrote:

> Rick wrote:
>> On Sun, 02 Aug 2009 11:30:33 -0400, Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 02 Aug 2009 05:13:00 -0700, Tim Smith wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article ,
>>>> Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
>>>>> Had it been some deranged Microsoft secratary making off with the
>>>>> milk money it would have been front page news on BN.
>>>>
>>>> There was a Microsoft employee who was accused of stealing from the
>>>> company a year or two ago, and it was front page news on BN.
>>>
>>> See!
>>> I didn't even know that.
>>>
>>> I understand that "bloggers" are going to give their particular POV
>>> and I have no problem with that.
>>> Schestowitz however has migrated way past the blogger level and by his
>>> own words considers himself a "journalist".
>>>
>>> With that title comes responsibility and accountability. Roy
>>> Schestowitz demonstrates neither.
>>
>> Why don't you sue him?
>
> For what, (p)Rick?

For whatever you and Moshe are railing about, kindergarten boy.

--
Rick

Rick · External Since: Aug 02, 2004 Posts: 957

On Sun, 02 Aug 2009 18:46:17 +0200, Hadron wrote:

> Stone Mirror writes:
>
>> On Aug 1, 8:28 pm, Snit wrote:
>>>
>>> Heck, look at how people freak out in COLA when it is noted that the
>>> consistency of desktop Linux could be improved. Just amazing.
>>
>> The thing that I find worrisome is that, for all the heat and amplitude
>> they attempt to inject into any discussion, the folks most prone to
>> extremes—and Roy is an excellent example here—don't seem to actually
>> reflect the feelings of the actual development community (as reflected
>> by attendees at, say GCDS or FOSDEM) nor do they participate in any
>> meaningful way in the community. (I do not consider Roy's style of
>> "advocating" to be useful.)
>>
>> Roy's evidently never gone to any sort of a community conference, in
>> spite of there being numerous ones in easy access to him, all year
>> long. He was invited to speak at a conference in Las Vegas at one point
>> —airfare, etc., would have been picked up by the conference, apparently
>> —but declined to go, citing fear of running into people
>> he'd...offended, somehow. Go figure.
>>
>> Roy, at one point, attempted to take me to task as "not supporting the
>> FSF". I pointed out that while I indeed gave zero support to the FSF—
>> since I can't subscribe to or support their strange political agenda or
>> their PETA-like tactics—I _am_ a card-carrying, fsfe.org-address-
>> bearing Fellow of the FSF-Europe, a bunch of folks who make good sense
>> and whom I like quite a bit, on both a professional and a personal
>> basis.
>>
>> I then asked Roy whether _he_ supported the FSF. Several times. To a
>> complete lack of response.
>>
>> My conclusion is that, while he's quick to use things like "supports
>> the FSF" as litmus tests, he doesn't apparently even pass those tests
>> himself. That's not only hypocrisy, but underscores my point: Roy isn't
>> about solving problems, Roy is about complaining and drawing attention
>> to Roy. He evidently doesn't even believe in his own cause strongly
>> enough to lend any sort of support worth mentioning to the main
>> organization with which he's in alignment.
>
> Since supporting the fsf in that way requires substantial donations you
> can be sure the COLA freetards do not.

Can we also be sure you do not?

--
Rick

DFS · External Since: Jun 07, 2005 Posts: 3651

Tim Smith wrote:
> In article ,
> Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
>> Had it been some deranged Microsoft secratary making off with
>> the milk money it would have been front page news on BN.
>
> There was a Microsoft employee who was accused of stealing from the
> company a year or two ago, and it was front page news on BN.

The Spamowitz luser reposted the story to cola several dozens of times.

Stone Mirror · External Since: Jul 31, 2009 Posts: 10

On Aug 2, 11:55 am, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>
> Any action on that front?

Indeed, but if you're expecting me to provide blow-by-blow coverage of
progress on USENET, you're going to be disappointed.

Sorry For The Inconvenience.

DFS · External Since: Jun 07, 2005 Posts: 3651

Rick wrote:
> On Sun, 02 Aug 2009 11:30:33 -0400, Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 02 Aug 2009 05:13:00 -0700, Tim Smith wrote:
>>
>>> In article ,
>>> Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
>>>> Had it been some deranged Microsoft secratary making off with the
>>>> milk money it would have been front page news on BN.
>>>
>>> There was a Microsoft employee who was accused of stealing from the
>>> company a year or two ago, and it was front page news on BN.
>>
>> See!
>> I didn't even know that.
>>
>> I understand that "bloggers" are going to give their particular POV
>> and I have no problem with that.
>> Schestowitz however has migrated way past the blogger level and by
>> his own words considers himself a "journalist".
>>
>> With that title comes responsibility and accountability. Roy
>> Schestowitz demonstrates neither.
>
> Why don't you sue him?

For what, (p)Rick?

Snit · External Since: Jan 09, 2009 Posts: 2161

Stone Mirror stated in post
b5851c8a-3edb-40bb-9db9-b8752f0c9076.DeleteThis@v23g2000pro.googlegroups.com on 8/2/09
11:03 AM:

> On Aug 2, 10:15Â am, Snit wrote:
>>
>> They certainly do not reflect the general feelings of the OSS community.
>> Keeping to my focus on desktop UI consistency, if you look at the documents
>> of KDE and Gnome and Firefox and OpenOffice and pretty much any other large
>> OSS project, the focus on consistency is noted as being important. Â Yet the
>> very idea of making a well designed, internally consistent and flexible UI -
>> one that would allow users to have much more choice - is shunned in COLA.
>
> I guess if one wanted to try to make a rational case _against_
> consistency across different desktops, one could _try_.

Well, different desktops, in my view, could be different... but if people
want to explain why they are against my views I would love to hear it... the
current "counter" is nothing more than "I do not understand or think I am
affected, so you are wrong... WRONG I say... and an idiot". In the many
back-and-forth debates on it, I do not recall any better "counter".

> I'm not at all
> sure that raising a hue and cry on USENET of all places serves any
> rational purpose at all. (I can scarcely believe I'm back here; I can
> sense tumbleweed rolling down the dusty streets... Weirdly, a number
> of folks I remember as regulars on talk.bizarre from about a dozen and
> a half years ago are _still_ regulars on talk.bizarre...)

Oh, I could be accused of being a regular for too long.

> I don't think that what happens in COLA has much practical influence
> on what happens in the actual community. I don't think what happens on
> Roy's cesspool of a "news" site has any practical influence on what
> happens in the actual community, Roy's pretensions to the contrary
> notwithstanding. That's not to say he doesn't condone and encourage
> efforts to disrupt the community in furtherance of his "agenda".

Fair enough.

> Based on the opinions of the folks I spoke with at GCDS, anyone who
> was aware of Roy and his activities (and it was maybe 60/40 in favor
> of awareness, since he doesn't pester the KDE folks as much as the
> GNOME folks) Roy's "approval rating" is in negative numbers, and if he
> posted a story saying that he had five fingers on his right hand,
> folks would want to see and count them personally before they believed
> it. He, and his sites, and his buddies, are viewed as a Bad Thing For
> The Community. His "advocavy" is neither valued nor appreciated.

Good to hear... except in COLA where the "advocates" clearly welcome and
value his spamming.

>> This attitude, of course, does not just apply to consistency issues. Â The
>> "advocates" in COLA often do a disservice to Linux and to OSS in general.
>
> Roy and his fellow cultists most certainly do, and in a disruptive
> way. I've written at some length about this in my blog[1][2] as well.
> Roy is basically nothing more than a griefer with his own web site,
> and a bunch of willing grieferettes to assist (a number of whom seem
> to "contribute" around here as well). They have too much time on their
> hands and too little to do, and they pour their energies into
> attempting to dictate to the rest of the community the manner in which
> we should be "free".

Ah, the old choice-is-good as long as it is my choice. Same folks who argue
against me when I push for more choice for users... and then lie and claim
more choice is "one true way" and thus bad.

>>> Roy's evidently never gone to any sort of a community conference, in
>>> spite of there being numerous ones in easy access to him, all year
>>> long. He was invited to speak at a conference in Las Vegas at one point
>>> â€¹airfare, etc., would have been picked up by the conference, apparently
>>> â€¹but declined to go, citing fear of running into people
>>> he'd...offended, somehow. Go figure.
>>
>> Really? Â Can you show this? Â If true that is just amazing.
>
> Absolutely: unlike Roy, I don't make claims that I can't substantiate.
> Read it, and weep:
>
> http://boycottnovell.com/2008/12/20/irc-log-19122008/#tDec%2019%2021:14:14
>
> and work your way down. Note Roy: "About that conference, I told that
> 'I donâ€™t feel as though I would be safe among a crowd that I have been
> criticising, but I appreciate your offer enormously and will continue
> to cover you in a friendly fashion.'"
>
> http://boycottnovell.com/2008/12/20/irc-log-19122008/#tDec%2019%2021:20:35
>
> When Roy is encouraged to "think about it for a while", he replies,
> "No, I canâ€™t...Novell people would be there."
>
> http://boycottnovell.com/2008/12/20/irc-log-19122008/#tDec%2019%2021:28:00
>
> A bit later, Roy comments, "I remember when Michael Larabel asked me
> to come to FOSDEM...Itâ€™s filled with Novell people, so I was
> like'WTF?'"
>
> http://boycottnovell.com/2008/12/20/irc-log-19122008/#tDec%2019%2021:31:03
>
> This is FOSDEM we're talking about. One of the biggest and most
> important general community-based conferences in Europe, if not the
> world. It's filled with _all kinds of people_, all from the _actual
> FLOSS community_. Yet, some _Novell_ people might attend (I was there,
> it was scarcely "filled with" them), so, clearly, it's a no-go for
> Roy.
>
> Roy _fears for his safety_ from the FLOSS community and from Novell in
> particular, apparently. Make of it what you will. Certainly I'm an
> outspoken and reasonably well-known person in the FLOSS comunity, and
> there are plenty of folks who disagree with me on one thing or
> another, but I've never felt that I would be _unsafe_ attending a
> conference. And I go to _plenty_ of them.
>
> (If it's Miguel that Roy's worried about, I certainly wouldn't _blame_
> Miguel for wanting to take a swing at Roy; in fact, if Miguel were to
> ask me to--which he wouldn't--I'd be willing to seriously consider
> holding Roy down while Miguel worked him over. That said, I have to
> say that Miguel, who is more of a gentleman than I'll be in two
> lifetimes, would never do such a thing: I've broken up an _actual
> about-to-turn-into-a-fight_ with Miguel. Peacefully. He's a peaceful
> guy. Me, I'm as peaceful as I _can_ be.)
>
> How can Roy possibly "advocate" to the "free software community"? He
> scarcely knows the names of anyone _in_ the "free software community",
> except for those he's defamed (Miguel, Jeff Waugh, me) or otherwise
> misrepresented (Hubert Figuiere, etc.)...

That is just amazing... thanks. And wow.

>>> I then asked Roy whether _he_ supported the FSF. Several times. To a
>>> complete lack of response.
>>
>> Of course.
>
> A little consistency would be nice. I don't ask for a lot.
>
> [1]
> http://opensourcetogo.blogspot.com/2009/06/when-zeal-becomes-zealotry-tawdry-t
> ale.html
> [2]
> http://opensourcetogo.blogspot.com/2009/07/real-floss-community-and-faux-floss
> .html

--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]

Hadron · External Since: Dec 05, 2006 Posts: 495

Stone Mirror writes:

> On Aug 1, 8:28 pm, Snit wrote:
>>
>> Heck, look at how people freak out in COLA when it is noted that the
>> consistency of desktop Linux could be improved. Just amazing.
>
> The thing that I find worrisome is that, for all the heat and
> amplitude they attempt to inject into any discussion, the folks most
> prone to extremes—and Roy is an excellent example here—don't seem to
> actually reflect the feelings of the actual development community (as
> reflected by attendees at, say GCDS or FOSDEM) nor do they participate
> in any meaningful way in the community. (I do not consider Roy's style
> of "advocating" to be useful.)
>
> Roy's evidently never gone to any sort of a community conference, in
> spite of there being numerous ones in easy access to him, all year
> long. He was invited to speak at a conference in Las Vegas at one point
> —airfare, etc., would have been picked up by the conference, apparently
> —but declined to go, citing fear of running into people
> he'd...offended, somehow. Go figure.
>
> Roy, at one point, attempted to take me to task as "not supporting the
> FSF". I pointed out that while I indeed gave zero support to the FSF—
> since I can't subscribe to or support their strange political agenda
> or their PETA-like tactics—I _am_ a card-carrying, fsfe.org-address-
> bearing Fellow of the FSF-Europe, a bunch of folks who make good sense
> and whom I like quite a bit, on both a professional and a personal
> basis.
>
> I then asked Roy whether _he_ supported the FSF. Several times. To a
> complete lack of response.
>
> My conclusion is that, while he's quick to use things like "supports
> the FSF" as litmus tests, he doesn't apparently even pass those tests
> himself. That's not only hypocrisy, but underscores my point: Roy
> isn't about solving problems, Roy is about complaining and drawing
> attention to Roy. He evidently doesn't even believe in his own cause
> strongly enough to lend any sort of support worth mentioning to the
> main organization with which he's in alignment.

Since supporting the fsf in that way requires substantial donations you
can be sure the COLA freetards do not.

--
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/windows-emulation/wine-faq/

"Nope, we know what an emulator does, and wine doesn't." - AH
** http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/dec7cb073d761af4