Amendment to: reduce the length of DPL election process

MJ Ray · External Since: Jun 02, 2005 Posts: 272

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This is an amendment to aj's proposal shown at
http://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2007/07/msg00178.html

==== AMENDMENT PROPOSAL ====
Summary: reduce the campaign-only period to one week.

The change to paragraph four is replaced by:
4. For [-three weeks-] {+one week+} after that no more candidates
may be nominated; candidates should use this time for
campaigning [-(to make their identities-] and [-positions
known).-] {+discussion.+} If there are no candidates at the end
of the nomination period then the nomination period is extended
for [-three further weeks,-] {+an additional week,+} repeatedly
if necessary.
==== AMENDMENT PROPOSAL ====

I ask for comments and/or seconds, or aj to accept this amendment.

My rationale:

The campaign-only period is the most annoying bit of DPL elections,
but it escaped cuts in aj's proposal. Why? Let's cut it too!

We could shorten the election process even more by removing it, but it
looks useful for organising things to have some gap between
nominations and voting, yet I don't see why we should keep it at three
weeks instead of one. If any candidate wants to campaign for longer,
they should nominate as early as possible.

This is orthogonal to the amendment "Point 2 remains as before".

Regards,
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David Moreno Garza · External Since: Jul 28, 2007 Posts: 22

On Wed, 2007-08-08 at 16:12 +0100, MJ Ray wrote:
> ==== AMENDMENT PROPOSAL ====
> Summary: reduce the campaign-only period to one week.
>
> The change to paragraph four is replaced by:
> 4. For [-three weeks-] {+one week+} after that no more candidates
> may be nominated; candidates should use this time for
> campaigning [-(to make their identities-] and [-positions
> known).-] {+discussion.+} If there are no candidates at the end
> of the nomination period then the nomination period is extended
> for [-three further weeks,-] {+an additional week,+} repeatedly
> if necessary.
> ==== AMENDMENT PROPOSAL ====
>
> I ask for comments and/or seconds, or aj to accept this amendment.

I second this proposal.

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John H. Robinson, IV · External Since: Sep 11, 2004 Posts: 8

Simon Richter wrote:
>
> Which will probably mean that we will need options for this amendment in
> combination with other amendments for voting. Does that need to be
> spelled out, will that just magically happen or is that the most stupid
> idea you have ever heard?

All we would need is someone to combine the two, get enough seconds, and
the combination of both ideas will appear on the ballot. So you would
get four options, nicely matching the boolean table of the two
``independent'' options.

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MJ Ray · External Since: Jun 02, 2005 Posts: 272

"John H. Robinson, IV" <jaqque DeleteThis @debian.org> wrote:
> All we would need is someone to combine the two, get enough seconds, and
> the combination of both ideas will appear on the ballot. So you would
> get four options, nicely matching the boolean table of the two
> ``independent'' options.

Yes, that's my understanding. The "all the sensible combinations"
shortcut was deleted from Voting procedure on June 21st, 2003.

The vote was http://www.debian.org/vote/2003/vote_0002
and I found some explanation in comments about A.3 the thread under
http://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2003/02/msg00017.html

I think this is a bug which encourages:
- voter fatigue, because the (N+1)th amendment introduces up to N
combinations, each of which needs the same number of good seconds;
- filibustering, to stop combinations getting enough support before
the call for vote;
- premature combination of unrelated options, to get them through
before either of the above kick in.

In turn, this all means that we are less
likely to find the best resolution, along the lines explained in
http://accuratedemocracy.com/l_intro.htm
Question: do you think votes since June 2003 have been unifying?

Any road up, it's here: will anyone propose a combined amendment?
I'm not sure whether I can or whether that would affect either of the
others.

Regards,
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Manoj Srivastava · External Since: Dec 07, 2004 Posts: 678

On Wed, 08 Aug 2007 16:12:15 +0100, MJ Ray <mjr.RemoveThis@phonecoop.coop> said:

> This is an amendment to aj's proposal shown at
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2007/07/msg00178.html

> ==== AMENDMENT PROPOSAL ==== Summary: reduce the campaign-only period
> to one week.

> The change to paragraph four is replaced by:
> 4. For [-three weeks-] {+one week+} after that no more candidates
> may be nominated; candidates should use this time for
> campaigning [-(to make their identities-] and [-positions
> known).-] {+discussion.+} If there are no candidates at the end
> of the nomination period then the nomination period is extended
> for [-three further weeks,-] {+an additional week,+} repeatedly
> if necessary.
> ==== AMENDMENT PROPOSAL ====

> I ask for comments and/or seconds, or aj to accept this amendment.

> My rationale:

> The campaign-only period is the most annoying bit of DPL elections,
> but it escaped cuts in aj's proposal. Why? Let's cut it too!

> We could shorten the election process even more by removing it, but it
> looks useful for organising things to have some gap between
> nominations and voting, yet I don't see why we should keep it at three
> weeks instead of one. If any candidate wants to campaign for longer,
> they should nominate as early as possible.

This would probably mean that organizing the debate might have
to go; since the time period for identifying the candidates,
determining what time slots would work for them, the organizers, and
the audience would shrink, to the point that it is unlikely that there
would be any time for a post debate followup period to ask for
clarifications and all.

manoj
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MJ Ray · External Since: Jun 02, 2005 Posts: 272

Manoj Srivastava <srivasta DeleteThis @debian.org> wrote:
> On Wed, 08 Aug 2007 16:12:15 +0100, MJ Ray <mjr DeleteThis @phonecoop.coop> said:
> > Summary: reduce the campaign-only period to one week. [...]
>
> This would probably mean that organizing the debate might have
> to go; since the time period for identifying the candidates,
> determining what time slots would work for them, the organizers, and
> the audience would shrink, to the point that it is unlikely that there
> would be any time for a post debate followup period to ask for
> clarifications and all.

Would it? The organisers and most time slot limitations could be
identified before nominations close and the possibilities announced.
The organisers were already being identified before nominations closed
this year, after all:-

Organisers sought 15 Feb 2007 http://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2007/02/msg00150.html
Nominations closed 25 Feb 2007 http://www.debian.org/vote/2007/vote_001

Asking before nominations open probably would get a more neutral panel
than now. Candidates could be asked times as soon as they are
nominated, with a preference for an early debate. The time this year
was decided about 5 days after nominations closed:-

Announced 2 Mar 2007 http://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2007/03/msg00023.html

While we're shortening the election, maybe the debate could be cut
down from three hours, if it would make it simpler to organise. That
would also reduce the amount of material generated for voters to read.

Post-debate followup could still have nearly three weeks - as I was
rudely told this year, it was only convention that used to discourage
campaigning outside the campaign-only period, wasn't it? That
convention seems to be ignored fairly often in recent years.

So, I don't see why the debate wouldn't still happen if wanted. Would
Don Armstrong (lead organiser this year AIUI) like to post his opinion?

Regards,
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Don Armstrong · External Since: Jan 24, 2005 Posts: 236

On Wed, 08 Aug 2007, MJ Ray wrote:
> The organisers and most time slot limitations could be identified
> before nominations close and the possibilities announced. The
> organisers were already being identified before nominations closed
> this year, after all:-

The problem is really that figuring out a slot which will work for all
individuals concerned is non-trivial, and depends on finding out the
exact set of people involved.

> Organisers sought 15 Feb 2007 http://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2007/02/msg00150.html
> Nominations closed 25 Feb 2007 http://www.debian.org/vote/2007/vote_001
>
> Asking before nominations open probably would get a more neutral
> panel than now. Candidates could be asked times as soon as they are
> nominated, with a preference for an early debate.

It's not been my practice to discriminate in accepting people for the
panel; so it should be as neutral as possible. [Whoever is the
moderator is always going to be biased, but I don't think there's any
way to get around that.]

> The time this year was decided about 5 days after nominations
> closed:-
>
> Announced 2 Mar 2007 http://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2007/03/msg00023.html

Right; I imposed a time limitation on the responses from the
candidates to the debate schedule, and a rapid last call to the
scheduled time. I don't think that time can be cut down very much
unless the organizers were to send the "fast moving black objects"[1]
after the candidates.

> While we're shortening the election, maybe the debate could be cut
> down from three hours, if it would make it simpler to organise. That
> would also reduce the amount of material generated for voters to
> read.

The actual time that the debate takes isn't particularly troublesome
from an organizational standpoint, and if it becomes the case that we
can't fit a 3 hour (or whatever length the organizers decide on)
debate into the schedule of candiates, it can be abridged
appropriately.

The main issue from where I sit is allowing enough time for nominees
to post position statements and to have enough time for those position
statements digested by the electorate, and enough initial discussion
to occur so that interesting questions can be found for the debate. If
candidates don't have these ready at the beginning of the campaign
period, then the quality of the debate (and discussion) suffers.

Don Armstrong

1: TINCAITIIDNOH
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Lars Wirzenius · External Since: Dec 13, 2004 Posts: 118

On ke, 2007-08-08 at 18:47 -0700, Don Armstrong wrote:
> The main issue from where I sit is allowing enough time for nominees
> to post position statements and to have enough time for those position
> statements digested by the electorate, and enough initial discussion
> to occur so that interesting questions can be found for the debate. If
> candidates don't have these ready at the beginning of the campaign
> period, then the quality of the debate (and discussion) suffers.

I, as a voter, would also like to have ample time for discussion about
various topics after the IRC debate. Given the spread we have to many
time zones, and the speed with which discussions progress (not to be
confused with the number of e-mails per second), a week for discussion
really does sound to me like too little time.

Hurried campaigning does not seasoned choices make.

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Simon Richter · External Since: Dec 21, 2004 Posts: 95

Hi,

MJ Ray wrote:

> Yes, that's my understanding. The "all the sensible combinations"
> shortcut was deleted from Voting procedure on June 21st, 2003.

Would it make sense to reintroduce that?

Simon

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MJ Ray · External Since: Jun 02, 2005 Posts: 272

Don Armstrong <don RemoveThis @debian.org> wrote:
> MJ Ray wrote:
> > Asking before nominations open probably would get a more neutral
> > panel than now. [...]
> It's not been my practice to discriminate in accepting people for the
> panel; so it should be as neutral as possible. [...]

I didn't mean to suggest that you discriminated. Merely that
panellists self-selected after seeing some nominations this year.

> > The time this year was decided about 5 days after nominations
> > closed:-
> >
> > Announced 2 Mar 2007 http://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2007/03/msg00023.html
>
> Right; I imposed a time limitation on the responses from the
> candidates to the debate schedule, and a rapid last call to the
> scheduled time. I don't think that time can be cut down very much [...]

OK. Can you remember/extract what happened when between 24 Feb and 2
Mar? Did you contact candidates when they nominated or after close of
nominations?

Lars Wirzenius <liw RemoveThis @liw.iki.fi> wrote:
> I, as a voter, would also like to have ample time for discussion about
> various topics after the IRC debate. [...] a week for discussion
> really does sound to me like too little time.

Note that there could still be up to three weeks for discussion after
the IRC debate but before voting closes.

Also, I think cutting the "talking shop" campaign-only period is still
worth it, even if the IRC debate wouldn't happen in its current form.
It looks like it didn't happen in 2004, or before 2002.

Any more seconds for the top of the thread to at least put this as an
option on the ballot, please?

Regards,
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Lars Wirzenius · External Since: Dec 13, 2004 Posts: 118

On to, 2007-08-09 at 10:25 +0100, MJ Ray wrote:
> Lars Wirzenius <liw.DeleteThis@liw.iki.fi> wrote:
> > I, as a voter, would also like to have ample time for discussion
> about
> > various topics after the IRC debate. [...] a week for discussion
> > really does sound to me like too little time.
>
> Note that there could still be up to three weeks for discussion after
> the IRC debate but before voting closes.

Or possibly only two weeks, if aj's proposal to shorten it goes through,
as well. And that's still assuming our IRC debate happens right at the
beginning of the one week campaining period, when people still haven't
come up with good questions to candidates, or issues and themes to
discuss. To me, that is a bad way of dealing with an important
discussion.

Our voting period is long to deal with the fact that we are an
international organization of people with wildly varying demands on our
time. Otherwise, we could make the voting period be only one day, but
that would exclude people on vacation, work trips, ill, or otherwise
unable to attend to Debian things during that day. That would exclude
too many people, or require us to set up an absentee ballot system, and
a long voting period is so much simpler.

I think shortening the voting period to two weeks won't exclude very
many people. If it does, we should hopefully hear about them soon,
before we vote on aj's amendment, in which case I expect we'll be able
to vote for the shortening of the nomination period separately.

Replacing part of the campaining period with the voting period is again
bad for people who can't follow Debian full time. aj's proposal shortens
the time people have to discuss things with candidates from six weeks to
five; you would shorten it to three. To me, that is too short.

I am also uncomfortable with the assumption that the vigorous discussion
we often have during the campainig period would continue throughout the
voting period. While I don't endorse a full ban on discussion during the
voting period, unless we shorten the voting period to one or two days,
courtesy if nothing else has kept the voting period mostly free of
discussion during the past elections.

If the voluminous discussion continues through the voting period, that
effectively does reduce the useful voting period to just a day or two.
Otherwise you can't vote early without missing the discussion, and
voting while ignoring most of the discussion is a bad idea, I think.

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