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clhenry
Joined: Feb 13, 2003
Posts: 9051
Location: West by god Virginia
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 Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/a...liaislamattacks
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SYDNEY (AFP) - Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law have been told to get out of Australia.
A day after a group of mainstream Muslim leaders pledged loyalty to Australia at a special meeting with Prime Minister John Howard, he and his ministers made it clear that extremists would face a crackdown.
Treasurer Peter Costello, seen as heir apparent to Howard, hinted that some radical clerics could be asked to leave the country if they did not accept that Australia was a secular state and its laws were made by parliament.
"If those are not your values, if you want a country which has Sharia law or a theocratic state, then Australia is not for you," he said on national television.
"I'd be saying to clerics who are teaching that there are two laws governing people in Australia, one the Australian law and another the Islamic law, that that is false.
"If you can't agree with parliamentary law, independent courts, democracy, and would prefer Sharia law and have the opportunity to go to another country which practises it, perhaps, then, that's a better option," Costello said. |
I seem to remember a thread here, where the Muslims wanted there own laws here. But can't find it now.
When someone takes up residency in another country, they should have to follow that countrys laws. Not bring their own with them. |
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User: inactive
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Muslims following the law? Is that a new concept??? If it is not in the Koran it is not a law. B)
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Webb
Joined: Feb 17, 2003
Posts: 4271
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KEvron
Joined: Jul 06, 2005
Posts: 297
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Muslims following the law? Is that a new concept??? If it is not in the Koran it is not a law. |
right. it's not as if christian americans ever break the law (canon or civil).
did you know that more americans were murdered in last year than in all the terrorist attacks ever?
correction:
"....more americans were murdered by other americans last year...." |
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seaeagle
Joined: Aug 31, 2004
Posts: 5764
Location: Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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I agree entirely with the remarks by my country's leaders. There has been a lot of hate preached lately, and everyone has been wondering when the Government was going to do something about it.
As an aside, at the meeting with the Prime Minister it was also suggested that Imams be trained in Australia, instead of importing the hate-filled ones from the Middle East. And, religious schools are going to be monitored to ensure they are not teaching hate to our country's youngsters. |
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tony7914
Joined: Dec 24, 2004
Posts: 4965
Location: Peru Indiana
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/a...liaislamattacks
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SYDNEY (AFP) - Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law have been told to get out of Australia.
A day after a group of mainstream Muslim leaders pledged loyalty to Australia at a special meeting with Prime Minister John Howard, he and his ministers made it clear that extremists would face a crackdown.
Treasurer Peter Costello, seen as heir apparent to Howard, hinted that some radical clerics could be asked to leave the country if they did not accept that Australia was a secular state and its laws were made by parliament.
"If those are not your values, if you want a country which has Sharia law or a theocratic state, then Australia is not for you," he said on national television.
"I'd be saying to clerics who are teaching that there are two laws governing people in Australia, one the Australian law and another the Islamic law, that that is false.
"If you can't agree with parliamentary law, independent courts, democracy, and would prefer Sharia law and have the opportunity to go to another country which practises it, perhaps, then, that's a better option," Costello said. |
I seem to remember a thread here, where the Muslims wanted there own laws here. But can't find it now.
When someone takes up residency in another country, they should have to follow that countrys laws. Not bring their own with them.
[right][snapback]287640[/snapback][/right]
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I remember an article about an african country that is doing something with there constitution, mostly christian country, arab minority that wants islamic law included in the constitution for minor infractions. |
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kenmabmcc
Joined: Nov 20, 2003
Posts: 8181
Location: Dunedin, New Zealand.
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 12:13 am Post subject: |
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| Nigeria? |
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Serial666
Joined: Aug 04, 2004
Posts: 2981
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 10:06 am Post subject: |
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I agree entirely with the remarks by my country's leaders. There has been a lot of hate preached lately, and everyone has been wondering when the Government was going to do something about it.
As an aside, at the meeting with the Prime Minister it was also suggested that Imams be trained in Australia, instead of importing the hate-filled ones from the Middle East. And, religious schools are going to be monitored to ensure they are not teaching hate to our country's youngsters.
[right][snapback]287778[/snapback][/right]
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In America they have a "separation of religion and state" to guard against this.
It's written into their constitution, and a good thing to.
As a measure against terrorism it's useless at best, and at worst will alienate religious folk.
If you implement this for muslims then you must implement it for ALL religions.
Do you REALLY want your government to dictate what you can believe in?
It just won't work.
Freedom is a thing that is double edged. |
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patio
Joined: Feb 03, 2004
Posts: 5598
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 10:28 am Post subject: |
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| Muslims following the law? Is that a new concept??? If it is not in the Koran it is not a law. |
right. it's not as if christian americans ever break the law (canon or civil).
did you know that more americans were murdered in last year than in all the terrorist attacks ever?
[right][snapback]287774[/snapback][/right]
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Source ? ?
patio. B) |
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ml_barron
Joined: Jun 16, 2004
Posts: 790
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 11:36 am Post subject: |
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Yes, in America you are allowed to practice whatever religion you want to and follow it's laws up to the point that it violates state and country laws. Such as Mormons having more than one wife or in some religions, beating your wife as discipline for not having your face covered. If you want to follow your religions tenants, that is fine. If your wife doesn't want to, you can't force her to. You cannot violate state or country laws to follow religious law.
I think Australia is only expecting the same thing of Muslims that we do. Our country's laws come first. If you don't agree and believe Shari law comes first, then perhaps you should find another place to live that does follow Shari Law. |
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rafcaf
Joined: Nov 26, 2003
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, in America you are allowed to practice whatever religion you want to and follow it's laws up to the point that it violates state and country laws. Such as Mormons having more than one wife or in some religions, beating your wife as discipline for not having your face covered. If you want to follow your religions tenants, that is fine. If your wife doesn't want to, you can't force her to. You cannot violate state or country laws to follow religious law.
I think Australia is only expecting the same thing of Muslims that we do. Our country's laws come first. If you don't agree and believe Shari law comes first, then perhaps you should find another place to live that does follow Shari Law.
[right][snapback]287884[/snapback][/right]
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:angry:
Mormons, except those that are not recognized by the Church of Jesus Crist of Latter-day Saints, do not practice plural marraiage. The church in its doctrines requires its members wherever they are in the world to follow the laws of the country where they live and to respect the laws wherever they travel. Please be careful about labeling religions based on a few radicals or people claiming a religion without being a member of that religion. Also, check your facts before making unfounded claims about a religion, it creates problems for everyone. :hmm: |
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User: inactive
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, in America you are allowed to practice whatever religion you want to and follow it's laws up to the point that it violates state and country laws. Such as Mormons having more than one wife or in some religions, beating your wife as discipline for not having your face covered. If you want to follow your religions tenants, that is fine. If your wife doesn't want to, you can't force her to. You cannot violate state or country laws to follow religious law.
I think Australia is only expecting the same thing of Muslims that we do. Our country's laws come first. If you don't agree and believe Shari law comes first, then perhaps you should find another place to live that does follow Shari Law.
[right][snapback]287884[/snapback][/right]
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:angry:
Mormons, except those that are not recognized by the Church of Jesus Crist of Latter-day Saints, do not practice plural marraiage. The church in its doctrines requires its members wherever they are in the world to follow the laws of the country where they live and to respect the laws wherever they travel. Please be careful about labeling religions based on a few radicals or people claiming a religion without being a member of that religion. Also, check your facts before making unfounded claims about a religion, it creates problems for everyone. :hmm:
[right][snapback]287926[/snapback][/right]
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| except those that are not recognized by the Church of Jesus Crist of Latter-day Saints, |
So there are some Mormons that do have more than one wife. Therefore do not condemn a person for using the Mormon religion as an example. This thread ius about Muslims anyway. |
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ml_barron
Joined: Jun 16, 2004
Posts: 790
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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I refer to Mormons of the past not present day Mormons. Plural marriages were common in the 1800's.
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The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy. Others attain unto a glory and may even be permitted to come into the presence of the Father and the Son; but they cannot reign as kings in glory, because they had blessings offered unto them, and they refused to accept them.
Journal of Discourses, Vol.11, p.268 - p.269, Brigham Young, August 19, 1866 |
I used the Mormons as an example because they did follow our Country's laws and still practice their religion. I am fully aware that Mormons, except for a few small sects of fundementalist, are monogamous and would be excommunicated from the LDS church. |
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KEvron
Joined: Jul 06, 2005
Posts: 297
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Muslims following the law? Is that a new concept??? If it is not in the Koran it is not a law. |
right. it's not as if christian americans ever break the law (canon or civil).
did you know that more americans were murdered in last year than in all the terrorist attacks ever?
[right][snapback]287774[/snapback][/right]
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Source ? ?
patio. B)
[right][snapback]287870[/snapback][/right]
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1. see correction.
2. source.
:harhar: |
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KEvron
Joined: Jul 06, 2005
Posts: 297
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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let's call it a draw.
Murder, violence rates fall, FBI says
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| Murder rates across the nation have been slowly climbing since 2000, when the nation's 15,517 murders were the lowest since 1965. |
quick-reference extrapolation gives us about 15,500 - 16,000 murders, give or take.
Terrorist Attacks (within the United States or against Americans abroad)
and until 9/11, the largest of these was commited by another american (may timothy mcveign rot and burn forever in hell).
still, not a very reassuring draw.
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Outshined
Joined: Dec 09, 2002
Posts: 4409
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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I used the Mormons as an example because they did follow our Country's laws and still practice their religion. I am fully aware that Mormons, except for a few small sects of fundementalist, are monogamous and would be excommunicated from the LDS church.
[right][snapback]287931[/snapback][/right]
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Yep, that ended in 1890. 
And you're right; the US allows everyone to follow their own faith up to the point that it violates the law. That is not unreasonable; some countries forbid the practice of "non-approved" religions. :thumbdown: |
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seaeagle
Joined: Aug 31, 2004
Posts: 5764
Location: Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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In America they have a "separation of religion and state" to guard against this.
It's written into their constitution, and a good thing to.
As a measure against terrorism it's useless at best, and at worst will alienate religious folk.
If you implement this for muslims then you must implement it for ALL religions.
Do you REALLY want your government to dictate what you can believe in?
It just won't work.
Freedom is a thing that is double edged.
[right][snapback]287864[/snapback][/right]
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We do have separation of state & religion. The people in my country are free to worship (or non-worship) which ever God or what-ever else they choose. Things change when people start preaching hatred. They are not punished because of their religion - they are punished because of the hatred they spew out at people who do not adhere to what they believe are the rules of their chosen religion. We also do not accept neo-Nazi hatred, anti-semetism, anti-Asian, anti-Muslim, and all of those other hatreds that people carry around in their bitter souls. It is my right not to have to put up with those types of hate-filled, vindictive people in my society.
It is also my country's right to refuse entry or deport anybody who is a citizen of another country, just as the US or UK can deport non-citizens.
There was one thing lacking in earlier posts, and that was what our Treasurer qualified later. Anybody who does not have Australian citizenship can be "requested" to return to their country of citizenship. Anyone holding dual-citizenship can be requested to "exercise" their other citizenship & thus leave Australia. I believe most countries hold the right to refuse entry or deport as an essential part of their sovereignity.
If they are Australian citizens, then they can be treated just like any other people who break anti-vilification laws (which apply to race, religion, sexuality, social status etc). The law does not just apply to Muslims preaching hatred.
I believe it is my country's right to refuse entry or visas to citizens from other countries if they are going to damage the fabric of my society - without that right every terrorist in the world would take shelter here, knowing that they could never be ordered to leave. |
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Serial666
Joined: Aug 04, 2004
Posts: 2981
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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Seaeagle,
I think you missed my point.
When your government takes over the training of clerics,
and dictates what can and can't be taught to or by them that is wrong.
How long before other religions are dictated to in the same way?
You no longer have a separation of church and state.
This is potentially despotism of the worst sort.
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seaeagle
Joined: Aug 31, 2004
Posts: 5764
Location: Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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Seaeagle,
I think you missed my point.
When your government takes over the training of clerics,
and dictates what can and can't be taught to or by them that is wrong.
How long before other religions are dictated to in the same way?
You no longer have a separation of church and state.
This is potentially despotism of the worst sort.
[right][snapback]288026[/snapback][/right]
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I don't think so. We have Catholic Priests trained here, Rabbis, Anglican Priests etc. The government doesn't dictate what they are taught. The same happens in your country. Wouldn't there be an uproar if every priest in the UK was an Italian who spoke no English & constantly criticised the UK every chance they had? How about if the (hypothetically) Italian-speaking, Italian-trained priests were still continually pushing the Catholics in Ulster to carry on the fight against the Protestants? That is pretty much the type of situation we have been moving towards here with our Muslim clerics (& yes - some have been calling for the continuation of Jihad and have even publicly declared their belief that Bin-Laden is a good or honourable man).
Sure - there's nothing wrong with clerics doing some training overseas, just as other religious heads do, but at the moment we seem to be "importing" radical clerics from the strife-torn Middle-East instead of promoting faithful Australian Muslims to move up to the next challenge of their religion.
Many of our clerics speak no, or very little, English, even though they may have been in Australia for over 20 years. They are "cocooned" from general society,and make no effort to understand our way of life. Instead, they preach their hatreds to their own bands of followers who then pass the hatred along to others.
Australia has a large Muslim population. Certainly large enough for it to warrant having a cleric training facility located here. I hope we do move towards being able to boast of having such a Muslim facility here - it can only be good for our society.
BTW, Imam's being trained in Australia does not mean Imam's trained by the Australian government. It means that facilities could be set up for Australian Muslims to further their learning here instead of having to import clerics from overseas. |
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Serial666
Joined: Aug 04, 2004
Posts: 2981
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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I hope we do move towards being able to boast of having such a Muslim facilty here - it can only be good for our society.
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That is commendable and would be a good thing, but not if it's teachings where regulated by the state.
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