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kenmabmcc
Joined: Nov 20, 2003
Posts: 8172
Location: Dunedin, New Zealand.
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 Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 3:57 pm Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
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| tony7914 wrote: |
| Washington will screw it up. |
It is screwed up now.
Failure of U.S. profit-centered health insurance
| Quote: |
| Spending almost twice as much, the U.S. has worse health outcomes than other industrialized nations. Uniquely, U.S. health care is dependent on over 1200 for-profit health insurances, functioning as gatekeepers. Underwriting -- the art of risk evaluation and avoidance -- insures profits by covering the healthy and rejecting everyone else as a "pre-existing condition." |
Well you cannot expect a private for profit insurer to insure sick people,
there would be no profit from that group......
| Quote: |
Notably, more than 20 federal and state studies since 1990, including the 2007 Lewin Group evaluation in Colorado, have demonstrated that single-payer health insurance is the only reform model that can both save money and provide comprehensive health care benefits for all.
Contrary to assertions by the "free market" choir, only single payer insurance permits unlimited choice of pubic and private providers; private insurance limits choice to "in plan" doctors. Only single payer provides comprehensive benefits and protection against medical bankruptcy. It is the only equitable, sustainable health financing system. |
In NZ's "socialised" system I choose which doctor or group of doctors I use,
just yesterday we received a letter advising us of new doctors in a local group practise,
giving us their experience and expertise,
so we may change our provider if we choose.
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ejward
Joined: Jan 06, 2003
Posts: 7054
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:36 pm Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
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| tony7914 wrote: |
@ej
| Quote: |
| Why would i pay for private insurance too? If the universal health plan is done right, there would be no need for supplemental insurance. People are just assuming that it will be done wrong. Medicare has covered everything my Mother has ever needed. She's never been rejected for anything. They even pay for brand name drugs when the doctor says it's needed. I'm forced to use generics no matter what my doctor says. |
Most insurance will pay for name brands if the doctor can show they are needed. If there is a generic available for the same drug your better off getting it as it will be cheaper and is the same thing. |
Most? This is based on what? In the past 3 years there have been 4 different plans with my employer. None of them will pay for a brand name when there is a generic available regardless of what the doctor says. None of them will pay for a prescription drug when there is a completely different OTC drug. Example: they won't cover ANY medication for acid reflux because Prilosec is available over the counter. They will no longer cover Lipitor for cholesterol because there is some other generic available ..... even though it's the generic of another drug and not Lipitor. |
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ejward
Joined: Jan 06, 2003
Posts: 7054
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:39 pm Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
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| Quote: |
Ask a Canadian about their health care program especially if they live close to the states.
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I have. I have relatives in Canada. They're happy with their health care. In fact, I'm almost in Canada right now .... I'll ask around. |
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Gezzer
Joined: Oct 19, 2008
Posts: 660
Location: Buckinghamshire England
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 8:47 pm Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
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| ejward wrote: |
| Quote: |
Ask a Canadian about their health care program especially if they live close to the states.
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I have. I have relatives in Canada. They're happy with their health care. In fact, I'm almost in Canada right now .... I'll ask around. |
 …
i believe that the health care service in Canada is very good …
i do not think that the US understands the NHS in the UK
it is far removed from a socialist system … |
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xavierx
Joined: Nov 06, 2004
Posts: 5421
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 8:56 pm Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
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| ejward wrote: |
| tony7914 wrote: |
@ej
| Quote: |
| Why would i pay for private insurance too? If the universal health plan is done right, there would be no need for supplemental insurance. People are just assuming that it will be done wrong. Medicare has covered everything my Mother has ever needed. She's never been rejected for anything. They even pay for brand name drugs when the doctor says it's needed. I'm forced to use generics no matter what my doctor says. |
Most insurance will pay for name brands if the doctor can show they are needed. If there is a generic available for the same drug your better off getting it as it will be cheaper and is the same thing. |
Most? This is based on what? In the past 3 years there have been 4 different plans with my employer. None of them will pay for a brand name when there is a generic available regardless of what the doctor says. None of them will pay for a prescription drug when there is a completely different OTC drug. Example: they won't cover ANY medication for acid reflux because Prilosec is available over the counter. They will no longer cover Lipitor for cholesterol because there is some other generic available ..... even though it's the generic of another drug and not Lipitor. |
It may not be obvious, ejward, but you can't judge all plans in the country based on what you have. States put different restrictions on insurance companies. For example, I have better coverage here in VA than I ever did in PA, and pay less. This is why competition would be a good thing. I agree, however, that we'd need to find a way to make sure they don't all move to one state like the Credit Card companies did.
For me, no one has come up with a good plan. I like McCain's the best, but it still needs work. But I'll fight any plan that puts Congress in control - they very rarely get anything right, and health care shouldn't be an experiment. |
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tony7914
Joined: Dec 24, 2004
Posts: 4961
Location: Peru Indiana
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:30 pm Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
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| Gezzer wrote: |
| ejward wrote: |
| Quote: |
Ask a Canadian about their health care program especially if they live close to the states.
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I have. I have relatives in Canada. They're happy with their health care. In fact, I'm almost in Canada right now .... I'll ask around. |
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i believe that the health care service in Canada is very good …
I have friends who live there who would disagree with you on that.
i do not think that the US understands the NHS in the UK
it is far removed from a socialist system …
It's been awhile since my mother or I have been home but we still have family living in the UK and Hong Kong and speak to them regularly. NHS is funded by the tax payer, those taxes are high and the quality of service is lower than it is in the states, wait times are 6 months or more for elective surgeries and you have little choice of care. No thanks mate
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Gezzer
Joined: Oct 19, 2008
Posts: 660
Location: Buckinghamshire England
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:35 pm Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
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| tony7914 wrote: |
| Gezzer wrote: |
| ejward wrote: |
| Quote: |
Ask a Canadian about their health care program especially if they live close to the states.
|
I have. I have relatives in Canada. They're happy with their health care. In fact, I'm almost in Canada right now .... I'll ask around. |
…
i believe that the health care service in Canada is very good …
I have friends who live there who would disagree with you on that.
i do not think that the US understands the NHS in the UK
it is far removed from a socialist system …
It's been awhile since my mother or I have been home but we still have family living in the UK and Hong Kong and speak to them regularly. NHS is funded by the tax payer, those taxes are high and the quality of service is lower than it is in the states, wait times are 6 months or more for elective surgeries and you have little choice of care. No thanks mate
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they may wait, dependent on area or region, but there is no worry about costs or payment …  … |
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tony7914
Joined: Dec 24, 2004
Posts: 4961
Location: Peru Indiana
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:40 pm Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
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| ejward wrote: |
| Quote: |
Ask a Canadian about their health care program especially if they live close to the states.
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I have. I have relatives in Canada. They're happy with their health care. In fact, I'm almost in Canada right now .... I'll ask around. |
I missed this one.
Glad your relatives are happy with it ej. Do they buy supplemental insurance? Some good friends I ride with live a couple hours north of Michigan, one lady has degenerative disk disease and it's taken over a year from the point her doctor diagnosed it to waiting to see if she can get the surgery she needs. It took months to get a referral to a specialist and months more to get an MRI of course this process could have gone faster if she would have bought supplemental coverage. |
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xavierx
Joined: Nov 06, 2004
Posts: 5421
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:44 pm Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
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| Gezzer wrote: |
| they may wait, dependent on area or region, but there is no worry about costs or payment … … |
Only because they pay for it their entire lives via taxes. |
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tony7914
Joined: Dec 24, 2004
Posts: 4961
Location: Peru Indiana
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:45 pm Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
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| Gezzer wrote: |
| tony7914 wrote: |
| Gezzer wrote: |
| ejward wrote: |
| Quote: |
Ask a Canadian about their health care program especially if they live close to the states.
|
I have. I have relatives in Canada. They're happy with their health care. In fact, I'm almost in Canada right now .... I'll ask around. |
…
i believe that the health care service in Canada is very good …
I have friends who live there who would disagree with you on that.
i do not think that the US understands the NHS in the UK
it is far removed from a socialist system …
It's been awhile since my mother or I have been home but we still have family living in the UK and Hong Kong and speak to them regularly. NHS is funded by the tax payer, those taxes are high and the quality of service is lower than it is in the states, wait times are 6 months or more for elective surgeries and you have little choice of care. No thanks mate
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they may wait, dependent on area or region, but there is no worry about costs or payment … … |
That's because everyone pays for it in higher taxes. How much is petrol right now? What percentage of your paycheck is tax? |
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Gezzer
Joined: Oct 19, 2008
Posts: 660
Location: Buckinghamshire England
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:54 pm Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
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| xavierx wrote: |
| Gezzer wrote: |
| they may wait, dependent on area or region, but there is no worry about costs or payment … … |
Only because they pay for it their entire lives via taxes. |
yes we do, and do it willingly that is the price we pay for the betterment of all that are ill and require treatment and the reassurance that if i am in need of treatment then i will get it without worry of costs, its called insurance … |
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CowpokeBob
Joined: Feb 07, 2006
Posts: 1501
Location: South Carolina, USA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 10:20 pm Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
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| Bottom line for me is this. There are plenty of countries providing universal health care and yet the USA with its capitalistic health care system is still the greatest country around. Don't figure. If health care is so great elsewhere then do like Ken and go there. I don't want the government forcing me to pay for your healthcare ej just because you have lousy coverage. Or making me pay for anyone else'scoverage either. |
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CowpokeBob
Joined: Feb 07, 2006
Posts: 1501
Location: South Carolina, USA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 11:40 pm Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
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| Gezzer wrote: |
| xavierx wrote: |
| Gezzer wrote: |
| they may wait, dependent on area or region, but there is no worry about costs or payment … … |
Only because they pay for it their entire lives via taxes. |
yes we do, and do it willingly that is the price we pay for the betterment of all that are ill and require treatment and the reassurance that if i am in need of treatment then i will get it without worry of costs, its called insurance … |
Umm, no its called socialism. From each according to his ability to each according to his need. The problem is that it always falls on too few to provide for too many. Even though many of the "needy" could provide for themselves. Again, no thanks! |
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ejward
Joined: Jan 06, 2003
Posts: 7054
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 11:20 am Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
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| xavierx wrote: |
| Gezzer wrote: |
| they may wait, dependent on area or region, but there is no worry about costs or payment … … |
Only because they pay for it their entire lives via taxes. |
just like all of the stuff I mentioned that we all pay for now but may never use. |
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ejward
Joined: Jan 06, 2003
Posts: 7054
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 11:22 am Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
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| tony7914 wrote: |
| Gezzer wrote: |
| tony7914 wrote: |
| Gezzer wrote: |
| ejward wrote: |
| Quote: |
Ask a Canadian about their health care program especially if they live close to the states.
|
I have. I have relatives in Canada. They're happy with their health care. In fact, I'm almost in Canada right now .... I'll ask around. |
…
i believe that the health care service in Canada is very good …
I have friends who live there who would disagree with you on that.
i do not think that the US understands the NHS in the UK
it is far removed from a socialist system …
It's been awhile since my mother or I have been home but we still have family living in the UK and Hong Kong and speak to them regularly. NHS is funded by the tax payer, those taxes are high and the quality of service is lower than it is in the states, wait times are 6 months or more for elective surgeries and you have little choice of care. No thanks mate
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they may wait, dependent on area or region, but there is no worry about costs or payment … … |
That's because everyone pays for it in higher taxes. How much is petrol right now? What percentage of your paycheck is tax? |
Ok. So, raise my taxes and I will no longer have a health insurance premium. At the rate it's been going, it's not going to be long before my healthcare cost is more than my federal taxes anyway. |
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ejward
Joined: Jan 06, 2003
Posts: 7054
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 11:28 am Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
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| CowpokeBob wrote: |
| Bottom line for me is this. There are plenty of countries providing universal health care and yet the USA with its capitalistic health care system is still the greatest country around. Don't figure. If health care is so great elsewhere then do like Ken and go there. I don't want the government forcing me to pay for your healthcare ej just because you have lousy coverage. Or making me pay for anyone else'scoverage either. |
That's the whole point. you are paying for other's coverage NOW. You are paying for Medicaide for people on welfare. You are paying for those that go to the hospital with no insurance. You are paying by way of higher prices on all things medical. You're insurance company is paying a higher cost and passing those costs on to you and your employer. Do you think your employer is just eating that cost? No, they are paying for it by taking from wages. That's why pays have remained flat for years. You may not want the government forcing you to pay for others but, that's the way it is now. At least with universal heath, you would know what you are paying and what you're getting. |
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ejward
Joined: Jan 06, 2003
Posts: 7054
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 11:31 am Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
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| CowpokeBob wrote: |
| Gezzer wrote: |
| xavierx wrote: |
| Gezzer wrote: |
| they may wait, dependent on area or region, but there is no worry about costs or payment … … |
Only because they pay for it their entire lives via taxes. |
yes we do, and do it willingly that is the price we pay for the betterment of all that are ill and require treatment and the reassurance that if i am in need of treatment then i will get it without worry of costs, its called insurance … |
Umm, no its called socialism. From each according to his ability to each according to his need. The problem is that it always falls on too few to provide for too many. Even though many of the "needy" could provide for themselves. Again, no thanks! |
So what do you call Social Security? What do you call the welfare system? What do you call our entire progressive tax system? If theose are not Socialism then, could you please explain to me what is? At least universal health would be a lot fairer than those systems. Everyone puts in and everyone gets the benefit. |
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CowpokeBob
Joined: Feb 07, 2006
Posts: 1501
Location: South Carolina, USA
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 11:46 am Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
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| ejward wrote: |
That's the whole point. you are paying for other's coverage NOW. You are paying for Medicaide for people on welfare. You are paying for those that go to the hospital with no insurance. You are paying by way of higher prices on all things medical. You're insurance company is paying a higher cost and passing those costs on to you and your employer. Do you think your employer is just eating that cost? No, they are paying for it by taking from wages. That's why pays have remained flat for years. You may not want the government forcing you to pay for others but, that's the way it is now. At least with universal heath, you would know what you are paying and what you're getting. |
Okay, your right. I'm paying for medicaid (and medicare) for people that haven't paid for it themselves. I guess I'm paying for all those folks going to the hospital with no insurance, too. As for the rest, our insurance company just dropped its rates by about a third the beginning of this year becasue as a group we haven't had a high incidence of illness or emergency care, so I guess they are passing the savings on as well. And my employer raised my salary just last month so maybe the insurance company is passing a little something to them too. What I don't want is the government dictating to me what I can and can't do. But I have reached a point in life where I don't need to work so hard so I wouldn't mind cutting back on work and wages enough to fall below the tax cut off point. I can raise enough of the green stuff to keep myself going with no problem or govenment interference. And my universal free health care really would be free then. |
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tony7914
Joined: Dec 24, 2004
Posts: 4961
Location: Peru Indiana
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| Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 12:48 pm Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
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| ejward wrote: |
| tony7914 wrote: |
@ej
| Quote: |
| Why would i pay for private insurance too? If the universal health plan is done right, there would be no need for supplemental insurance. People are just assuming that it will be done wrong. Medicare has covered everything my Mother has ever needed. She's never been rejected for anything. They even pay for brand name drugs when the doctor says it's needed. I'm forced to use generics no matter what my doctor says. |
Most insurance will pay for name brands if the doctor can show they are needed. If there is a generic available for the same drug your better off getting it as it will be cheaper and is the same thing. |
Most? This is based on what? In the past 3 years there have been 4 different plans with my employer. None of them will pay for a brand name when there is a generic available regardless of what the doctor says. None of them will pay for a prescription drug when there is a completely different OTC drug. Example: they won't cover ANY medication for acid reflux because Prilosec is available over the counter. They will no longer cover Lipitor for cholesterol because there is some other generic available ..... even though it's the generic of another drug and not Lipitor. |
Not sure how things work in your state but most insurance we have here will pay for a brand name drug if it's the only one available such as welbutrin if there is a generic available they will only pay for that which isn't a big deal because it's the same thing and usually cheaper. Most insurances will also cover a brand name if your doctor can show them that only the brand name will work, you still have to pay the co-pay though but then you have a co-pay with any drug. Most insurance companies won't pay for OTC medications, this is nothing new. If your doctor wants you to take that and you have to have something prescribed then you should ask him to choose a different drug as many are available for GERD that are not OTC. |
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ejward
Joined: Jan 06, 2003
Posts: 7054
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| Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 10:44 pm Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
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| CowpokeBob wrote: |
| ejward wrote: |
That's the whole point. you are paying for other's coverage NOW. You are paying for Medicaide for people on welfare. You are paying for those that go to the hospital with no insurance. You are paying by way of higher prices on all things medical. You're insurance company is paying a higher cost and passing those costs on to you and your employer. Do you think your employer is just eating that cost? No, they are paying for it by taking from wages. That's why pays have remained flat for years. You may not want the government forcing you to pay for others but, that's the way it is now. At least with universal heath, you would know what you are paying and what you're getting. |
As for the rest, our insurance company just dropped its rates by about a third the beginning of this year becasue as a group we haven't had a high incidence of illness or emergency care, so I guess they are passing the savings on as well. |
So what if your plan had 300 million mostly healthy people in it to share the cost. Do you think your rate would go down even more? |
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