BBC/Microsoft Deal

mr.j.lloyd · External Since: Jul 12, 2007 Posts: 1

This has been covered in many other forums.

See :-
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/07/12/bbc_osc_meeting/
or
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/06/26/155214

Now there is a petition asking the Goverment to look into it, please
feel free to sign at :-

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/bbcmicrosoft/

Many thanks for your time.

John.

Andy Baxter · External Since: Jun 29, 2007 Posts: 16

On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 16:39:25 +0100, Gordon wrote:

> "Paul Sherwin" <paul.TakeThisOut@bogus.address> wrote in message
> news:pan.2007.07.12.15.14.06.683249@bogus.address...
>> Most BBC managers at all levels are non technical types with a
>> 'computers = microsoft' mindset. Many of them have a marketing
>> background. They just want a technical solution to a requirement and don't
>> look below the surface. They're also obsessed with copyright issues so
>> refuse to release material in any open format. That's how we finished up
>> with Realaudio for BBC audio streaming.
>>
>> The BBC doesn't have an internal IT or engineering operation any more,
>> it's all been 'outsourced', mostly to Siemens.
>>
>
> And yet this appears on the BBC website:
>
> Questions for Microsoft on Open Formats
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6291124.stm

and see also this:

http://kamaelia.sourceforge.net/GrandChallenges_final.pdf

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Paul Sherwin · External Since: Mar 20, 2007 Posts: 7

On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 07:02:33 -0700, mr.j.lloyd wrote:

> This has been covered in many other forums.
>
> See :-
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/07/12/bbc_osc_meeting/
> or
> http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/06/26/155214

Most BBC managers at all levels are non technical types with a
'computers = microsoft' mindset. Many of them have a marketing
background. They just want a technical solution to a requirement and don't
look below the surface. They're also obsessed with copyright issues so
refuse to release material in any open format. That's how we finished up
with Realaudio for BBC audio streaming.

The BBC doesn't have an internal IT or engineering operation any more,
it's all been 'outsourced', mostly to Siemens.

Paul

Gordon · External Since: Nov 11, 2005 Posts: 89

"Paul Sherwin" <paul DeleteThis @bogus.address> wrote in message
news:pan.2007.07.12.15.14.06.683249@bogus.address...
> Most BBC managers at all levels are non technical types with a
> 'computers = microsoft' mindset. Many of them have a marketing
> background. They just want a technical solution to a requirement and don't
> look below the surface. They're also obsessed with copyright issues so
> refuse to release material in any open format. That's how we finished up
> with Realaudio for BBC audio streaming.
>
> The BBC doesn't have an internal IT or engineering operation any more,
> it's all been 'outsourced', mostly to Siemens.
>

And yet this appears on the BBC website:

Questions for Microsoft on Open Formats
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6291124.stm

Tim Southerwood · External Since: Apr 23, 2007 Posts: 113

Gordon wrote:

> "Paul Sherwin" <paul.TakeThisOut@bogus.address> wrote in message
> news:pan.2007.07.12.15.14.06.683249@bogus.address...
>> Most BBC managers at all levels are non technical types with a
>> 'computers = microsoft' mindset. Many of them have a marketing
>> background. They just want a technical solution to a requirement and
>> don't look below the surface. They're also obsessed with copyright issues
>> so refuse to release material in any open format. That's how we finished
>> up with Realaudio for BBC audio streaming.
>>
>> The BBC doesn't have an internal IT or engineering operation any more,
>> it's all been 'outsourced', mostly to Siemens.
>>
>
> And yet this appears on the BBC website:
>
> Questions for Microsoft on Open Formats
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6291124.stm

Not to mention that their primary broadcast is done over an "open format".

Tim

Andy Baxter · External Since: Jun 29, 2007 Posts: 16

On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 17:29:27 +0100, Paul Sherwin wrote:

> On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 16:39:25 +0100, Gordon wrote:
>
>> And yet this appears on the BBC website:
>>
>> Questions for Microsoft on Open Formats
>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6291124.stm
>
> That's just a news story written around a FSF press release. Many
> technical and business stories originate in this way. There is little
> awareness of, or interest in, the issues raised within the BBC.
>

I think maybe it's not as simple as that. The link I posted is to a
document where the BBC R&D department are speculating about how the BBC
should approach an era where the majority of their broadcast output is
viewed online.

http://kamaelia.sourceforge.net/GrandChallenges_final.pdf

In it, they explicitly rule out proprietory formats and commercial
solutions as too expensive and too much against the grain of what people
actually want from the BBC, and propose instead a massively distributed
P2P system based on open formats, where people would cache large portions
of the BBC's archive on their hard disks and share programs with each
other using P2P.

So even though you may be right about the managerial culture, I think this
document shows that not everyone in the BBC thinks this way.

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Paul Sherwin · External Since: Mar 20, 2007 Posts: 7

On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 16:39:25 +0100, Gordon wrote:

> "Paul Sherwin" <paul.DeleteThis@bogus.address> wrote in message
> news:pan.2007.07.12.15.14.06.683249@bogus.address...
>> Most BBC managers at all levels are non technical types with a
>> 'computers = microsoft' mindset. Many of them have a marketing
>> background. They just want a technical solution to a requirement and don't
>> look below the surface. They're also obsessed with copyright issues so
>> refuse to release material in any open format. That's how we finished up
>> with Realaudio for BBC audio streaming.
>>
>> The BBC doesn't have an internal IT or engineering operation any more,
>> it's all been 'outsourced', mostly to Siemens.
>
> And yet this appears on the BBC website:
>
> Questions for Microsoft on Open Formats
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6291124.stm

That's just a news story written around a FSF press release. Many
technical and business stories originate in this way. There is little
awareness of, or interest in, the issues raised within the BBC.

Paul

Andy Burns · External Since: Nov 19, 2006 Posts: 60

On 12/07/2007 16:40, Tim Southerwood wrote:

> Not to mention that their primary broadcast is done over an "open format".

But to certain locality

kinslerp · External Since: Jul 01, 2004 Posts: 26

Andy Baxter <news5 RemoveThis @earthsong.null.free-online.co.uk> wrote:
> So even though you may be right about the managerial culture, I think this
> document shows that not everyone in the BBC thinks this way.

Once upon a time, they tested streaming radio using ogg formats:

http://support.bbc.co.uk/ogg/

#Paul

Tim Southerwood · External Since: Apr 23, 2007 Posts: 113

Andy Burns coughed up some electrons that declared:

> On 12/07/2007 16:40, Tim Southerwood wrote:
>
>> Not to mention that their primary broadcast is done over an "open
>> format".
>
> But to certain locality

That is true, but probably not so relevant. In a "DRM" sense, their internet
broadcast is effectively open: anyone anywhere with RealPlayer can view it.
Recording lockout can be worked around too.

So the lack of use of a proper open format for that transmission seems
careless, in that AFAIK Real-format isn't buying them any advantages over
any other format but it is a pain in the neck. Or is there something I've
missed?

Cheers

Tim

Andy Burns · External Since: Nov 19, 2006 Posts: 60

On 12/07/2007 21:34, Tim Southerwood wrote:

> In a "DRM" sense, their internet
> broadcast is effectively open: anyone anywhere with RealPlayer can view it.

I don't think so, when I was in Hungary the BBC site knew and blocked
access to the live streaming, it allowed the BBCWorld version of News24
I think, of course via proxies people could ovecome that too.

> So the lack of use of a proper open format for that transmission seems
> careless, in that AFAIK Real-format isn't buying them any advantages over
> any other format but it is a pain in the neck. Or is there something I've
> missed?

Of course I would like to see them use Theora or Dirac, why have they
been developing it if they won't now use it?

Andy Baxter · External Since: Jun 29, 2007 Posts: 16

On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 23:11:45 +0100, Tim Southerwood wrote:

> Andy Burns coughed up some electrons that declared:
>
>> On 12/07/2007 21:34, Tim Southerwood wrote:
>>
>>> In a "DRM" sense, their internet
>>> broadcast is effectively open: anyone anywhere with RealPlayer can
>>> view it.
>>
>> I don't think so, when I was in Hungary the BBC site knew and blocked
>> access to the live streaming, it allowed the BBCWorld version of News24
>> I think, of course via proxies people could ovecome that too.
>
> So they must be using geo-ip of some some sort. That's pretty tenuous -
> my own IP range was showing up as being in the USA (in one such
> database) until not so long ago and I've had it for years.
>
>>> So the lack of use of a proper open format for that transmission seems
>>> careless, in that AFAIK Real-format isn't buying them any advantages
>>> over any other format but it is a pain in the neck. Or is there
>>> something I've missed?
>>
>> Of course I would like to see them use Theora or Dirac, why have they
>> been developing it if they won't now use it?
>
> You do wonder don't you...

I was thinking the same thing. Their FAQ says this:

What needs doing?

There's still a lot to do. We need optimisation work for the encoder and
decoder - the encoder in particular will always benefit from speeding up.
We also need to integrate tools like global motion, and optimise other
tools. Another thing we lack is a buffer model and constant bit-rate
encoding.

For a full(er) list, see the TODO list.

When will Dirac be ready?

It depends what you mean by ready.

We already have a specification that can be used for real. We can code in
non-real time in software, and for many application real-time decoding is
now feasible. What we have not yet delivered is real hardware coders for
main-stream use. That is the next phase of the project.

http://dirac.sourceforge.net/faq.html#a19

I'm thinking maybe the people managing the BBC are more commercially
oriented, and out of touch with what's going on in R&D.

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Tim Southerwood · External Since: Apr 23, 2007 Posts: 113

Andy Burns coughed up some electrons that declared:

> On 12/07/2007 21:34, Tim Southerwood wrote:
>
>> In a "DRM" sense, their internet
>> broadcast is effectively open: anyone anywhere with RealPlayer can view
>> it.
>
> I don't think so, when I was in Hungary the BBC site knew and blocked
> access to the live streaming, it allowed the BBCWorld version of News24
> I think, of course via proxies people could ovecome that too.

So they must be using geo-ip of some some sort. That's pretty tenuous - my
own IP range was showing up as being in the USA (in one such database)
until not so long ago and I've had it for years.

>> So the lack of use of a proper open format for that transmission seems
>> careless, in that AFAIK Real-format isn't buying them any advantages over
>> any other format but it is a pain in the neck. Or is there something I've
>> missed?
>
> Of course I would like to see them use Theora or Dirac, why have they
> been developing it if they won't now use it?

You do wonder don't you...

Darren Davison · External Since: Jan 12, 2006 Posts: 22

On 2007-07-12, Tim Southerwood <ts DeleteThis @dionic.net> wrote:
> So they must be using geo-ip of some some sort. That's pretty tenuous - my
> own IP range was showing up as being in the USA (in one such database)
> until not so long ago and I've had it for years.

I don't think it's that sophisticated even. Last year I was blocked
from viewing content and was at the time browsing from an IP address
owned by ja.net (the Joint Academic network) here in the UK. I wrote to
them to ask how an IP address owned, operated and registered by UK
universities - supplying all the relevant lookup outputs - could be
considered "not in the UK". They responded saying they only permitted
access to the content from IP ranges who's owners (ISPs) had contacted
them to register specifically for this purpose.

--
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davisononline.org 0xE855B3EA

Andy Furniss · External Since: May 12, 2006 Posts: 28

mr.j.lloyd.RemoveThis@btinternet.com wrote:
> This has been covered in many other forums.
>
> See :-
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/07/12/bbc_osc_meeting/
> or
> http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/06/26/155214
>
> Now there is a petition asking the Goverment to look into it, please
> feel free to sign at :-
>
> http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/bbcmicrosoft/
>
> Many thanks for your time.
>
> John.
>

There is already a similar one with nearly 10k sigs

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/iplayer/

Andy.

Chris Davies · External Since: Apr 13, 2004 Posts: 267

>> broadcast is effectively open: anyone anywhere with RealPlayer can view it.

Andy Burns <usenet.oct2006.RemoveThis@adslpipe.co.uk> wrote:
> I don't think so, when I was in Hungary the BBC site knew and blocked
> access to the live streaming, it allowed the BBCWorld version of News24
> I think, of course via proxies people could ovecome that too.

They block access even within the UK if you use squid as your proxy,
or anything else that adds an X-Forward-For header. I had to hack my
local version to remove it (aren't binary editors useful Wink

Chris

Tim Southerwood · External Since: Apr 23, 2007 Posts: 113

Chris Davies wrote:

>>> broadcast is effectively open: anyone anywhere with RealPlayer can view
>>> it.
>
> Andy Burns <usenet.oct2006.DeleteThis@adslpipe.co.uk> wrote:
>> I don't think so, when I was in Hungary the BBC site knew and blocked
>> access to the live streaming, it allowed the BBCWorld version of News24
>> I think, of course via proxies people could ovecome that too.
>
> They block access even within the UK if you use squid as your proxy,
> or anything else that adds an X-Forward-For header. I had to hack my
> local version to remove it (aren't binary editors useful Wink

>
> Chris

Oh dear - they really are brain dead. I wish that people who should know
better wouldn't try to be clever in a half-arsed way.

Tim

Nick Kew · External Since: Jan 03, 2007 Posts: 13

On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 01:08:28 +0100
Andy Furniss <spam.RemoveThis@andyfurniss.entadsl.com> wrote:

> There is already a similar one with nearly 10k sigs
>
> http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/iplayer/

Unfortunately missing the point somewhat.
<q
cite="http://bahumbug.wordpress.com/2007/07/13/confusing-the-issues/">

What if the BBC in its early days as a state monopoly had broadcast
using a proprietary format that could only be received using one
manufacturerâ€™s radio or television set, and was encrypted against
reverse-engineering? We could have a monopoly manufacturer of radios
and TVs. No marketplace, no technology innovation, none of the
benefits of competition.

Yet that is exactly what theyâ€™re doing now with online contents.
Theyâ€™ve been developing something called the â€œiplayerâ€[1] to view
TV-like contents delivered over the â€˜net. The iplayer is available for
recent-windows only, so everyone else (including users of older windows
versions) are out in the cold. There can be no competition, no
innovation.

People are naturally upset about it, and thereâ€™s a petition on the UK
govt petitions website:

"The BBC plans to launch an on-demand tv service which uses software
that will only be available to Windows users. The BBC should not be
allowed to show commercial bias in this way, or to exclude certain
groups of the population from using its services. The BBC say that they
provide â€™services for everyone, free of commercial interests and
political biasâ€™. Locking the new serviceâ€™s users into Microsoft Windows
whilst ignoring those members of society who use other operating
systems should does not fit in with the BBCâ€™s ethos and should not be
allowed."

Right up to a point, but the focus is misplaced. Itâ€™s open to a valid
â€œwhere do we stopâ€ reply: If the BBC supports Mac and Linux users,
where does that leave BSD and Solaris? Then we can answer that with
â€œJust support X11â€³. â€œWhat about OS2? RiscOS (with all its BBC
associations)? New systems for new devices?â€ A line of argument
thatâ€™s destined to remain inconclusive, and supports replying with â€œWe
have to draw a line somewhereâ€.

The key argument must be around Open Standards. The BBCâ€™s core
business is to provide contents, not technology. With the widespread
availability of broadband internet, it makes sense for the BBC to make
contents available online. But they should of course use open
standards. Leave it to the marketplace to develop viewers for the
contents. The BBC is plenty big and popular enough to generate a
marketplace. We could naturally expect a choice of players, in exactly
the same way as we have a choice of radio or TV sets from competing
providers now.

And if not open standards, then at least a published standard. If they
really must reinvent a wheel.

How about the iplayer? Given that (in a sane world) the BBC is using a
published standard, one could perhaps argue that they should support
the majority viewing platform[2]. But to cross-subsidise that using
the BBCâ€™s license-payers money is monopolistic and anticompetitive.
Developers of media players for Windows should be rightly aggrieved.

[1] Doesnâ€™t â€œiplayerâ€ sound like something with an Apple trademark
written on it?

[2] Is it even a majority platform when windows versions older than
XP(?) are excluded?

</q>
(Hope the cut&paste hasn't done anything too stupid with line lengths)

--
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Application Development with Apache - the Apache Modules Book
http://www.apachetutor.org/

Dave Liquorice · External Since: Jan 11, 2005 Posts: 36

On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 09:17:57 +0100, Chris Davies wrote:

> They block access even within the UK if you use squid as your proxy,
> or anything else that adds an X-Forward-For header.

My Squid obviously doesn't add that header then. No problems watching BBC
stuff.

--
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Dave. pam is missing e-mail

Andy Baxter · External Since: Jun 29, 2007 Posts: 16

On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 23:11:45 +0100, Tim Southerwood wrote:

> Andy Burns coughed up some electrons that declared:
>> Of course I would like to see them use Theora or Dirac, why have they
>> been developing it if they won't now use it?
>
> You do wonder don't you...

From the dirac forums on sourceforge:

RE: BBCi and Dirac
By: Tim Borer (timborerProject Admin) - 2007-05-01 04:17 The BBC is
continuing to develop Dirac but is concentrating at the moment on
professional applications for the codec. Apart from meeting immediate
needs of the BBC these applications help us to develop the technology and
standardise the specification, a process which is currently progressing
within the SMPTE. We are continuing to develop both the core codec
software (with a new release expected in a few weeks) and Schrodinger.
Over time Dirac could be used within next generation iPlayer products,
which will require a platform independent solution.

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