Got a cell-phone? Feds can search your house

 
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dobbie6060



Joined: Aug 24, 2007
Posts: 2040



PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 6:40 pm    Post subject: Got a cell-phone? Feds can search your house

[HTH can some still insist this is a free country?]

http://www.boingboing.net/2009/05/20/got-a-cell-phon-fcc.html

Got a cell-phone? FCC claims the right to search your house
by Cory Doctorow

The FCC claims that its powers to inspect radio equipment in order to catch pirate radio stations means that it can also enter and search any home that has a WiFi access point, a cordless phone, a baby monitor, or a cell phone.
"Anything using RF energy -- we have the right to inspect it to make sure it is not causing interference," says FCC spokesman David Fiske. That includes devices like Wi-Fi routers that use unlicensed spectrum, Fiske says.

The FCC claims it derives its warrantless search power from the Communications Act of 1934, though the constitutionality of the claim has gone untested in the courts.
That's largely because the FCC had little to do with average citizens for most of the last 75 years,
when home transmitters were largely reserved to ham-radio operators and CB-radio aficionados.
But in 2009, nearly every household in the United States has multiple devices that use radio waves and fall under the FCC's purview, making the commission's claimed authority ripe for a court challenge.

"It is a major stretch beyond case law to assert that authority with respect to a private home, which is at the heart of the Fourth Amendment's protection against unreasonable search and seizure," says Electronic Frontier Foundation lawyer Lee Tien.
"When it is a private home and when you are talking about an over-powered Wi-Fi antenna
-- the idea they could just go in is honestly quite bizarre."
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CowpokeBob



Joined: Feb 07, 2006
Posts: 1506

Location: South Carolina, USA

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 10:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Got a cell-phone? Feds can search your house [Login to view extended thread Info.]

dobbie6060 wrote:
[HTH can some still insist this is a free country?]

http://www.boingboing.net/2009/05/20/got-a-cell-phon-fcc.html

Got a cell-phone? FCC claims the right to search your house
by Cory Doctorow

The FCC claims that its powers to inspect radio equipment in order to catch pirate radio stations means that it can also enter and search any home that has a WiFi access point, a cordless phone, a baby monitor, or a cell phone.
"Anything using RF energy -- we have the right to inspect it to make sure it is not causing interference," says FCC spokesman David Fiske. That includes devices like Wi-Fi routers that use unlicensed spectrum, Fiske says.

The FCC claims it derives its warrantless search power from the Communications Act of 1934, though the constitutionality of the claim has gone untested in the courts.
That's largely because the FCC had little to do with average citizens for most of the last 75 years,
when home transmitters were largely reserved to ham-radio operators and CB-radio aficionados.
But in 2009, nearly every household in the United States has multiple devices that use radio waves and fall under the FCC's purview, making the commission's claimed authority ripe for a court challenge.

"It is a major stretch beyond case law to assert that authority with respect to a private home, which is at the heart of the Fourth Amendment's protection against unreasonable search and seizure," says Electronic Frontier Foundation lawyer Lee Tien.
"When it is a private home and when you are talking about an over-powered Wi-Fi antenna
-- the idea they could just go in is honestly quite bizarre."


That's one I hadn't heard of before but it is hardly the only way law enforcement can enter your home to conduct a search without a warrant.
There are quite a few methods for law enforcement to use to conduct a search of a person or property without a warrant. A few examples that spring to mind are what is known as a wingspan search, a fugitive search, or my favorite, the one that allows an officer to search a motor vehicle or mobile home that has the wheels still attached under it with just reasonable suspicion because of the flight risk just to name a few. It always amuses me when folks get wind of this and the shock that follows. Part of why I respond the way I do when the issue of privacy comes up.

However the alarm over this is overdone. Where there seems to be some confusion is in what exactly can be done to you in such a search Like your example of the FCC most of these types of searches are very limited in scope. The 4th amendment protects you from unreasonable search and seizure, not from any search and seizure. What that means in practical terms is that law enforcement cannot search your premises or person for no reason at all and if they find something then prosecute you for it. There must be at a minimum what is known as "reasonable suspicion" of a crime or criminal activity or in the case of a warrant search "probable cause" which is a much higher standard. Taking the FCC example and putting it in very very simple terms if they were to search your home to inspect your Rf devices and found say drugs, pornography or stolen goods unrelated to any electronic equipment in your home they could not use any of that evidence against you because it was not the subject of the initial search nor was it specifcally listed on a search warrant. They couldn't come back with a warrant later and arrest you for it either though they could get a warrant and conduct a search for "new" evidence based on the find. It would not stop the seizure of the contraband (after all it is illegal goods) but neither could you be prosecuted for it. That's putting it in awfully simplistic terms but maybe sheds some light on the matter.
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kenmabmcc



Joined: Nov 20, 2003
Posts: 8249

Location: Dunedin, New Zealand.

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 11:21 pm    Post subject: Big Brother is Listening [Login to view extended thread Info.]

Cell Phone Listening Devices
Quote:
In addition to showing location, cell phone listening devices also let you listen in. The most advanced device works just like a regular cell phone. Your teen will get incoming calls, have a phone book, make calls, and even sometimes have a camera on the phone. The only difference is that you have the power to listen in. You dial a secret secondary number that gives you access to the phone. You can hear the conversation over the phone (and record it) or you can activate the microphone on the phone that picks up the sounds in the room.


This could be placed on any cell phone, not just the childrens...

Wink
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CowpokeBob



Joined: Feb 07, 2006
Posts: 1506

Location: South Carolina, USA

PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 11:08 am    Post subject: Re: Big Brother is Listening [Login to view extended thread Info.]

kenmabmcc wrote:
Cell Phone Listening Devices
Quote:
In addition to showing location, cell phone listening devices also let you listen in. The most advanced device works just like a regular cell phone. Your teen will get incoming calls, have a phone book, make calls, and even sometimes have a camera on the phone. The only difference is that you have the power to listen in. You dial a secret secondary number that gives you access to the phone. You can hear the conversation over the phone (and record it) or you can activate the microphone on the phone that picks up the sounds in the room.


This could be placed on any cell phone, not just the childrens...

Wink


Yep. There is a bit of a fuss being made over this right now. There are also ways to disable the tracking and listening devices but how is all this related to the search and seizure question of the original poster.

Or were you just casting about for strings to pluck like you usually do?
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micker377



Joined: May 27, 2005
Posts: 1059



PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 10:05 pm    Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.]

to CowpokeBob
"Taking the FCC example and putting it in very very simple terms if they were to search your home to inspect your Rf devices and found say drugs, pornography or stolen goods unrelated to any electronic equipment in your home they could not use any of that evidence against you because it was not the subject of the initial search nor was it specifcally listed on a search warrant. They couldn't come back with a warrant later and arrest you for it either though they could get a warrant and conduct a search for "new" evidence based on the find. It would not stop the seizure of the contraband (after all it is illegal goods) but neither could you be prosecuted for it."

Unfortunately, that is not true. Just last week, here in California, there was a Police response to a "domestic". While there, the police saw marijuana "laying in clear view", so no warrant was necessary to arrest the inhabitants of the house for possession!
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xavierx



Joined: Nov 06, 2004
Posts: 5438



PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 10:32 pm    Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.]

The FCC aren't the police. Big difference.

As anyone bothered to read the 2005 FCC policy that started this whole story?
http://www.fcc.gov/eb/otherinfo/inspect.html
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micker377



Joined: May 27, 2005
Posts: 1059



PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 8:58 pm    Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.]

In reply to xavierx
Good idea!
"As anyone bothered to read the 2005 FCC policy that started this whole story?
http://www.fcc.gov/eb/otherinfo/inspect.html", as the preceding posts were mixing the activities of the FCC with activities of Law Enforcement Officers.
That's what I was referring to: the posts on Police search warrants.
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CowpokeBob



Joined: Feb 07, 2006
Posts: 1506

Location: South Carolina, USA

PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 7:32 pm    Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.]

micker377 wrote:
In reply to xavierx
Good idea!
"As anyone bothered to read the 2005 FCC policy that started this whole story?
http://www.fcc.gov/eb/otherinfo/inspect.html", as the preceding posts were mixing the activities of the FCC with activities of Law Enforcement Officers.
That's what I was referring to: the posts on Police search warrants.


I agree there is a big difference between the FCC and regular law enforcement. I was addressing mickers concerns about the law as it applies to improper searches and seizures in general.
Mickers if your referring to your reply to me then you are still wrong.
Quote:
Unfortunately, that is not true. Just last week, here in California, there was a Police response to a "domestic". While there, the police saw marijuana "laying in clear view", so no warrant was necessary to arrest the inhabitants of the house for possession!

In this example the police were apparently called to the residence because of a domestic disturbance. (ie: they were responding to a call and did not simply show up on thier own) Once they arrived they saw drugs in plain sight ( no search required) so yes they had every right to make an arrest. Being stupid doesn't make you immune from arrest and as you said. In that case no search was required.
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