New Tower Case??

Papirrin · Joined: Dec 27, 2008 Posts: 10

Hi,
I want to buy a new / bigger tower case because I want to add more HDDs to my computer, problem is that I don't know if it's as easy as choosing the one I like or if I have to take certain details into consideration. Some people told to check the power source and case, which generated more questions in my mind; so here goes:

- Since I want to add more HDDs to my computer, does that mean that I need more power voltage?

- New cases, also, have lots of fans and other stuff to cool down the system, do I need to power up all that? if so, I might need more voltage, right?

- If the voltage is higher than my current one, would that fry my motherboard or help me to power up all the new stuff I want to add?

- Would I have troubles if I transfer the power device my computer has to the new tower case?

- Someone also told me to check if the tower is compatible with my OS, because I can't buy a tower that is made for linux and not for windows, is that true?

I'm going to leave some of my computer specifications, just in case you guys need the information to give me a better answer.

Dell Dimension 4700
Manufacturer: Dell, Inc.
Type Media center
Product Form Factor Mini tower
Processor:
Type Intel Pentium 4 520 / 2.80 GHz
Mainboard:
Chipset type Intel 915G Express
Data bus speed 800 MHz
Power:
Power device type Power supply
Voltage Required AC 120/230 V
Power provided 305 Watt

All help will be highly appreciated, thank you.

drwho07 · Joined: Nov 29, 2007 Posts: 1508 Location: Central FL, USA

Very few cases come with power supplies that are large enough to run everything that people want to hang on them.

You keep saying "Voltage".....wrong word!
All the voltages, like +12v, +5v, -5v, etc., are set and regulated inside the power supply itself.
What you need to be interested in is the wattage that the PSU is capable of supplying to power everything that you want to run.
A 1000watt PSU won't put out any more Voltage than a 300watt supply, so don't worry about a large supply hurting your motherboard.

For a large case with many fans, and multiple hard drives, you should be looking for a power supply in the 650 to 850 watt range.

You say you want more hard drives, but have you set down a plan as to why you think you need more drives and just what you want each drive to do? Maybe discuss that with a computer tech before you jump in and do it.

The more drives you have, the more power you need, and the more heat you're going to produce that must be gotten rid of. Then there's the question of Drive Maintenance.

I have three drives, 10 extra cooling fans and an "Antec Earthwatts 650" power supply.
The Earthwatts 650 is more than capable of supplying my power needs.

With multiple hard drives you need to space them out, never stack them, so they can get cooling air to prevent them from overheating.
I prevent my own HD's from overheating by affixing a two-fan cooler to each drive.
Then, the hot air inside the case needs to be exhausted out the back of the case. Air flow is critical on today's larger systems.

Shop carefully, shop smart and stay cool!

Happy New Year!
The Doctor Cool

Papirrin · Joined: Dec 27, 2008 Posts: 10

So, basically I can buy any tower I like;however, I should pay attention to the watts and get one with a power supply of 650 of 850 watts, right?

goretsky · Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 3:51 am Post subject:

[Fixed broken link. AG]

Hello,

Glad you could make it over from the #Chris IRC channel, Papirrin!

Inside a computer chassis, many of the devices (excluding the motherboard and components plugged into it) such as drives and fans run at fixed voltages, which might be 3.3, 5, 7 or 12 VDC. The volts supplied to a device are typically fixed, although it might vary for a fan in order to increase (or decrease) its speed. What makes a difference is the amount of watts available from the power supply to provide electricity to all these devices. An easy way to think of watts is as a volumetric measurement, like liters or gallons. The higher the amount of watts in a power supply, the more devices it can provide electricity to at once, just like a large water tank can supply water simultaneously to more houses.

The power supply which ships with the Dell Dimension 4700 is a 305 watt supply. This is fine for the components which ship with the computer (one optical drive, one hard disk drive, the motherboard with CPU and integrated video) but if you want to start adding more hardware such as hard disk drives or a more powerful video card, then you will want to look at getting a higher-wattage power supply for it. Having a higher-wattage power supply connected to the components in your computer will not damage them, as the devices inside your computer automatically draw the correct amount of watts from the power supply.

One thing about older Dell computers is that some of them use power supplies with proprietary connectors. From looking at this page of Dell's support manual and scrolling down to the section DC Power Connector P1 and comparing it to this pin out of a 24-pin ATX connector, it appears your Dell uses the standard pin out, so you can use a regular 24-pin ATX power supply in a tower case with it.

Tower cases typically have mounting points inside them for fans, and some of them come with fans pre-installed in some or all of the locations. Case fans typically have a small 3-pin power plug on them if they are meant to plug directly into a 3-pin power connector on the motherboard, or a larger 4-pin Molex connector on them if they are meant to plug directly into the power supply. Most fans do not consume an appreciable amount of watts. Typically, fans are oriented so they blow cool air into the chassis from the front and/or bottom of the case, and suck hot air out of the back and/or top of the case. This allows a constant stream of cool air to flow across the components inside, keeping them cool.

As for determining the number of watts provided by the power supply, that would depend on how many additional devices you want to place inside the computer.

A typical tower case just consists of very generic hardware and should be OS independent. The only electronics inside one are typically a small circuit board holding both the power and reset buttons, along with power and HDD activity LEDs, Some cases also have connectors for front or top mounted USB, FireWire and audio ports on them, which are also fairly standard.. Likewise for integrated memory card readers. The only component I can think of which might require OS support in the form of specific device drivers is an LCD or VFD display, which are provided on some high-end cases used for home theater PCs. Those typically have normal serial or USB connectors which attach to the motherboard or an expansion card, but require software in order to do things like display the name of a DVD or CD being played, or the processor utilization. I do not think you would have any trouble finding Windows device drivers for such a display, though.

One thing to keep in mind is that in a tower chassis, devices are typically mounted farther apart, which means longer cables may be needed inside the computer to connect them back to the motherboard. Internal data cables for hard disk drives and optical disc drives are not terribly expensive, though, and can probably be purchased from the same place you buy the tower case.

Regards,

Aryeh Goretsky

Papirrin · Joined: Dec 27, 2008 Posts: 10

hey, hi goretsky! Thanks for helping me in the IRC channel and in here too. All that information is really interesting and helpful. I just have one doubt about the power supply: since, I want to add 2 more hdd to have a total of 4, I may need to get 4 cooling fans also, one for each drive just as drwho07 said he has. So the higher the better, and a 850 watt should be powerful enough to power everything up, right?

In resume I should get:
24 pin ATX power supply
650 - 850 watt

micker377 · Joined: May 27, 2005 Posts: 988

850W will be more than enough! Just remember (as the Doctor will press), that a quality 400W supply will provide more operating power than a cheap 800W PSU! I'd stick to a quality supply like Antec.

goretsky · Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 5:20 pm Post subject:

Hello,

I would actually think that you'd be fine with a 650 watt power supply for four hard disk drives, an optical disk drive and the motherboard and its onboard components (RAM, CPU and so forth). If you are planning on adding even more hard disk drives, RAM or a new video card, then an 850 watt power supply might be something to investigate. Of course, if you get a good post-holiday deal on a good 850 watt power supply, go with it.

In addition to the Antec brand which Micker377 mentioned, Cooler Master, Corsair, OCZ/PC Power & Cooling, SeaSonic, Thermaltake and Zalman all make good power supplies.

Regards,

Aryeh Goretsky

drwho07 · Joined: Nov 29, 2007 Posts: 1508 Location: Central FL, USA

The last dozen or so computers that I have built all use the "Pac Man" case.
It's high enough to give me all the drive bays I need and it's deep enough, front to back, so I'm not having to move one thing out of the way to get to something else.
Everything just fits nicely.
If you never remember anything else about me remember this, "The Doctor likes to keep things simple!".

The second thing I always liked about the Pac-Man case was (is) the price.
I've never paid over $35 for one. Like most cases, I had to buy a heavier duty power supply.
Few people in the world have 13 fans inside their PC. But also, few people have a computer that stays at room temperature, ALL THE TIME!
Nothing in your PC should ever be HOT to the touch. If it is, something is wrong.

For many, many years now, I've used only AMD processors.
They run at a lower clock rate than Intel CPU's, while doing the same work.
So, running at a lower clock rate, they also draw less power and produce less heat.
All in all, using AMD processors has been a NO-Brainer.
I've used hundreds of them since the 486 days and I've never had cause to regret it..... even once.

The second absolute in my PC building has been to allow, or provide, ample cooling for every hard drive.
The old 3600 rpm drives (years ago) ran pretty cool. Even the 5400 rpm drives ran relatively cool. But when the drive speeds went up to 7200 rpm and even higher, they started running very hot indeed, especially under heavy work-loads.

My solution to HOT drives was to affix a Two-Fan cooler to every drive I install.
At just $3 per cooler, it ain't no big deal. Rolling Eyes

I now buy them by the dozen. Smile

The people who build the little coolers I use are pretty good at what they do, but they certainly are NOT air-flow engineers. I found that a cooler mounted directly to the bottom of the drive would not cool real well at all.
There was too much air for the space where it needed to escape the drive.
An "Air-Dam" resulted, between the fan blades and the Hard Drive. Cooling suffered, as a result. So my fix was to space the little cooler away from the drive about 1/4" to promote increased air flow. The resulting drive with cooler looks like this:

The 1/4" spacers are the same ones used to mount a motherboard into the case.

Now, with increased air-flow, the little drive will stay at ambient air temperatures.

Some cases have very poor drive bay configurations.
I've dealt with this problem for years. Dell is probably the worlds worse.

One friend in Arkansas came up with this novel way of mounting his hard drive, with his two-fan cooler attached.

<<-- click to expand

As I got the story, he secured the drive to the base plate with pink duct tape.
Don't laugh......as you can see in the picture, it made a great and very colorful installation. And, the drive stays as cool as the computer's base plate.
The RED fan in this picture is actually the CPU cooling fan.

In my own 'Pac-Man' case, I have three drives installed.
One is in the upper 5.25" drive bay, mounted with side spacers, as shown here.

<<-- click to expand

And my other two drives are located in the lower drive bays, spaced apart to promote cooling.
Here is the case with just one HD installed in the lower drive bays.
When I installed the second drive in this bay, I installed it in a lower slot, one slot away from the upper drive.

<<-- click to expand

Then, to get rid of all that heat from the drives, I mounted one air intake fan in the front panel in front of the upper drive and two case fans in the lower steel case to provide fresh air to the lower two drives.

<<-- click to expand

I cut out the metal grill over the two lower fans to enhance air flow.

Besides the exhaust fan in the PSU, there is another 5" fan mounted in the back panel to assure good air flow thru the case.

Finally when it's all buttoned up, my little PC looks like this:

<<-- click to expand

The cup of coffee is optional. Rolling Eyes

Well, that's my little story. I hope it's been of some help to someone.....
someplace. Wink

Happy New Year Mates!
The Doctor Cool

Papirrin · Joined: Dec 27, 2008 Posts: 10

Wow, thanks everyone for your opinions and suggestions I have learned a lot, I highly appreciate it .

I was searching in ebay for a power supply, but I couldn't find any of the brands that miker377 and Goretsky recommended.
Do you guys know a good web where I can get one? Because I went to a local electronic store here in California also, and the prices for a power supply were around a hundred for a 850 watt. Ebay has cheap 850 power supplies, but they are probably not that good.

drwho07, I have to say that I'm impressed by all the modifications you have done to your computer, I got a question for you though:
where do you buy the two-fan coolers at $3?

The information is pretty valuable too. I would have never guessed that by separating the fan a little from the hdd, it would cool the hdd better. Also, I'm not going to lie, I did laugh when I read where and how your friend put the hdd, but I realized that it's pretty cool as well. He solved the space problem just like that, and those LEDs fans make the tower look even better, awesome!

Thanks again everyone, and ! ! Happy New Year ! !

drwho07 · Joined: Nov 29, 2007 Posts: 1508 Location: Central FL, USA

For the fans:

http://www.cwc-group.com/hadrco.html

Scroll down the page to the "Base Coolers".

This company has MANY PC accessories at really great prices.
Look around their web site.

Also, you might check out a "Comp USA" store, if you have one in your area.
They also sell via their web site.

I just picked up another Antec Earthwatts 650 for $49.95 on sale at a store in Orlando. So look around..... after Christmas sales abound.

Good Luck and Happy New Year!

The Doctor Cool

goretsky · Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:56 am Post subject:

Hello,

Here are some online stores I have had good experiences purchasing from:

Directron - located in TX, not the cheapest, but often sells things no on else does
mWave - located in CA
NewEgg - located in CA, often the least expensive, excellent customer service
ProVantage - located in OH, sometimes the least expensive
Triangle Cables - located in NC, for cables
ZipZoomFly - located in CA, usually inexpensive

The following online stores I have not purchased from, but I am told offer good service:

CyberGuys
Monoprice - located in CA, for cables
NCIX

I have included the physical locations for a few of the online stores so you will have an idea of where they ship from--sometimes it is easier to buy something that is a little more expensive from a nearby reseller then it is to order the part from across the country and have to pay more for shipping, especially if you need it overnight.

Once you have decided on a particular model of a computer part, do a little bit of searching around to see who sells it for the least amount. Here are a few price comparison shopping engines you can use to search for the lowest price:

Froogle (by Google)
PriceWatch
RetailMeNot - excellent site for coupons
TagJag - Chris Pirillo's coupons
TechBargains

Sites like these often list the reputation of an online seller, as well as the number of reviews. I often will purchase from a store which charges a little bit more if their reputation is better. For me, the peace of mind is worth a few extra dollars, especially if I may need to return something.

Regards,

Aryeh Goretsky

drwho07 · Joined: Nov 29, 2007 Posts: 1508 Location: Central FL, USA

Whenever possible I like to buy computer parts from local suppliers that I know and trust. My favorite is a Computer Wholesale house, in Orlando, that only sells to licensed computer dealers.

I've never done the "Froogle" thing before but when I did a search for "Antec Earthwatts 650" (PC Power Supply) I found a huge variance in prices from $59 to way over $100.
The day after I bought my last one for $49.95, at "Smart Guys Computers" in Longwood, FL, the price went back up to $99.95.
I think that's about the same price that "Comp USA" was asking for the same thing.

So, I'd say anything under $100 would be a good price for that PSU.
Getting it from a local dealer that you trust, would be a big bonus.

Doc Cool

zzron357 · Joined: Oct 14, 2004 Posts: 43

Hi Papirrin, I was looking at a Dell 4600 I have here. It seems to be the same case
as your 4700. You can mount 2 hard drives at bottom, and one up and under the
cd-dvd-rom drive. I wonder why you want more than 2 drives. The mother board can support 4 drives as is. 2 on primary ide cable and 2 on secondary ide cable.
There are add-in cards which can support more drives, but as you already know, space inside is limited. If you have 2 cdrom drives, then you must remove one to install that 3rd drive. If original drive is just too small, replace it with another.
DRWHO is an expert at cloning. A single dvd-rw can replace both dvdrom and cdrw
to free space on secondary ide. The 3rd drive may lose some speed on the 2nd ide.
A pair of 250 Gb drives would give you a lot more space than you have now. Put the old drive on the secondary ide just for backups.
The 4700 drive mounts are a simple L shaped piece of sheet metal. Some pc's may not have both brackets -- but they should be available somewhere. Dell is pretty good about shipping parts. Postage is more than the part cost at times. Hopefully your system has both brackets already. The manual shows the brackets and how to install the drives. If all you want is more storage space, you can get another (big) drive and mount it in an external usb drive case. It is portable, and the drive can be used internally if ever needed. And -- I always recommend partitioning all hard drives, for many reasons, but primarily to make back-ups and imaging easier.
If you go to a larger case, and move your mother board, check new power supply to be sure it has all the power connectors your present PS has. You may want
added SATA power and an SATA add-in card, so new drives can be SATA in addition to the ide (PATA) drive you now have.
Best wishes, ZZRON

Papirrin · Joined: Dec 27, 2008 Posts: 10

Hello everyone, thanks for the websites finding a pretty good power supply should be easy now.

I have been looking for my new tower, and I have decided that I'm going to buy the cooler master CM 690.
Here's some pictures of it:
CM6901
CM6902
CM6903
CM6904

The only problem I have right now is that last picture. Supposedly, those cables are the connections to the power button, reset button, and LED's in the front panel. But I don't know if I can connect that to my motherboard, my motherboard is very simple and I don't even know if it has enough space to connect all that. What do you guys think? Should I buy another case or can I make this work?

zzron357:
I want more hdd in my computer because the ones I have right now are only 80 GB each and they are full already. Online videogames, applications and stuff such as movies and mp3 consume more space now. I have been spending money in DVD disks for a while now, and I decided not to do that any more and get a bigger hdd instead. But I don't want to trow those other two hdd away yet, I can still use them to backup data or something else.

goretsky · Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 8:35 pm Post subject:

Hello,

According to this page of the Dell Dimension 4700 manual, the Front Panel I/O connector (labeled J9G2 on the motherboard) next to the two SATA connectors is where you connect the wiring from the new case. Unfortunately, I could not find the pin-ut for this connector, but perhaps if you ask on the Dell Forums someone can tell you.

Regards,

Aryeh Goretsky

Papirrin · Joined: Dec 27, 2008 Posts: 10

thanks for the suggestion goretsky, I'm going to ask in that forum.

OK, so i went to the dell forums and asked those guys and here's what they told me:
bweed6:
you will not be able to put your dell system into another case. the motherboard will not fit into standard atx cases without significant modding, and dell has never published the pin outs for the front IO panels of their systems.

So, I'm guessing that my motherboard pretty much sucks at this time and I'm thinking about buying a new motherboard, what do you guys think?

zzron357 · Joined: Oct 14, 2004 Posts: 43

Hi Papirrin,
I am a zero budget guy, who recycles pc's for seniors. I do the best I can with what I have at hand. I suspected there would be problems with MB and power. I would add drives to Dell. On the other hand, a dual or quad core cpu will run circles around the Dell, and I have always been happier with the pc's I made from scratch -- and I shake my head at the things the pc makers do to us, crapware and all. I am about to go downstairs and upgrade a golden oldie to Linux -- probably dual boot Ubuntu 8.10 and Puppy 412. Very best wishes, ZZRON

goretsky · Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:12 am Post subject:

Hello,

You can certainly buy new motherboard. If you are not planning on re-using any of the components from your Dell Dimension 4700 then you could consider building an entirely new system.

Another possibility might be to expand your Dell Dimension 4700 using hard disk drives mounted in external USB or FireWire enclosures.

Regards,

Aryeh Goretsky

Papirrin · Joined: Dec 27, 2008 Posts: 10

Yeah, well expanding the computer sounds good, but I'd rather build my own system this time. That way I'll know exactly which components my pc has.

drwho07 · Joined: Nov 29, 2007 Posts: 1508 Location: Central FL, USA

I could make a few suggestions about the parts, but my first suggestion would be that none of them are from Dell. Wink

After building computers for 25 years, I finally gave it up when I retired three years ago.
Since then I've only built one system....... my own!

I'm so very impressed with this MSI motherboard and AMD Athlon 3800+ Dual Core processor, that if I was to build another system I'd go the same route again.
Maybe a little faster CPU the next time. Wink

If I live to be 100, I'll never use all the features on this mobo.

Good Luck!

The Doctor Cool