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Warrior-poet



Joined: Feb 16, 2008
Posts: 101



PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 2:25 pm    Post subject: Will the left accept their responsibilty?

Will the left accept their responsibilty for the current food crisis?

http://www.nysun.com/news/food-crisis-eclipsing-climate-change

Dozens of people world wide have been killed in food riots. The situation is getting worse. Al Gore was the leading voice on ethanol. He touted it as the worlds best choice for the World and through it the elimination of the need for oil and it's dependency. And we in the U.S. and the European Union are not blameless either. Not by a long shot. In our search for cleaner energy we jumped aboard the "biofuels" bandwagon. This crisis hyping should be an object lesson. Fighting man made global warming (if there is man made global warming) is a tricky business and can only be undertaken after careful review of the costs and benefits.

One factor being blamed for the price hikes is the use of government subsidies to promote the use of corn for ethanol production. An estimated 30% of America’s corn crop now goes to fuel, not food.

“I don’t think anybody knows precisely how much ethanol contributes to the run-up in food prices, but the contribution is clearly substantial,” a professor of applied economics and law at the University of Minnesota, C. Ford Runge, said. A study by a Washington think tank, the International Food Policy Research Institute, indicated that between a quarter and a third of the recent hike in commodities prices is attributable to biofuels.
Last year, Mr. Runge and a colleague, Benjamin Senauer, wrote an article in Foreign Affairs, “How Biofuels Could Starve the Poor.”
“We were criticized for being alarmist at the time,” Mr. Runge said. “I think our views, looking back a year, were probably too conservative.”

Now, new data demonstrates that biofuels cost more energy than they save. When the hidden costs of conversion are included, greenhouse-gas emissions from corn ethanol over the next 30 years will be twice as high as from regular gasoline. In the long term, it will take 167 years before the reduction in carbon emissions from using ethanol 'pays back' the carbon released by land-use change.( the good news is Mr. Gore believes the world will be dead in a few decades so this point may be moot! Wink )

Ethanol is so costly that it wouldn't make it in a free market. That's why Congress has enacted major ethanol subsidies, about $1.05 to $1.38 a gallon, which is no less than a tax on consumers. In fact, there's a double tax -- one in the form of ethanol subsidies and another in the form of handouts to corn farmers to the tune of $9.5 billion in 2005 alone. There's something else wrong with this picture. If Congress and President Bush(Yes he too has jumped on the Gore band wagon) say we need less reliance on oil and greater use of renewable fuels, then why would Congress impose a stiff tariff, 54 cents a gallon, on ethanol from Brazil? Brazilian ethanol, by the way, is produced from sugar cane and is far more energy efficient, cleaner and cheaper to produce.


Ethanol production has driven up the prices of corn-fed livestock, such as beef, chicken and dairy products, and products made from corn, such as cereals. As a result of higher demand for corn, other grain prices, such as soybean and wheat, have also risen dramatically.

The fact that the U.S. is the world's largest grain producer and exporter means that the ethanol-induced higher grain prices will have a worldwide impact on food prices.


It's easy to understand how the public, looking for cheaper gasoline, can be taken in by the call for increased ethanol usage. But politicians, corn farmers and ethanol producers know they are running a cruel fraud on the American consumer. They are in it for the money. The top leader in the ethanol hoax is Archer Daniels Midland (ADM), the country's largest producer of ethanol. Ethanol producers and the farm lobby have pressured farm state congressmen into believing that it would be political suicide if they didn't support subsidized ethanol production. That's the stick. Campaign contributions play the role of the carrot.


The ethanol fraud is a good example of a problem economists refer to as narrow, well-defined benefits versus widely dispersed costs. It pays the ethanol lobby to organize and collect money to grease the palms of politicians willing to do their bidding because there's a large benefit for them -- higher wages and profits. The millions of gasoline consumers, who fund the benefits through higher fuel and food prices, as well as taxes, are relatively uninformed and have little clout. After all, who do you think a politician will invite into his congressional or White House office to have a heart-to-heart -- you or an Archer Daniels Midlands executive?

Perhaps those on the left should remember that funds spent on reducing global warming are diverted from other worthy efforts like supplying clean drinking water to Africa, fighting malaria, and improving flood control infrastructure. And as we are now seeing on our front pages, there are direct costs like dramatically increasing the price of food and pushing millions of poor people to desperation

The left has always run headlong into "Crisis" situations, real or not, and have created more pain the succor. This is just another example.This is not to suggest that all efforts to conserve energy or maintain the environment are folly. Rather, it's a cautionary tale. How much environmental improvement do we really get and -- this is paramount -- at what price? How many more deaths will be necessary before the left understands that solutions take time and restraint?

I apologize beforehand if my 'tone' is somewhat harsh. But this lies at Gores feet. The King of the left. This is his war. Will he be held responsible as Bush is with the Iraq war? Let the spinning begin!
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Sgt Schultz



Joined: Dec 07, 2002
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Location: St. Louis area

PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 6:15 pm    Post subject:

Your entire post boils down to that it's Al Gores's fault? Talk about spin. It is hardly the "left" that is involved in this:

Quote:
It's easy to understand how the public, looking for cheaper gasoline, can be taken in by the call for increased ethanol usage. But politicians, corn farmers and ethanol producers know they are running a cruel fraud on the American consumer. They are in it for the money. The top leader in the ethanol hoax is Archer Daniels Midland (ADM), the country's largest producer of ethanol. Ethanol producers and the farm lobby have pressured farm state congressmen into believing that it would be political suicide if they didn't support subsidized ethanol production. That's the stick. Campaign contributions play the role of the carrot.


As that paragraph put it; it is all about money which knows no political affiliation.
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xavierx



Joined: Nov 06, 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 6:44 pm    Post subject:

I would argue that it is the left that has been pushing alternatives to petroleum, but yes, as with most things, it's more that one side's fault. I just wish we'd get the same kind of condemnation from the endless "spin" against the right.
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Sgt Schultz



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:01 pm    Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.]

xavierx wrote:
I would argue that it is the left that has been pushing alternatives to petroleum, but yes, as with most things, it's more that one side's fault. I just wish we'd get the same kind of condemnation from the endless "spin" against the right.


It is my choice to decide what posts I reply to or don't reply to. Silence does not equate to agreement on a message board. Sometimes it just isn't worth the bother.
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Sgt Schultz



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:15 pm    Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.]

This shortage is an artificial 'shortage' caused by market forces. The recent dramatic price increases have caused hoarding on all levels of the supply chain worldwide.

2 April 2008, Rome – World rice production is expected to increase i...008 by

But it is tied to the general trend in food commodities. The price-dynamic of biofuel in relation to oil and use agricultural resources are far more important than any supposed "shortage".

It started to affect US stores a few days ago: Many parts of America, ...g consi

The US is an exporter of rice, it produces more than twice as much as it needs. It is the price rather than a shortage which causes problems:

The World Food Programme said this week that the poor would be hardest...t by ra
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xavierx



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 8:05 pm    Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.]

That is part of the problem, but as the original article said:
Quote:
One factor being blamed for the price hikes is the use of government subsidies to promote the use of corn for ethanol production. An estimated 30% of America’s corn crop now goes to fuel, not food.

“I don’t think anybody knows precisely how much ethanol contributes to the run-up in food prices, but the contribution is clearly substantial,” a professor of applied economics and law at the University of Minnesota, C. Ford Runge, said. A study by a Washington think tank, the International Food Policy Research Institute, indicated that between a quarter and a third of the recent hike in commodities prices is attributable to biofuels.

In addition, it is caused by the increased price of oil, which right now is being driven up by speculators who are betting that the use of corn for fuel will be curtailed soon given the food shortages. Also, if the corn being used for fuel were available for food, meat and vegetable oil prices would be lower, and corn could be used to replace any rice shortage. For that matter, the decrease in corn available for food may be causing the increase in demand for rice, causing a shortage of both.

However, as we both said, you can't just blame this on the left. Many on the right jumped on the bandwagon when it became popular, too. Unfortunately, as is the case with many bandwagons, it wasn't well thought out, and now we're all starting to pay the price (literally).
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Sgt Schultz



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 9:16 pm    Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.]

xavierx wrote:
In addition, it is caused by the increased price of oil, which right now is being driven up by speculators who are betting that the use of corn for fuel will be curtailed soon given the food shortages. Also, if the corn being used for fuel were available for food, meat and vegetable oil prices would be lower, and corn could be used to replace any rice shortage. For that matter, the decrease in corn available for food may be causing the increase in demand for rice, causing a shortage of both.

However, as we both said, you can't just blame this on the left. Many on the right jumped on the bandwagon when it became popular, too. Unfortunately, as is the case with many bandwagons, it wasn't well thought out, and now we're all starting to pay the price (literally).


We have silos full of corn here in Illinois and other places that aren't being used, it just sits in storage. We also pay farmers not to plant crops. It's all about money.
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kenmabmcc



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 10:31 pm    Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.]

World food production and prices have been historically affected by the various OECD countries agricultural policy's.

Farmer subsidies and tariff walls have always worked against effective food production in many countries.

The cost of ethanol in the US is one example, every citizen pays a hidden cost for the subsidy through taxation,
while cheaper ethanol from Brazil hits a tariff wall.
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bern



Joined: Mar 12, 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 8:26 am    Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.]

kenmabmcc wrote:
The cost of ethanol in the US is one example, every citizen pays a hidden cost for the subsidy through taxation,
while cheaper ethanol from Brazil hits a tariff wall.


By golly! A point of agreement between Ken and me!

Just two addtions to the above: If Brazil were shipping food instead of turning it into Ethanol, there would be more food available worldwide. So, while I favor tariff free international trade, I do not favor so much buying Brazilian ethanol; but the market should decide what it wants freely despite what I personally want.

Second: This whole thing reeks of the law of unintended consequences. I do recall that there were voices in the wilderness who predicted years ago that the biofuel frenzy would lead to trouble, but most folks ignored those voices. In anything as important worldwide as energy sufficiency, we must proceed only after careful consideration, in an evolutionary, not revolutionary fashion. If we do not, we will face more such debacles.
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Warrior-poet



Joined: Feb 16, 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 9:51 am    Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.]

"Your entire post boils down to that it's Al Gores's fault? Talk about spin. It is hardly the "left" that is involved in this: "

Very well done Sgt, Shultz. I knew I could count on you. The last topic I had commented upon was about the "Bush's War" diatribes on another posting in these forums. How everyone else got a free pass and all the rhetoric was directed at Bush because he is the leader. Is this not so?
That was a side comment concerning Gore since he leads the charge for all radical thoughts for the left!. Perhaps you missed the tittle of this posting. It's about the left. Of course their are some on the right who followed foolishly in this and if you read the whole article I chastised both sides of the spectrum. But some here have simply focused on one small point.

Since some on this forum find long fact filled essays somewhat tedious and my tone unfriendly,I cut my thoughts down to a more manageable level for them.
I was going to remind all here of the DDT scandal that resulted in the genocide of millions of Africans.
I would have shown in detail how abortions and sexually transmitted diseases killed millions more in the name of social progress , led by the 'progressive' thinking of the left in the sixties.
Or perhaps the glory of communism by the same elitist progressive thinkers who knew better than anybody and ignored basic truths.

All these follow the same routine of the left. Create imagined crisis's despite the facts. Create solutions without testing or reviewing the cost and benefits of said solutions. Then blaming everyone else for their failures. Thus feeding political partisanship. Thus creating a deeper hole for America to climb out of.

But When I see those pictures of murdered people who's only crime was hunger , i can't help seeing who's ideas led to these deaths.

I fault Bush's policies of surrendering logic to the political whims of the left which led to these deaths.

Sorry to be redundant Sgt Shultz but....

Will the left accept their responsibility for the current food crisis?
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Sgt Schultz



Joined: Dec 07, 2002
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Location: St. Louis area

PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 11:25 am    Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.]

Warrior-poet wrote:
"Your entire post boils down to that it's Al Gores's fault? Talk about spin. It is hardly the "left" that is involved in this: "

Very well done Sgt, Shultz. I knew I could count on you. The last topic I had commented upon was about the "Bush's War" diatribes on another posting in these forums. How everyone else got a free pass and all the rhetoric was directed at Bush because he is the leader. Is this not so?
That was a side comment concerning Gore since he leads the charge for all radical thoughts for the left!. Perhaps you missed the tittle of this posting. It's about the left. Of course their are some on the right who followed foolishly in this and if you read the whole article I chastised both sides of the spectrum. But some here have simply focused on one small point.

Since some on this forum find long fact filled essays somewhat tedious and my tone unfriendly,I cut my thoughts down to a more manageable level for them.
I was going to remind all here of the DDT scandal that resulted in the genocide of millions of Africans.
I would have shown in detail how abortions and sexually transmitted diseases killed millions more in the name of social progress , led by the 'progressive' thinking of the left in the sixties.
Or perhaps the glory of communism by the same elitist progressive thinkers who knew better than anybody and ignored basic truths.

All these follow the same routine of the left. Create imagined crisis's despite the facts. Create solutions without testing or reviewing the cost and benefits of said solutions. Then blaming everyone else for their failures. Thus feeding political partisanship. Thus creating a deeper hole for America to climb out of.

But When I see those pictures of murdered people who's only crime was hunger , i can't help seeing who's ideas led to these deaths.

I fault Bush's policies of surrendering logic to the political whims of the left which led to these deaths.

Sorry to be redundant Sgt Shultz but....

Will the left accept their responsibility for the current food crisis?


The reason I focused on your point of bringing up Al Gore is because it is nothing but a straw man/red herring method of debate. Al Gore is a vocal advocate of man made global warming and the use of ethanol, but he is hardly the only one that has been advocating it. Many were doing it before he got on board. Yet his name is divisive so it gets thrown out there as a way to discredit any discussion of the subject. Your post was all well and good, with some relevant points but then at the last moment his name gets thrown in as a good measure. Just like clockwork. Is there a Godwin's law for that? If not there should be. You see, Al Gore has not been elected leader of anything so your comparison of him to Bush and the war on Iraq is also a straw man/red herring. But like a few other boards I visit I knew someone would try to make the comparison; apples and oranges, apples and oranges.

I believe if Al Gore wasn't involved in the entire subject of global warming more conservatives would probably be more receptive to the discussion.
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bern



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 12:24 pm    Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.]

Sgt Schultz wrote:
I believe if Al Gore wasn't involved in the entire subject of global warming more conservatives would probably be more receptive to the discussion.

I don't think so. What turns conservatives off is the "impending apocalypse" approach many greens use, and the "hurry up and do something like use ethanol" attitude that is advocated by many including many in the press. The true conservative approach would avoid much of the unintended consequences we see from precipitate action. "hide your head in the sand despite the facts" is not a conservative approach. It is just dumb. But get the facts right first.
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Sgt Schultz



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 2:34 pm    Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.]

bern wrote:
Sgt Schultz wrote:
I believe if Al Gore wasn't involved in the entire subject of global warming more conservatives would probably be more receptive to the discussion.

I don't think so. What turns conservatives off is the "impending apocalypse" approach many greens use, and the "hurry up and do something like use ethanol" attitude that is advocated by many including many in the press. The true conservative approach would avoid much of the unintended consequences we see from precipitate action. "hide your head in the sand despite the facts" is not a conservative approach. It is just dumb. But get the facts right first.


But it also has been big business, especially the likes of Archer Daniels Midland that have been pushing for ethanol production. The farming industry and lobby have also been pushing it. That is why you don't see grass cane being planted such as they use in Brazil. It grows faster, is cheaper and produces more energy than corn. But that isn't what companies like ADM and Monsanto have their business model set up to produce so they don't want it used here.
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xavierx



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 2:55 pm    Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.]

Sgt Schultz wrote:
bern wrote:
Sgt Schultz wrote:
I believe if Al Gore wasn't involved in the entire subject of global warming more conservatives would probably be more receptive to the discussion.

I don't think so. What turns conservatives off is the "impending apocalypse" approach many greens use, and the "hurry up and do something like use ethanol" attitude that is advocated by many including many in the press. The true conservative approach would avoid much of the unintended consequences we see from precipitate action. "hide your head in the sand despite the facts" is not a conservative approach. It is just dumb. But get the facts right first.


But it also has been big business, especially the likes of Archer Daniels Midland that have been pushing for ethanol production. The farming industry and lobby have also been pushing it. That is why you don't see grass cane being planted such as they use in Brazil. It grows faster, is cheaper and produces more energy than corn. But that isn't what companies like ADM and Monsanto have their business model set up to produce so they don't want it used here.
Just to throw my two cents in, real conservatives were against the "do something now" approach before Gore got involved. I agree with Bern - real conservatives wanted, and still want, a measured, thought out approach, that takes all factors and consequences into account before we jump to conclusions. That's not what we have now by a long shot.

Of course, that's real conservatives. The extremists on the right I'm sure are more against ethanol just because of Gore - the same as the extremists on the left are against anything Bush says. Bust most of us aren't extremists. I think we get a skewed view on this forum (and others) because it's the extremists who post most frequently and loudly, and as we all know, if you try to be moderate or just less extreme, you get attacked by both sides.

As for big business and the farm industry, of course they're for it. They are interested in the money, like you said. But that doesn't affect real conservatives. It does affect the politicians on both sides, but I wouldn't call many (if any) politician a real conservative!
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Sgt Schultz



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 2:59 pm    Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.]

xavierx wrote:
Just to throw my two cents in, real conservatives were against the "do something now" approach before Gore got involved. I agree with Bern - real conservatives wanted, and still want, a measured, thought out approach, that takes all factors and consequences into account before we jump to conclusions. That's not what we have now by a long shot.

Of course, that's real conservatives. The extremists on the right I'm sure are more against ethanol just because of Gore - the same as the extremists on the left are against anything Bush says. Bust most of us aren't extremists. I think we get a skewed view on this forum (and others) because it's the extremists who post most frequently and loudly, and as we all know, if you try to be moderate or just less extreme, you get attacked by both sides.

As for big business and the farm industry, of course they're for it. They are interested in the money, like you said. But that doesn't affect real conservatives. It does affect the politicians on both sides, but I wouldn't call many (if any) politician a real conservative!


I think we agree on something. Wink Very Happy Laughing
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bern



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 3:27 pm    Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.]

Sgt Schultz wrote:
[But it also has been big business, especially the likes of Archer Daniels Midland that have been pushing for ethanol production. The farming industry and lobby have also been pushing it. That is why you don't see grass cane being planted such as they use in Brazil. It grows faster, is cheaper and produces more energy than corn. But that isn't what companies like ADM and Monsanto have their business model set up to produce so they don't want it used here.


Absolutely. As a libertarian, I deplore "welfare for industry" as proposed by both the left and the right. Grass cane may well be much better than corn from several aspects. But as long as the government meddles in the market, we will never know.
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Sgt Schultz



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 3:51 pm    Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.]

Another aspect of the rising cost of food and oil prices world wide is tied to the weakness of the US dollar. Plus the rising demand from India and China for oil. In our current world and life style all of us are intertwined.
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Warrior-poet



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:21 pm    Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.]

Sgt. Shultz,
I thank you for the giggle. Is there a Godwins law for Gore? Wouldn't it be easier if you simply said, The debate is over! Wink But why are you giving him a pass Sgt? He is the leader of the left , like it or not. He's the Pulitzer prize winning, UN speech making Global warming leader of the world. He holds office no more but he still holds court for all who will listen.

And yes we are all intertwined. That was part of the flow of my opening comment. What happens here affects the world. Not a statement of braggadocio but a fact. Which was the main point of the posting. Mr Gore even now has pledged 300 million to the cause, in which Kyoto and other such nonsense would surely collapse the nations economy. These false crusades sound pretty on the top but who will pay the price? Reports of hundreds of food riots have risen throughout the third world. Will Gore and the left fix it or will blame be assigned elsewhere and onto the next nefarious scheme? So fall the schemes of the left and all of America is held to blame. Don't you think that may be some of the influence towards the American Dollar? Would you trust the dollar if you believed Clinton or Obama made it to the White house and gave free reign to the left? Would you invest?
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Sgt Schultz



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:52 pm    Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.]

Warrior-poet wrote:
Sgt. Shultz,
I thank you for the giggle. Is there a Godwins law for Gore? Wouldn't it be easier if you simply said, The debate is over! Wink But why are you giving him a pass Sgt? He is the leader of the left , like it or not. He's the Pulitzer prize winning, UN speech making Global warming leader of the world. He holds office no more but he still holds court for all who will listen.


Did or have I ever said I give him a pass? You make a lengthy post and then at the end it is "Al Gore"!!! Al Gore is no more the leader of the left than George Bush is the leader of the right. Left and right are not nothing more than generalizations of disparate groups with some similar interests. While sometimes it is easier to generalize (I am guilty of it myself) there is no elected group of right or left leaders as a whole. As Xavierx put it the vocal and those that are extreme are the ones who get the attention. That does not make them leaders.

Do not assume that because I don't agree with the policies of Bush in regards to Iraq or that I support conservation that I am a member of the left. Quite frankly unless you've read through the thousands of posts here that I have made you don't know enough about me from the time you've been here. I don't make such assumptions about you.

Quote:
And yes we are all intertwined. That was part of the flow of my opening comment. What happens here affects the world. Not a statement of braggadocio but a fact. Which was the main point of the posting. Mr Gore even now has pledged 300 million to the cause, in which Kyoto and other such nonsense would surely collapse the nations economy. These false crusades sound pretty on the top but who will pay the price? Reports of hundreds of food riots have risen throughout the third world. Will Gore and the left fix it or will blame be assigned elsewhere and onto the next nefarious scheme? So fall the schemes of the left and all of America is held to blame. Don't you think that may be some of the influence towards the American Dollar? Would you trust the dollar if you believed Clinton or Obama made it to the White house and gave free reign to the left? Would you invest?


As I posted in the links above there is no food shortage. The riots you mention have to do with the cost of food. Inflation is taking its toll. Do you believe the trust in the American dollar is going to improve if McCain takes office? His stated policy is to continue on with the policies of Bush. The war in Iraq, our growing debt, and the rise in demand from China and India for oil are weakening the confidence and affecting the stability of our currency.
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bern



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 9:24 pm    Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.]

Sgt Schultz wrote:
Al Gore is no more the leader of the left than George Bush is the leader of the right. Left and right are not nothing more than generalizations of disparate groups with some similar interests.

Warrior-poet wrote:
He is the leader of the left , like it or not.

xavierx wrote:
The extremists on the right I'm sure are more against ethanol just because of Gore - the same as the extremists on the left are against anything Bush says.

I tried a few months ago to get a discussion going here on what "left" and "right" actually might mean. Almost no participants. So either nobody knows what the terms mean, or nobody cares. Either way, it makes no sense to use them, as language only conveys information if we agree on the meanings of words. So, I don't understand what any of the comments above are supposed to mean, as my definition might be much different than that of the user.

(I am now going to prove Godwin's law) For example, Socialists are commonly thought to be of the left. The Nazis called themselves socialists, and enacted economic policies similar to those of other socialist countries. Yet, many people think they were on the extreme right. And I have yet to hear a rational explanation of why.
(flame off)
So, maybe the discussion would be more informative and persuasive if we stopped using the terms left and right, and used more descriptive and commonly understood terms instead.
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