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CowpokeBob
Joined: Feb 07, 2006
Posts: 1501
Location: South Carolina, USA
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 Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:53 pm Post subject: Revolution or Embarrassment |
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| I've noticed an interesting phenomenom over time. A long time back this forum was dominated by conservative voices and a man by the name of Clinton was President. Then he was followed by a man named Bush ushering in an era of Liberal dominance. Now once again we find a Liberal in the White House and gradually the plethora of Liberal voices in defense of this Liberal President have been falling silent. All the while the Conservative voices have been slowly becoming more numerous.
All of which leads me to wonder just what the reason behind it all is. Could it be that we are witnessing Conservatives launching a growing Revolution against the bankrupt Liberal policies of the current President? Or is it embarassment on the part of those who supported the President and now find it harder and harder to mount any real defense of his actions? Or perhaps a need to dis-associate themselves from the President and his policies.
Is it maybe a mixture of both revolution and embarassment? Or is it perhaps just a case of being on top and therfore losing interest vs sour grapes? Whatever the reason it will be interesting to watch events unfold, both politcally and on this forum, in the coming months and years.
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Sgt Schultz
Joined: Dec 07, 2002
Posts: 7378
Location: St. Louis area
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| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:00 pm Post subject: Re: Revolution or Embarrassment [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
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| CowpokeBob wrote: |
| Or is it perhaps just a case of being on top and therfore losing interest vs sour grapes? Whatever the reason it will be interesting to watch events unfold, both politcally and on this forum, in the coming months and years. |
You know I was thinking this very same thing the other day about this place.
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tony7914
Joined: Dec 24, 2004
Posts: 4965
Location: Peru Indiana
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| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:06 pm Post subject: Re: Revolution or Embarrassment [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
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| Sgt Schultz wrote: |
| CowpokeBob wrote: |
| Or is it perhaps just a case of being on top and therfore losing interest vs sour grapes? Whatever the reason it will be interesting to watch events unfold, both politcally and on this forum, in the coming months and years. |
You know I was thinking this very same thing the other day about this place. |
I'm glad I'm not the only one to wonder about this. |
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Sgt Schultz
Joined: Dec 07, 2002
Posts: 7378
Location: St. Louis area
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| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:31 pm Post subject: Re: Revolution or Embarrassment [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
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| tony7914 wrote: |
| I'm glad I'm not the only one to wonder about this. |
There were two distinct choices in the last election. I know many of you here don't care for Obama but the nation picked him over McCain. You're not happy about the outcome and I understand how you feel. I expect you to make your voices heard more loudly because of it.
Also, I've said it before here and I'll say it again: just because I voted for Obama doesn't mean I agree with everything he's doing or going to do. I thought he was the better choice for various reason and I stick by that decision.
I also think it is way too early for anyone to be predicting how the Obama presidency is going to turn out. He's been in office 1.5 months now. Things don't suddenly change or stop on a dime within the government. The economy doesn't either. The momentum downward had been going on well before he took office. Has he made it worse? That is certainly up to debate and I'm sure we will. But the economy will eventually start improving and then we'll end up debating who's responsible for it or why it isn't happening fast enough. Some things will never change. |
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tony7914
Joined: Dec 24, 2004
Posts: 4965
Location: Peru Indiana
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| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:51 pm Post subject: Re: Revolution or Embarrassment [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
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| Sgt Schultz wrote: |
| tony7914 wrote: |
| I'm glad I'm not the only one to wonder about this. |
There were two distinct choices in the last election. I know many of you here don't care for Obama but the nation picked him over McCain. You're not happy about the outcome and I understand how you feel. I expect you to make your voices heard more loudly because of it.
Also, I've said it before here and I'll say it again: just because I voted for Obama doesn't mean I agree with everything he's doing or going to do. I thought he was the better choice for various reason and I stick by that decision.
I also think it is way too early for anyone to be predicting how the Obama presidency is going to turn out. He's been in office 1.5 months now. Things don't suddenly change or stop on a dime within the government. The economy doesn't either. The momentum downward had been going on well before he took office. Has he made it worse? That is certainly up to debate and I'm sure we will. But the economy will eventually start improving and then we'll end up debating who's responsible for it or why it isn't happening fast enough. Some things will never change. |
A very large part of this country didn't vote for him because we could see where this was going before the election.
I don't think it's to early to start predicting how this administration is going to turn out sarge, in his first 1.5 months he's blown how many trillions of dollars? He's turned a blind eye to a budget with around 9000 earmarks breaking another promise he made, he put a tax cheat in charge of the treasury and he's well on his way to making this country an extension of west Europe, lets not forget his cap and trade idea either, while that may make the Eco friendly crowd happy it is going to cause a lot of unnecessary hurt if it survives. So far he seems to be doing a great job of bankrupting us.
If you ask me what's going on now will further divide the country and will do more harm than good, I guess time will tell. |
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Sgt Schultz
Joined: Dec 07, 2002
Posts: 7378
Location: St. Louis area
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| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:59 pm Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
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| What do you think John McCain would be doing right now in response to the economy? |
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CowpokeBob
Joined: Feb 07, 2006
Posts: 1501
Location: South Carolina, USA
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:54 am Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
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| Sgt Schultz wrote: |
| What do you think John McCain would be doing right now in response to the economy? |
That's a valid question. My reponse is the same as it has been repeatedly in the past month or so "I don't know and it is not relevant". McCain didn't win. Asking that is no different than asking me what I think Hillary Clinton would be doing, or Mike Huickabee, or Ron Paul, or John Edwards, or the Queen of England or anyone else for that matter. It's a question I've seen alot in response to any criticism of Barrack Obama who won by the way and is supposed to be doing something about all this as oppossed to the others. And that's another point of curiosity. Why is it whenever there is criticism of Obama rather than try to defend, justify, or even explain his actions the immediate response from his supporters is to either deflect the question to another person or in another direction or to claim its just too early to judge him. And yes, I realize some on the "right' do the same thing in response to criticism. It just seems to me like an excuse to avoid the issue rather than answering the criticisms and it implies that there is no defense.
As for the election I'm not so sure there was two clear choices. For me it was more like a bad choice and a terrible choice. And I am very unhappy about it. Very unhappy! But I don't view my criticism of Obama as sour grapes either. I made it clear long before the outcome of the election was settled that I didn't like the policies or direction I saw Obama wanting to take the country and now that he has won and is leading the country down that path all my worst fears of the man are being confirmed. Also I'm not trying to predict how the Obama presidency will turn out. It is far too early for that. I am talking about right now and the growing mess I see as a direct result of both his actions to date and his inactions to date. He has acted to make things worse by his irresponsible over spending while doing nothing to remedy the financial crises that we are told is at the root of this mess. I'm tired of being lied to. We've had three stimulus packages shoved down our throats so far after being told that the mortgage and credit crises were the cause of the financial collapse and if we didn't act right now to accept them it would mean the end for the country. Whether we bought into that or not we got them anyway and they have had absolutely no impact because all they really stimulated was the government to grow larger, not the financial markets. Now we are being told that health care cost are the cause of the recession not improving and we must accept health care reform in order to get out of this mess. What's going to be the next cause of the crises involving yet another trillion dollar solution? Education reform or alternative energy? No Sarge, I don't have sour grapes because Obama won. I have a serious case of being pissed off because of his Liberal agenda and the lies he is spouting in order to sneak it in on the American people. In short I view his policies as a threat to the country and yes, I hope he fails. Your right, eventually the economy will turn around but what could have been a recovery this year might well not occur for several years it looks like now under the Obama plan.
The original intent of my posting this topic was that I would have liked to see some of these hard core Obama fans debate the pros and cons of his policies since they think he is such a wise man and his policies of change so great rather than remind me of what Bush did or didn't do over the last eight years or what McCain might have done. That and I was curious about the sudden disappearance of these Obama supporters around here in the aftermath of his (in my opinion) failed policies. It's not a big deal though. There are enough of us on the conservative to libertarian sides to carry on the debate without them. |
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tony7914
Joined: Dec 24, 2004
Posts: 4965
Location: Peru Indiana
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:55 am Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
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| Sgt Schultz wrote: |
| What do you think John McCain would be doing right now in response to the economy? |
Good question, whatever he would have done in this situation I don't think it would be much the same as what Obama's doing.
I think you would find a lot more work to find a middle ground between the Whitehouse and Congress and not nearly as much pork and questionable mandates such as the cap and trade scheme.
The problem is McCain isn't in office, Obama is and the only one's who can stop some of this madness is the senate until 2010 at least. |
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Sgt Schultz
Joined: Dec 07, 2002
Posts: 7378
Location: St. Louis area
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:59 am Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
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| I'm just curious because what alternative have the Republicans really been offering? Other than some of them wanting to cut some of the earmarks that is about it. They got the tax cuts they were looking for though they weren't enough for some. And not all of those earmarks in the proposed legislation belong to the Democrats either. There is plenty of Republican pork in there. |
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tony7914
Joined: Dec 24, 2004
Posts: 4965
Location: Peru Indiana
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 1:08 am Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
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| Sgt Schultz wrote: |
| I'm just curious because what alternative have the Republicans really been offering? Other than some of them wanting to cut some of the earmarks that is about it. Not all of those earmarks in the proposed legislation belong to the Democrats either. There is plenty of Republican pork in there too. |
I never claimed McCain was another Regan, in fact I agree with CowpokeBob this election we got very bad and even worse as candidates.
Republicans are paying for the mistakes they made in the past now just as the Democrats did when they lost power and odds are your going to see a lot of new faces come 2010 and 2012 just like we did back then.
I'm beginning to think Obama wouldn't mind giving up a second term if he can dramatically alter the country in his first couple of years, undoing that would be hard to do and I think he knows that. |
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CowpokeBob
Joined: Feb 07, 2006
Posts: 1501
Location: South Carolina, USA
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 1:20 am Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
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| Sgt Schultz wrote: |
| I'm just curious because what alternative have the Republicans really been offering? Other than some of them wanting to cut some of the earmarks that is about it. They got the tax cuts they were looking for though they weren't enough for some. And not all of those earmarks in the proposed legislation belong to the Democrats either. There is plenty of Republican pork in there. |
As I recall the Republicans did put up an alternative plan to the Sitmulus Bill . It went nowhere and wasn't even allowed to be debated by the Democratic leadership. Yes there are Republican earmarks in the Ominbus Bill and they shouldn't be there. And no, they didn't get the tax cuts they wanted. They got the tax cuts Obama wanted.
All of which is completely and utterly redundant since there is a Democrat in the White House and Democrats in the majority of both houses of Congress. It is truly amazing to me sometimes. Why is it when the Republicans had a majority it was thier responsibility when things weren't going well, when the Democrats took back the Congress it was still the Republican president's responsibility when things went wrong and now that the Democrats are completely in power it is still the Republican minority's responsibilty to come up with a plan to stop the recession. That's your answer is it? The reason we are still in the mess we are in and it is getting worse is not because of the reckless behavior of the Democrats and Obama but because of a few minority Republicans? Are Democrats truly that helpless that they can't act without Republican help?
Thanks for proving my theory that the only defense of Obama that can be mustered is to attack the opposition and deflect attention away from him. |
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mommabear
Joined: Feb 20, 2003
Posts: 6319
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 5:53 am Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
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| Quote: |
| The original intent of my posting this topic was that I would have liked to see some of these hard core Obama fans debate the pros and cons of his policies since they think he is such a wise man and his policies of change so great rather than remind me of what Bush did or didn't do over the last eight years or what McCain might have done. That and I was curious about the sudden disappearance of these Obama supporters around here in the aftermath of his (in my opinion) failed policies. It's not a big deal though. There are enough of us on the conservative to libertarian sides to carry on the debate without them. |
Maybe they've "disappeared" because the hopes for the decent debates and discussion you say you want flew out the window the with constant, and I mean constant, posting of anything negative you could find about the Democrats and Obama.
Speaking for myself, I was hoping that we could all call a truce of some kind. We are not just Democrats or Republicans. The tone of our conduct towards each other has to change. Well, it hasn't on this board.
| Quote: |
| There are enough of us on the conservative to libertarian sides to carry on the debate without them. |
And I'm convinced that's just the way you want it, Cowpoke. Only don't kid yourself about that being any kind of "debate". |
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Sgt Schultz
Joined: Dec 07, 2002
Posts: 7378
Location: St. Louis area
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 9:16 am Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
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[quote="CowpokeBob"]
| Sgt Schultz wrote: |
As I recall the Republicans did put up an alternative plan to the Sitmulus Bill . It went nowhere and wasn't even allowed to be debated by the Democratic leadership. Yes there are Republican earmarks in the Ominbus Bill and they shouldn't be there. And no, they didn't get the tax cuts they wanted. They got the tax cuts Obama wanted.
All of which is completely and utterly redundant since there is a Democrat in the White House and Democrats in the majority of both houses of Congress. It is truly amazing to me sometimes. Why is it when the Republicans had a majority it was thier responsibility when things weren't going well, when the Democrats took back the Congress it was still the Republican president's responsibility when things went wrong and now that the Democrats are completely in power it is still the Republican minority's responsibilty to come up with a plan to stop the recession. That's your answer is it? The reason we are still in the mess we are in and it is getting worse is not because of the reckless behavior of the Democrats and Obama but because of a few minority Republicans? Are Democrats truly that helpless that they can't act without Republican help?
Thanks for proving my theory that the only defense of Obama that can be mustered is to attack the opposition and deflect attention away from him. |
No it isn't my answer nor has it been CowpokeBob but it is the one that you believe you think I said...which is wrong. Did I say that it was the Republican's responsibility to come up with a plan? No I didn't. I said what have they been offering? Have I placed all the responsibility for what has been happening to the economy on the Republicans over the last 8 years? No I haven't and I certainly haven't exonerated the Democrats either. This mess we're in right now is a combination of greed, politics and bad judgment. No one party has a monopoly on that and we certainly didn't get here overnight.
Is it your answer that all the problems right now are because of the Democrats? |
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bern
Joined: Mar 12, 2007
Posts: 1432
Location: ann arbor
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 10:18 am Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
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General Comment:
Alternative plans? I have one.
Everyone (not everyone, but lots of folks) assumes the government needs to "do something" and the bigger the better.
Those in power seem to be in a situation of "Don't just stand there, DO something!".
Business cycles are normal. Bubbles happen, for a variety of reasons. In this case aided and abetted by government "easy credit for a house" policies.
Maybe the plan should be: "Don't just do something, Stand there!"
But politicians feel like they have to do something, so they do. And it is often ill advised and counterproductive with all sorts of unintended consequences. |
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CowpokeBob
Joined: Feb 07, 2006
Posts: 1501
Location: South Carolina, USA
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 11:09 am Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
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| mommabear wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The original intent of my posting this topic was that I would have liked to see some of these hard core Obama fans debate the pros and cons of his policies since they think he is such a wise man and his policies of change so great rather than remind me of what Bush did or didn't do over the last eight years or what McCain might have done. That and I was curious about the sudden disappearance of these Obama supporters around here in the aftermath of his (in my opinion) failed policies. It's not a big deal though. There are enough of us on the conservative to libertarian sides to carry on the debate without them. |
Maybe they've "disappeared" because the hopes for the decent debates and discussion you say you want flew out the window the with constant, and I mean constant, posting of anything negative you could find about the Democrats and Obama. |
The "constant" negative posts you are referring to are our honest opinions of Obama and his policies. They contain links, often from Obama and company themselves, to back them up. It is exactly what we are supposed to be doing as the opposition so what's your complaint? You don't seem to fully understand the concept of "debate" so I wil explain it for you at the risk of probably getting more grief for doing so.
I and the "others" you refer to are the "opposition" in this debate. Our job as the opposition is to highlight those areas where we think Obama or his policies are "wrong" and then support that opinion with as many argumants and facts as we can. You and the "others" I referred to are the "advocates" in this debate. Your job is to post articles in support of why Obama's policies are "right" with as many arguments and facts as you can. It is also the job of both sides to offer up rebuttals to the opinions and facts of the other side. This is what a debate is all about. Ideally it should be conducted in a civil tone and manner but considering the high level of emotions on both sides of this debate I think it fair to expect a degree of that emotion to heat up the debate from time to time. Things like satire, and sarcasm are acceptable tools for use in a debate to aid in making points for your side. Ken, for example, is a master of this and I salute him for that even as I hate it when he does it. After all while the ultimate goal is to reach a consensus to work from it is still the mission of both sides to promote the views of thier side as much as possible in that consensus. There are certain things that don't belong in a debate. Name calling and finger pointing are two. I was called out on the name calling issue some time ago and made quite an effort since to refrain form doing it as a result. I may slip on occasion but like I said, emotions tend to run high in this debate.
Now if you have a different view of what a debate should be and want to share it please do. If you have valid complaints about the manner actions or style of anyone in this debate, or would like to set some ground rules on what is fair game for use that we all can agree to (a debate in itself I think) post them. This last part is not just for you mommabear but for everyone who posts here. As I've said before I'm intersted in having a spirited debate (note I didn't say tame) about Obama and his policies. And anything else that anyone wants to discuss. In short...put up or shut up. But please don't use the excuse we are all ill mannered or bull headed as justification for your leaving the debate.
| Quote: |
| Speaking for myself, I was hoping that we could all call a truce of some kind. We are not just Democrats or Republicans. The tone of our conduct towards each other has to change. Well, it hasn't on this board. |
See that's a problem mommabear. You can't start a debate by having a truce. A truce is what you finally arrive at after you've bloodied each other in the debate. I am not a Republican although I tend to affiliate myself with Republicans along ideological lines. From your posts I would guess you do the same concerning the Democratic party though I don't recall you ever saying you were a Democrat. Point of fact most of the folks that have mentioned it have stated they are not Republican or Democrat. As I've said before. This debate is an ideological one and there are very clear lines of separation on many issues. On some others we're pretty close. But being an ideological debate there is alot of emotion the enters into it. I agree the behavior on this board, mine included, has not been all that mature at times. But considering the level of importance given the subject I realize that is going to be the case sometimes. That's not a very good reason to abandon the debate though.
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| There are enough of us on the conservative to libertarian sides to carry on the debate without them. |
Pretty self explanatory I thought. If your not going to debate with us on the issues there are enough of us to carry on a debate without you. It greatly diminishes the debate though because people that agree on the major issues aren't going to do much more than pat each other on the back and agree with ourselves while we bicker about the minor details.
And I'm convinced that's just the way you want it, Cowpoke. Only don't kid yourself about that being any kind of "debate".[/quote]
Nothing I can do about that really except to tell you that your dead wrong! You are right that it won' be much of a debate without you and the others hence this effort to reach out. If I wanted to have a conversation with people that agreed with me I could have accepted any of the private messages I've rec'd here, many from self proclaimed former posters to this forum, to move to other conservative leaning forums. They expressed similar views as yours. Only they qut because of the "left" leaning nature of this forum. I'll give you the same response I give them. I don't need to get my message out to folks that already understand and agree with it. The fight of ideas, if you want to call it a fight, is right here and on any other liberal leaning forums, blogs, websites, media, etc. And yes, I fully intend to carry on with that "fight". With or without you. I will be very happy to work with you to allow for an open, honest and fair debate or I can work without you to get my views out, that choice is yours.
One last thing. Don't kid yourself either. A "debate" where I agree on the issues with "you" would be just as useless as the one you are warning me about. Enough said. If you or anyone else wants to reach me and discuss this further I am very easy to reach. I have a very public presence on the net, my email is available, I accept private messages, and I will answer any reasonable questions put to me on this forum and sometimes the unreasonable ones too. What I won't do is simpy agree for the sake of not fighting. |
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xavierx
Joined: Nov 06, 2004
Posts: 5427
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 11:41 am Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
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| mommabear wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The original intent of my posting this topic was that I would have liked to see some of these hard core Obama fans debate the pros and cons of his policies since they think he is such a wise man and his policies of change so great rather than remind me of what Bush did or didn't do over the last eight years or what McCain might have done. That and I was curious about the sudden disappearance of these Obama supporters around here in the aftermath of his (in my opinion) failed policies. It's not a big deal though. There are enough of us on the conservative to libertarian sides to carry on the debate without them. |
Maybe they've "disappeared" because the hopes for the decent debates and discussion you say you want flew out the window the with constant, and I mean constant, posting of anything negative you could find about the Democrats and Obama.
Speaking for myself, I was hoping that we could all call a truce of some kind. We are not just Democrats or Republicans. The tone of our conduct towards each other has to change. Well, it hasn't on this board.
| Quote: |
| There are enough of us on the conservative to libertarian sides to carry on the debate without them. |
And I'm convinced that's just the way you want it, Cowpoke. Only don't kid yourself about that being any kind of "debate". |
mommabear, for 4 years here I never once saw you post a positive article about Bush or any Republican. And you're not alone. For a time, you even had moderator support pushing aside any dissenting views around here - everything that was posted was negative of Bush or Republicans. To suddenly expect non-Obama supporters to agree with everything he does and post nothing but fluff pieces about how great he and the Democrats are is beyond unreasonable.
Perhaps if you want the tone to "change", you could come in here and post some positive threads. As you and others here for years have been fond of telling me, nothing is stopping you from posting what you want.
I also had to wipe the coffee off my monitor when I read the line about CowpokeBob wanting nothing but conservative and libertarian voices here. This is the EXACT same complaint (only Liberal) that we conservatives have had in this forum for years. To hear that turned around is truly funny, given the total lack of respect that argument received from "you" liberals.
Now, for my opinion of the phenomenon? There is little defense for any politician. It is very hard to defend their actions when it is so easy to see what they're doing wrong. However, there is a difference between what we saw here over the last 4 years and now.
In Bush's case, it was Iraq. It was hard to defend that he was doing a good job when he wasn't. Unfortunately, in his case, the posts here weren't about how his policies were bad, it was about how evil he was (remember "Bush lied, people died" and the thousands of posts about all the people he killed in "his" "illegal" war?). The vast majority of threads weren't about substance, they were about how Bush and/or the Republicans were corrupt, evil people. It's impossible to "debate" anything when that's the opposing position.
For the current case, I see things a lot differently. I see us (in general) trying to discuss Obama's policies, and the decisions he is or isn't making. We conservatives see what Obama is doing, it's quite clear. Heck, even "you" liberals admit that he is intent on pushing his liberal agenda. However, no one on the "his" side seems to want to discuss what he's been doing, just ask what McCain would have done or try to blame it all on Bush. Well, to quote you all, get over it - Obama and the Democrats are in charge, everything that happens under their watch is their responsibility. And it's even more "theirs" than it ever was "ours" - "we" were only in power for 4 years total, and never once had the kind of majorities that "you" have. |
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CowpokeBob
Joined: Feb 07, 2006
Posts: 1501
Location: South Carolina, USA
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:11 pm Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
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[quote="Sgt Schultz"]
| CowpokeBob wrote: |
| Sgt Schultz wrote: |
As I recall the Republicans did put up an alternative plan to the Sitmulus Bill . It went nowhere and wasn't even allowed to be debated by the Democratic leadership. Yes there are Republican earmarks in the Ominbus Bill and they shouldn't be there. And no, they didn't get the tax cuts they wanted. They got the tax cuts Obama wanted.
All of which is completely and utterly redundant since there is a Democrat in the White House and Democrats in the majority of both houses of Congress. It is truly amazing to me sometimes. Why is it when the Republicans had a majority it was thier responsibility when things weren't going well, when the Democrats took back the Congress it was still the Republican president's responsibility when things went wrong and now that the Democrats are completely in power it is still the Republican minority's responsibilty to come up with a plan to stop the recession. That's your answer is it? The reason we are still in the mess we are in and it is getting worse is not because of the reckless behavior of the Democrats and Obama but because of a few minority Republicans? Are Democrats truly that helpless that they can't act without Republican help?
Thanks for proving my theory that the only defense of Obama that can be mustered is to attack the opposition and deflect attention away from him. |
No it isn't my answer nor has it been CowpokeBob but it is the one that you believe you think I said...which is wrong. Did I say that it was the Republican's responsibility to come up with a plan? No I didn't. I said what have they been offering? Have I placed all the responsibility for what has been happening to the economy on the Republicans over the last 8 years? No I haven't and I certainly haven't exonerated the Democrats either. This mess we're in right now is a combination of greed, politics and bad judgment. No one party has a monopoly on that and we certainly didn't get here overnight.
Is it your answer that all the problems right now are because of the Democrats? |
I saw your post while I was responding to mommabear but I didn't want to mix the two. I'll take your comments in the order you posted them.
No that wasn't your answer but it was a legitimate conclusion for me to make based on the responses you gave. What conclusion was I supposed to draw from your reponses? You say that I was wrong to assume that and it was not your intent, actually you point out that you did not actually say that which isn't exactly the same thing but I'll give you the benefit of a doubt and accept that I was wrong in my assumption. That makes the rest of my rant moot too since my original assumption was wrong.
So you want to try again and explain what if anything Obama is doing right now for the economy that is "good" or am I gonna get the "it's too soon to tell speech again". I have to point out that it wasn't too soon to pass that obomintion of a stimulus bill that we were told was so criticaly needed to stop this economic slide. Which by all accounts is still sliding downward "after" the bill's passage. Or the fact that much of the bill won't take effect for a year or two, a time well "after" the point when most economist expect the recovery will have already begun.
Xavierx posted links to the Republican alternative on this forum a couple of times. I'm not going to do it again since that bill has already passed. There were many ideas floated back then not just Repuplican ones and many doubts about Obama's plan, again not by Republicans only.
As to the placing of blame you don't get much of an argument from me there. Iwas once again addressing the implication in your replies which you pointed out I was wrong about. Both sides can share in the responsibilty for this mess to some extent as well as the American people and many other groups. And that is partly the cause of my frustration. Many have shared in making this mess but only one group is now in a position of power to do anything about it and they aren't in my opinion. All the rest of us can do is watch and bemoan what we see. And it seems every time we attempt to call those in power to task for not correcting the problem we are directed to events in the past or end up in the blame game. This is where I agree more with Bern than anything else I have heard. I think the best course would be to step aside and let things run thier course. But that's not my call to make. It is my call to point out where Obama and company are straying from that path.
Now to your last question. Is that my answer to the present problems, to blame the Democrats? Short answer: YES! They are the ones in power right now. Not the Republicans, Libertarians, Communist, Socialist, or any other "ist" or group. The remedy, if there is going to be one, will have to come from the Democrats. Same goes for the praise should they succeed or the scorn should they fail. Even if the remedy is to do nothing that decision must come from the Democrats right now. If you want me to blame someone else for the country's present ills than elect them into office next election.
I don't post what I post because I want to make people like me or agree with me. I post it because it is what I believe and you will notice that I don't constantly attempt to make useless comparisons with past presidents or try to speculate about what might have been. Nor am I going to fall into the trap of letting anyone use those types of tactics to distract me from those currently in power and thier abuses. |
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