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dobbie6060



Joined: Aug 24, 2007
Posts: 551



PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:58 pm    Post subject: 'So what have the Palestinians got to complain about?'

Mark Steel:
So what have the Palestinians got to complain about?

To portray this as a conflict between equals requires some imagination
31 December 2008
When you read the statements from Israeli and US politicians, and try to match them with the pictures of devastation, there seems to be only one explanation.
They must have one of those conditions, called something like "Visual Carnage Responsibility Back To Front Upside Down Massacre Disorder".

For example, Condoleezza Rice, having observed that more than 300 Gazans were dead, said: "We are deeply concerned about the escalating violence. We strongly condemn the attacks on Israel and hold Hamas responsible."
Someone should ask her to comment on teenage knife-crime, to see if she'd say: "I strongly condemn the people who've been stabbed, and until they abandon their practice of wandering around clutching their sides and bleeding, there is no hope for peace."

The Israeli government suffers terribly from this confusion. They probably have adverts on Israeli television in which a man falls off a ladder and screams, "Eeeeugh", then a voice says, "Have you caused an accident at work in the last 12 months?" and the bloke who pushed him gets £3,000.
The gap between the might of Israel's F-16 bombers and Apache helicopters, and the Palestinians' catapulty thing is so ridiculous that to try and portray the situation as between two equal sides requires the imagination of a children's story writer.

The reporter on News at Ten said the rockets "may be ineffective, but they ARE symbolic." So they might not have weapons but they have got symbolism, the canny brutes.
It's no wonder the Israeli Air Force had to demolish a few housing estates, otherwise Hamas might have tried to mock Israel through a performance of expressive dance.
The rockets may be unable to to kill on the scale of the Israeli Air Force, said one spokesman, but they are "intended to kill".

Maybe he went on: "And we have evidence that Hamas supporters have dreams, and that in these dreams bad things happen to Israeli citizens, they burst, or turn into cactus, or run through Woolworths naked, so it's not important whether it can happen, what matters is that they WANT it to happen, so we blew up their university."

Or there's the outrage that Hamas has been supported by Iran. Well that's just breaking the rules. Because say what you will about the Israelis, they get no arms supplies or funding or political support from a country that's more powerful than them, they just go their own way and make all their weapons in an arts and crafts workshop in Jerusalem.
But mostly the Israelis justify themselves with a disappointing lack of imagination, such as the line that they had to destroy an ambulance because Hamas cynically put their weapons inside ambulances.
They should be more creative, and say Hamas were planning to aim the flashing blue light at Israeli epileptics in an attempt to make them go into a fit, get dizzy and wander off into Syria where they would be captured.

But they prefer a direct approach, such as the statement from Ofer Schmerling, an Israeli Civil Defence official who said on al-Jazeera, "I shall play music and celebrate what the Israeli Air Force is doing."
Maybe they could turn it into a huge nationalfestival, with decorations and mince pies and shops playing
"I Wish We Could Bomb Gaza Every Day".

In a similar tone Dov Weisglas, Ariel Sharon's chief of staff, referred to the siege of Gaza that preceded this bombing, a siege in which the Israelis prevented the population from receiving essential supplies of food, medicine, electricity and water, by saying,
"We put them on a diet."
It's the arrogance of the East End gangster, so it wouldn't be out of character if the Israeli Prime Minister's press conference began: "Oh dear or dear. It looks like those Palestinians have had a little, er, accident. All their buildings have been knocked down – they want to be more careful, hee hee."

And almost certainly one of the reasons this is happening now is because the government wants to appear hard as it wants to win an election. Maybe with typical Israeli frankness they'll show a party political broadcast in which Ehud Olmert says, "This is why I think you should vote for me", then shows film of Gaza and yells: "Wa-hey, that bloke in the corner is on FIRE."

And Condoleezza Rice and her colleagues, and the specially appointed Middle East Peace Envoy, could then all shake their heads and say: "Disgraceful. The way he's flapping around like that could cause someone to have a nasty accident."
http://www.independent.co.uk/
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tony7914



Joined: Dec 24, 2004
Posts: 4965

Location: Peru Indiana

PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:57 pm    Post subject: Re: 'So what have the Palestinians got to complain about?' [Login to view extended thread Info.]

dobbie6060 wrote:
Mark Steel:
So what have the Palestinians got to complain about?

To portray this as a conflict between equals requires some imagination
31 December 2008
When you read the statements from Israeli and US politicians, and try to match them with the pictures of devastation, there seems to be only one explanation.
They must have one of those conditions, called something like "Visual Carnage Responsibility Back To Front Upside Down Massacre Disorder".

For example, Condoleezza Rice, having observed that more than 300 Gazans were dead, said: "We are deeply concerned about the escalating violence. We strongly condemn the attacks on Israel and hold Hamas responsible."
Someone should ask her to comment on teenage knife-crime, to see if she'd say: "I strongly condemn the people who've been stabbed, and until they abandon their practice of wandering around clutching their sides and bleeding, there is no hope for peace."

The Israeli government suffers terribly from this confusion. They probably have adverts on Israeli television in which a man falls off a ladder and screams, "Eeeeugh", then a voice says, "Have you caused an accident at work in the last 12 months?" and the bloke who pushed him gets £3,000.
The gap between the might of Israel's F-16 bombers and Apache helicopters, and the Palestinians' catapulty thing is so ridiculous that to try and portray the situation as between two equal sides requires the imagination of a children's story writer.

The reporter on News at Ten said the rockets "may be ineffective, but they ARE symbolic." So they might not have weapons but they have got symbolism, the canny brutes.
It's no wonder the Israeli Air Force had to demolish a few housing estates, otherwise Hamas might have tried to mock Israel through a performance of expressive dance.
The rockets may be unable to to kill on the scale of the Israeli Air Force, said one spokesman, but they are "intended to kill".

Maybe he went on: "And we have evidence that Hamas supporters have dreams, and that in these dreams bad things happen to Israeli citizens, they burst, or turn into cactus, or run through Woolworths naked, so it's not important whether it can happen, what matters is that they WANT it to happen, so we blew up their university."

Or there's the outrage that Hamas has been supported by Iran. Well that's just breaking the rules. Because say what you will about the Israelis, they get no arms supplies or funding or political support from a country that's more powerful than them, they just go their own way and make all their weapons in an arts and crafts workshop in Jerusalem.
But mostly the Israelis justify themselves with a disappointing lack of imagination, such as the line that they had to destroy an ambulance because Hamas cynically put their weapons inside ambulances.
They should be more creative, and say Hamas were planning to aim the flashing blue light at Israeli epileptics in an attempt to make them go into a fit, get dizzy and wander off into Syria where they would be captured.

But they prefer a direct approach, such as the statement from Ofer Schmerling, an Israeli Civil Defence official who said on al-Jazeera, "I shall play music and celebrate what the Israeli Air Force is doing."
Maybe they could turn it into a huge nationalfestival, with decorations and mince pies and shops playing
"I Wish We Could Bomb Gaza Every Day".

In a similar tone Dov Weisglas, Ariel Sharon's chief of staff, referred to the siege of Gaza that preceded this bombing, a siege in which the Israelis prevented the population from receiving essential supplies of food, medicine, electricity and water, by saying,
"We put them on a diet."
It's the arrogance of the East End gangster, so it wouldn't be out of character if the Israeli Prime Minister's press conference began: "Oh dear or dear. It looks like those Palestinians have had a little, er, accident. All their buildings have been knocked down – they want to be more careful, hee hee."

And almost certainly one of the reasons this is happening now is because the government wants to appear hard as it wants to win an election. Maybe with typical Israeli frankness they'll show a party political broadcast in which Ehud Olmert says, "This is why I think you should vote for me", then shows film of Gaza and yells: "Wa-hey, that bloke in the corner is on FIRE."

And Condoleezza Rice and her colleagues, and the specially appointed Middle East Peace Envoy, could then all shake their heads and say: "Disgraceful. The way he's flapping around like that could cause someone to have a nasty accident."
http://www.independent.co.uk/


Quote:
'So what have the Palestinians got to complain about?'


If they have any sense Hamas.
It was Hamas that decided not to extend the cease fire and decided to fire hundreds of rockets indiscriminately into Israel. Only a complete idiot would think that Israel wouldn't retaliate and retaliate hard.
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CowpokeBob



Joined: Feb 07, 2006
Posts: 1501

Location: South Carolina, USA

PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:42 am    Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.]

Quote:
dobbie6060 wrote:
Mark Steel:
So what have the Palestinians got to complain about?


So this Mark Steel fellow asks the question above then launches into this long winded attempt at an explanation answering it as if Hamas were the victim here being bullied by big bad Israel. I guess being "symbolically" killed by a Hamas missle that gets "lucky" is somehow less dead than if the missle were accurately aimed at you.
Lets completely ignore the terrorism Hamas is committing or the rights of Israeli's in this matter. Using his own argument then what we should be doing is providing Hamas with a proper set of weapons, tanks, planes, missles, helicopters, etc. so they can kill Israelis on an equal footing. My gosh, why didn't the US think of that earlier. I'll get busy and petition my congressman to do just that immediately.
Now my opinion is that the Palistinians inside Gaza should take a basbell bat, pipe, brick or any of the other objects they find suitable to throw at Israeli soldiers and instead throw them at the gun toting, missle firing, jihad promoting terrorists standing next to them. After all just watch the news and you know they are not hard to find. Otherwise they are leaving it to the Israeli's to decide how best to protect themselves and I'll ask the question again...What have they got to complain about?

Or let me put it to you in another way by using a southern style example. If you were a Hamas knife wielding thug trying to stab me in my own "hood" you can bet i would attempt to defend myself. I could try to rely on my hand to hand skills or use a knife myself for protection but that opens me and my "hood" up to further risk. So I am going to use a method which keeps me and my "hood" the safest. To do that I have to confront you thugs on your "turf". Here in my "hood" I can actually call on and aid the police for that but in the Hamas "hood" the police are carrying knives to use on me too. So I'll arm myself with a gun, a rifle would be better (longer range), or heck, for that matter a missle gets the job done even better. Bigger is better after all. And after repeatedly calling on the decent folks in your "hood" to halt your knife wielding ways only to have them actively support and encourage you to stab me over and over again while they cheer in the street I can only assume they are in it with you. If they care so little for my "hood" and my "folks" there is no reason for me to care about thiers so lets just call it an economy of arms if I can take all of you out with one missle. Complaints? Take it up with those thugs in Hamas.
And have a nice day Smile
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dobbie6060



Joined: Aug 24, 2007
Posts: 551



PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:59 am    Post subject: Gaza: Warsaw Revisited [Login to view extended thread Info.]

FACT:Israeli citizens live in constant fear of Hamas rockets

FACT:Since 2005 Hamas has fired some 6,300 rockets from Gaza at Israel, killing 10 people.
(http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123051140769338457.html)

-really this is flintstone vs star wars:
pic of Primitive Hamas Rocket a la MythBusters CivilWar episode
http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2008/12/israel_and_gaza.html

The Gaza Strip, with a population of some 1.3
million people in 365km2 is one of the most
densely populated places on the globe; being completely surrounded,
for years now, by 12ft&higher concrete and steel walls
and razor wire fencing with posts, sensors and buffer zones on lands bordering Israel,is a prison for all of its
residents

http://atlanticfreepress.com/news/1/7010-gaza-warsaw-revisited-.html

Gaza: Warsaw Revisited
by Michael Gillespie

...Any Israeli ground attack in Gaza that results in large numbers of casualties will be widely compared to the April 19 - May 16, 1943 Nazi campaign, with over 2000 soldiers, mostly Waffen SS, SS Ordungspolizei, and SS Sicherheitsdienst troops under the command of SS General Jürgen Stroop, to end the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising.
The Nazis had walled off and sealed the ghetto in November 1940 and refused to allow in enough food to support life.Jews were forbidden to leave on penalty of being shot on sight.

The Israeli blockade of Gaza, where 80 percent of the population lives and dies on less than $2 per day, is strikingly similar.
Stroop’s SS troops attacked with tanks and other armored vehicles, artillery, and flame throwers.
Some 1,200 starving Jews armed only with pistols, rifles, a few machine guns, grenades, and Molotov cocktails held out for 28 days as the SS troops systematically burned and blew up buildings and leveled the ghetto. Some 13,000
Jews were killed. Do Israeli leaders intend a similar extermination campaign in Gaza, as the entire world watches?
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tony7914



Joined: Dec 24, 2004
Posts: 4965

Location: Peru Indiana

PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:49 pm    Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.]

Quote:
Israeli officials say that Hamas has acquired dozens of Iranian-made Fajr-3 missiles and with it, an even longer range than previously seen. Many fear that as the group acquires ever more sophisticated weaponry it is only a matter of time before the nuclear installation at Dimona, 20 miles east of Beersheba, falls within its sights...........


Source.

It's a safe bet that israel will not allow Hamas the opurtunity to do that. Hamas would be wise to accept what Israel want's in a cease fire.
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tony7914



Joined: Dec 24, 2004
Posts: 4965

Location: Peru Indiana

PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 2:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Gaza: Warsaw Revisited [Login to view extended thread Info.]

dobbie6060 wrote:
FACT:Israeli citizens live in constant fear of Hamas rockets

FACT:Since 2005 Hamas has fired some 6,300 rockets from Gaza at Israel, killing 10 people.
(http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123051140769338457.html)

The rest of the FACT
Quote:
The chronology of this latest violence is important to understand. Israel withdrew both its soldiers and all of its settlers from Gaza in August 2005. Hamas won its internal power struggle with Mr. Abbas's Fatah organization to control Gaza in 2007. Since 2005 Hamas has fired some 6,300 rockets at Israeli civilians from Gaza, killing 10 and wounding more than 780.
Hamas did agree to a six-month cease-fire earlier this year, during which the rocket attacks declined in number but never completely stopped. But Hamas refused to extend the truce past December 19, and the group has since resumed attacks, firing nearly 300 missiles, rockets and mortars. The 250,000 Israelis in the southern part of the country live under constant threat, often in bomb shelters, and the economy has suffered. Yet the world's media seem to pay attention only when Israel responds to that Hamas barrage.......

From your link.



-really this is flintstone vs star wars:
pic of Primitive Hamas Rocket a la MythBusters CivilWar episode
http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2008/12/israel_and_gaza.html

The Gaza Strip, with a population of some 1.3
million people in 365km2 is one of the most
densely populated places on the globe; being completely surrounded,
for years now, by 12ft&higher concrete and steel walls
and razor wire fencing with posts, sensors and buffer zones on lands bordering Israel,is a prison for all of its
residents

http://atlanticfreepress.com/news/1/7010-gaza-warsaw-revisited-.html

Gaza: Warsaw Revisited
by Michael Gillespie

...Any Israeli ground attack in Gaza that results in large numbers of casualties will be widely compared to the April 19 - May 16, 1943 Nazi campaign, with over 2000 soldiers, mostly Waffen SS, SS Ordungspolizei, and SS Sicherheitsdienst troops under the command of SS General Jürgen Stroop, to end the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising.
The Nazis had walled off and sealed the ghetto in November 1940 and refused to allow in enough food to support life.Jews were forbidden to leave on penalty of being shot on sight.

The Israeli blockade of Gaza, where 80 percent of the population lives and dies on less than $2 per day, is strikingly similar.
Stroop’s SS troops attacked with tanks and other armored vehicles, artillery, and flame throwers.
Some 1,200 starving Jews armed only with pistols, rifles, a few machine guns, grenades, and Molotov cocktails held out for 28 days as the SS troops systematically burned and blew up buildings and leveled the ghetto. Some 13,000
Jews were killed. Do Israeli leaders intend a similar extermination campaign in Gaza, as the entire world watches?
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dobbie6060



Joined: Aug 24, 2007
Posts: 551



PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 3:39 pm    Post subject: here's my problem [Login to view extended thread Info.]

' orthogonality' put it most eloquently:
"I once was a very strong supporter of Israel; for various reasons I can't feel that way anymore. One person's reaction, and all that, but to me Israel looks more and more like a smug bully (and the Palestinians desperate idiots with dubious morals).

Israel constantly claims the moral high ground: the only democracy in the region, the land a gift of G-d, the land a Western guilt-offering for the Holocaust and centuries of antisemitism, what have you. But if Israel wants to claim the moral high ground, Israel needs to hold itself to a higher moral standard than "might makes right" and "we have bigger guns".

Israel has got to stop the (yes I'll say it) Nazi-like collective punishments, the routine humiliation of Palestinian border crossers on their way to and from work, the IDF shooting civilians for sport, the denial of medical care as tool to get informants, the torture.

Israel's policy for decades has been to use military force and figure that no one will care if Palestinians civilians are killed and maimed. Of course, that just results in more Palestians joining the resistance.

Israelis didn't stop their terrorism against the British until they got their land and sovereignty; unsurprisingly Palestinians will do the same.

Israel's choices are decades more fratricide, committing genocide, or giving land for peace.

If you truly support Israel -- and I do -- you can't counsel more of the same eye-for-an-eye. You can't counsel more and more of the moral degradation of Israel that directly results from being an occupying power. Israel is keeping "its" land only by sacrificing its children (and the children of the Palestinians), only by training generations on both sides to hate and kill, only by losing its soul.

It's time to end this. Encouarging -- or even looking the other way at -- Israel's continuing wars of occupation is no support of Israel at all. It's little wonder that Israel's biggest non-Jewish supporters are those who prophecy that only a bloodbath there will return them their Jesus."
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tony7914



Joined: Dec 24, 2004
Posts: 4965

Location: Peru Indiana

PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 4:36 pm    Post subject: Re: here's my problem [Login to view extended thread Info.]

dobbie6060 wrote:
' orthogonality' put it most eloquently:
"I once was a very strong supporter of Israel; for various reasons I can't feel that way anymore. One person's reaction, and all that, but to me Israel looks more and more like a smug bully (and the Palestinians desperate idiots with dubious morals).

Israel constantly claims the moral high ground: the only democracy in the region, the land a gift of G-d, the land a Western guilt-offering for the Holocaust and centuries of antisemitism, what have you. But if Israel wants to claim the moral high ground, Israel needs to hold itself to a higher moral standard than "might makes right" and "we have bigger guns".

Israel has got to stop the (yes I'll say it) Nazi-like collective punishments, the routine humiliation of Palestinian border crossers on their way to and from work, the IDF shooting civilians for sport, the denial of medical care as tool to get informants, the torture.

Israel's policy for decades has been to use military force and figure that no one will care if Palestinians civilians are killed and maimed. Of course, that just results in more Palestians joining the resistance.

Israelis didn't stop their terrorism against the British until they got their land and sovereignty; unsurprisingly Palestinians will do the same.

Israel's choices are decades more fratricide, committing genocide, or giving land for peace.

If you truly support Israel -- and I do -- you can't counsel more of the same eye-for-an-eye. You can't counsel more and more of the moral degradation of Israel that directly results from being an occupying power. Israel is keeping "its" land only by sacrificing its children (and the children of the Palestinians), only by training generations on both sides to hate and kill, only by losing its soul.

It's time to end this. Encouarging -- or even looking the other way at -- Israel's continuing wars of occupation is no support of Israel at all. It's little wonder that Israel's biggest non-Jewish supporters are those who prophecy that only a bloodbath there will return them their Jesus."


I think Israel is about to end it.

Quote:
Barak on Saturday also said Israel "cannot really accept" a cease-fire with Hamas, rejecting calls by the United Nations and the European Union for a truce after Israel Air Force strikes killed at least 230 people in Gaza.
Advertisement

"For us to be asked to have a cease-fire with Hamas is like asking you to have a cease-fire with Al-Qaida," Barak said in an interview with Fox News. "It's something we cannot really accept."

Asked whether Israel would follow up the air strikes with a ground offensive, Barak said, "If boots on the ground will be needed, they will be there."

"Our intention is to totally change the rules of the game," he said.

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert earlier on Saturday said no country in the world would put up with the rocket and missile strikes Israel suffers from and that the time had come to react......


Source.

For those of you interested in the Israeli side of the coin Here's an interesting blog from someone who lives there.

We all know how biased the media can be so I think This. would be appropriate here as well.

And This. gives you a lot of information that wasn't mentioned by many media outlets.
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CowpokeBob



Joined: Feb 07, 2006
Posts: 1501

Location: South Carolina, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 8:29 pm    Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.]

Quote:

I think Israel is about to end it.

Quote:
Barak on Saturday also said Israel "cannot really accept" a cease-fire with Hamas, rejecting calls by the United Nations and the European Union for a truce after Israel Air Force strikes killed at least 230 people in Gaza.
Advertisement

"For us to be asked to have a cease-fire with Hamas is like asking you to have a cease-fire with Al-Qaida," Barak said in an interview with Fox News. "It's something we cannot really accept."

Asked whether Israel would follow up the air strikes with a ground offensive, Barak said, "If boots on the ground will be needed, they will be there."

"Our intention is to totally change the rules of the game," he said.

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert earlier on Saturday said no country in the world would put up with the rocket and missile strikes Israel suffers from and that the time had come to react......


Israel needs to go into Gaza and remove Hamas for good. Time for another "regime change". I for one am really tired of listening to the media and other elements going on about how the terrorist elements are the victims and governments like Israel are the bad guys for defending themselves. They put thier rocket launchers on top of civilian houses, launch thier payload of indiscriminate death at the Israelis then drag out the bodies of the poor dead civilians and children to show off to the media when the Israelis are forced to retaliate. Hamas is not the first to use women and children as cover and I'm sure they won't be the last. Thats fine, I've no sympathy for them. If you don't want to get blown up don't stand next to the missle launcher or terrorist.
It doesn't look like the two state option is going to work for Gaza. Didn't think it would since what the Palestinians really want is thier state to be locatde on the same land as Israel now occupies so I say give them thier wish and absorb the Gaza strip into Israel. Maybe the remaining Palestinian territory will take note that blind aggression is no solution.
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tony7914



Joined: Dec 24, 2004
Posts: 4965

Location: Peru Indiana

PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 8:56 pm    Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.]

CowpokeBob wrote:
Quote:

I think Israel is about to end it.

Quote:
Barak on Saturday also said Israel "cannot really accept" a cease-fire with Hamas, rejecting calls by the United Nations and the European Union for a truce after Israel Air Force strikes killed at least 230 people in Gaza.
Advertisement

"For us to be asked to have a cease-fire with Hamas is like asking you to have a cease-fire with Al-Qaida," Barak said in an interview with Fox News. "It's something we cannot really accept."

Asked whether Israel would follow up the air strikes with a ground offensive, Barak said, "If boots on the ground will be needed, they will be there."

"Our intention is to totally change the rules of the game," he said.

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert earlier on Saturday said no country in the world would put up with the rocket and missile strikes Israel suffers from and that the time had come to react......


Israel needs to go into Gaza and remove Hamas for good. Time for another "regime change". I for one am really tired of listening to the media and other elements going on about how the terrorist elements are the victims and governments like Israel are the bad guys for defending themselves. They put thier rocket launchers on top of civilian houses, launch thier payload of indiscriminate death at the Israelis then drag out the bodies of the poor dead civilians and children to show off to the media when the Israelis are forced to retaliate. Hamas is not the first to use women and children as cover and I'm sure they won't be the last. Thats fine, I've no sympathy for them. If you don't want to get blown up don't stand next to the missle launcher or terrorist.
It doesn't look like the two state option is going to work for Gaza. Didn't think it would since what the Palestinians really want is thier state to be locatde on the same land as Israel now occupies so I say give them thier wish and absorb the Gaza strip into Israel. Maybe the remaining Palestinian territory will take note that blind aggression is no solution.


Based on what i've read so far that is what might just happen.
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CowpokeBob



Joined: Feb 07, 2006
Posts: 1501

Location: South Carolina, USA

PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 4:03 pm    Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.]

tony7914 wrote:
CowpokeBob wrote:
Quote:

I think Israel is about to end it.

Quote:
Barak on Saturday also said Israel "cannot really accept" a cease-fire with Hamas, rejecting calls by the United Nations and the European Union for a truce after Israel Air Force strikes killed at least 230 people in Gaza.
Advertisement

"For us to be asked to have a cease-fire with Hamas is like asking you to have a cease-fire with Al-Qaida," Barak said in an interview with Fox News. "It's something we cannot really accept."

Asked whether Israel would follow up the air strikes with a ground offensive, Barak said, "If boots on the ground will be needed, they will be there."

"Our intention is to totally change the rules of the game," he said.

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert earlier on Saturday said no country in the world would put up with the rocket and missile strikes Israel suffers from and that the time had come to react......


Israel needs to go into Gaza and remove Hamas for good. Time for another "regime change". I for one am really tired of listening to the media and other elements going on about how the terrorist elements are the victims and governments like Israel are the bad guys for defending themselves. They put thier rocket launchers on top of civilian houses, launch thier payload of indiscriminate death at the Israelis then drag out the bodies of the poor dead civilians and children to show off to the media when the Israelis are forced to retaliate. Hamas is not the first to use women and children as cover and I'm sure they won't be the last. Thats fine, I've no sympathy for them. If you don't want to get blown up don't stand next to the missle launcher or terrorist.
It doesn't look like the two state option is going to work for Gaza. Didn't think it would since what the Palestinians really want is thier state to be locatde on the same land as Israel now occupies so I say give them thier wish and absorb the Gaza strip into Israel. Maybe the remaining Palestinian territory will take note that blind aggression is no solution.


Based on what i've read so far that is what might just happen.


Quote:
-- Israeli ground troops have begun moving into Gaza, according to Israel Defense Forces.


Only now does Hamas say they want a cease fire. Or more to the point they want the US to tell Israel to cease and desist while evading the question of thier side ceasing its attacks into Irael. Its a sure bet we will soon see the parade of dead women and children on the news. The question is which side actuaaly killed them. Its a sad commentary that they even need to do this but I do hope Israel turns Hamas into a history lesson this time...It's the only hope the Palestinians have for a future.
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Gezzer



Joined: Oct 19, 2008
Posts: 666

Location: Buckinghamshire England

PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 8:52 am    Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.]

a part of my history is Jewish, i had great grand parents executed in 1942 for being so, that's why my grand parents happened to arrive in the UK

but here we have a strip of land blocked by the sea and patrolled by a navy to prevent entrance and exit via that route unless they allow

the land locked sides are blocked by concrete walls, razor wire fences, military outposts and check points

in fact this strip of land has become a "containment camp" for those forced by right of might to live and remain there with no hope of freedom or escape other then that which is granted by the forces that police this "containment camp"

then when they decide that this/there freedom, or lack of, must be fought for by the limited means at there disposal they are then punished for this by overwhelming military might that can be brought to bear against them. they then become the enemy, the enemy that must be crushed, destroyed and eradicated from the planet, because the overwhelming forces state that must be so in the name of peace

how soon some in that area forget history and its lessons and wish to carry out against others exactly what was carried out against themselves …
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tony7914



Joined: Dec 24, 2004
Posts: 4965

Location: Peru Indiana

PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 7:34 pm    Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.]

Gezzer wrote:
a part of my history is Jewish, i had great grand parents executed in 1942 for being so, that's why my grand parents happened to arrive in the UK

but here we have a strip of land blocked by the sea and patrolled by a navy to prevent entrance and exit via that route unless they allow

the land locked sides are blocked by concrete walls, razor wire fences, military outposts and check points

in fact this strip of land has become a "containment camp" for those forced by right of might to live and remain there with no hope of freedom or escape other then that which is granted by the forces that police this "containment camp"

then when they decide that this/there freedom, or lack of, must be fought for by the limited means at there disposal they are then punished for this by overwhelming military might that can be brought to bear against them. they then become the enemy, the enemy that must be crushed, destroyed and eradicated from the planet, because the overwhelming forces state that must be so in the name of peace

how soon some in that area forget history and its lessons and wish to carry out against others exactly what was carried out against themselves …


I think they understand the history and lessons in that area far better than we do in the west.

Quote:
By Robert J. Lieber
Thursday, January 1, 2009; A13



After Israel's dramatic airstrikes, the world's media are filled with images of suffering Palestinian women and children, innocent victims in what is being referred to as a renewed cycle of violence. Predictably, both sides are being urged to call a halt, though in much of the Middle East and parts of Europe these demands, and the blame, fall especially heavily upon the Israelis. In America, there is relatively greater understanding and sympathy for Israel, but here, too, concern is growing about the violence.

While the details of the conflict often appear complex, the fundamentals -- hard truths about Gaza, its Hamas rulers and the wider Israeli-Palestinian conflict -- are straightforward. First, despite the tragic deaths of civilians, Israeli's airstrikes have been precisely aimed at Hamas fighters, installations and rocket launchers. Inevitably, the use of force causes injury and death to innocents, but from initial figures announced by U.N. personnel, it appears that more than 80 percent of those killed were Hamas security personnel or other militants -- a ratio that might compare favorably with the use of force by U.S. and NATO troops in Afghanistan. In view of Hamas's practice of deliberately placing missile launchers and other weapons in the midst of densely populated areas, the precision is remarkable. It also reflects the fact that the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) seek to minimize civilian deaths, while Hamas deliberately targets civilians.

Second, what we are witnessing is not a "cycle" of violence. The IDF airstrikes are a reaction to the unrelenting rocket and mortar attacks against the Jewish state. Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005 in the hope that the Palestinians would use the opportunity to prepare for an eventual agreement and a two-state solution in which they would live side by side in peace with Israel. Since then, there have been more than 3,500 such attacks aimed at areas of southern Israel, including over 200 launches since Dec. 19, after Hamas chose not to extend a six-month truce. The expanding range of these missiles now covers an area populated by as many as 700,000 Israelis.

Third, Israel and Hamas have profoundly different aims. Israel has accepted the principle of a two-state solution as the basis for ending the conflict. Hamas, by contrast, rejects this. Its language of "resistance" or "ending occupation" (even though no Israelis, civilian or military, other than the kidnapped soldier Gilad Shalit, have "occupied" Gaza for the past three years) is but a veiled expression of Hamas's actual objective: destroying Israel and creating an Islamist Palestinian state in its place. Credulous observers may see more peaceful purposes, but Hamas leaders periodically reassert these objectives, whether in the Hamas covenant or, in the words of a prominent Hamas cleric, Muhsen Abu 'Ita, speaking on Al-Aqsa TV and calling for "the annihilation of the Jews here in Palestine."

Fourth, any realistic hope of progress toward a peaceful resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and a successful two-state solution requires that Hamas suffer a severe setback in the present fighting in ways that seriously damage its capabilities and weaken its political credibility among Palestinians. Leading officials of Egypt, Saudi Arabia and the Palestinian Authority know this and, notwithstanding their formulaic criticisms of Israel, have explicitly blamed Hamas for the current violence. PLO and Fatah officials fault Hamas for the deaths in Gaza, and an adviser to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, Nimr Hammad, told the Lebanese newspaper Al-Akhbar: "The one responsible for the massacres is Hamas, and not the Zionist entity, which in its own view reacted to the firing of Palestinian missiles." Indeed, Hamas's position as a radical, terrorist, adventurist, Islamist organization is underscored by the absence of support for it by Muslim governments other than Iran and its surrogates.

Successful negotiations between Palestinians and Israelis remain highly desirable, but their achievement would require that a single credible Palestinian authority ("one authority, one gun, one law," as Abbas puts it) be able to speak on behalf of its people, represent them in difficult but meaningful negotiations, and possess the capacity as well as the will to enforce its side of a binding agreement. But Hamas represents an alternative source of authority and a direct challenge to the existing Palestinian leadership in the West Bank, while also -- through its non-recognition of Israel, its support for terrorism and its refusal to accept prior negotiated agreements -- rejecting even the most basic prerequisites for negotiations.

Egypt and Jordan have made peace with Israel, not because they embraced the ideas of Theodor Herzl, the founder of modern Zionism, but because they concluded that the effort to destroy the Jewish state had failed and that refusing to come to terms with it was harmful to their national interests. Ultimately, peace will be possible only if most Palestinians and their leaders become convinced that terrorism and violence are a dead end and that they cannot under any circumstances prevail over Israel through the use of force. If today's conflict leaves a seriously weakened and politically damaged Hamas, that result is more likely to enhance the prospects for peace than to weaken them....


Source.
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CowpokeBob



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 6:08 pm    Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.]

Excellent article. Sums it up quite nicely. Thanks Tony.
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tony7914



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 6:19 pm    Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.]

CowpokeBob wrote:
Excellent article. Sums it up quite nicely. Thanks Tony.


Welcome. So far it looks like Egypt might be the one to broker a cease fire.

On a side note This. is what I call suporting the troops Smile
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CowpokeBob



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 6:49 pm    Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.]

tony7914 wrote:
CowpokeBob wrote:
Excellent article. Sums it up quite nicely. Thanks Tony.


Welcome. So far it looks like Egypt might be the one to broker a cease fire.

On a side note This. is what I call suporting the troops Smile


I hope Israel doesn't cave in and agree to a cease fire before they fulfill thier objectives in Gaza. They will only pay the price for it later.

The pizza idea is really great! We should have something like that for our troops. Guess I'll have to pony up for some pizza for the IDF. Smile
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tony7914



Joined: Dec 24, 2004
Posts: 4965

Location: Peru Indiana

PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 6:55 pm    Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.]

CowpokeBob wrote:
tony7914 wrote:
CowpokeBob wrote:
Excellent article. Sums it up quite nicely. Thanks Tony.


Welcome. So far it looks like Egypt might be the one to broker a cease fire.

On a side note This. is what I call suporting the troops Smile


I hope Israel doesn't cave in and agree to a cease fire before they fulfill thier objectives in Gaza. They will only pay the price for it later.

The pizza idea is really great! We should have something like that for our troops. Guess I'll have to pony up for some pizza for the IDF. Smile


Here's. an Aussie living close to the fighting.
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CowpokeBob



Joined: Feb 07, 2006
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Location: South Carolina, USA

PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:30 pm    Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.]

tony7914 wrote:
CowpokeBob wrote:
tony7914 wrote:
CowpokeBob wrote:
Excellent article. Sums it up quite nicely. Thanks Tony.


Welcome. So far it looks like Egypt might be the one to broker a cease fire.

On a side note This. is what I call suporting the troops Smile


I hope Israel doesn't cave in and agree to a cease fire before they fulfill thier objectives in Gaza. They will only pay the price for it later.

The pizza idea is really great! We should have something like that for our troops. Guess I'll have to pony up for some pizza for the IDF. Smile


Here's. an Aussie living close to the fighting.


One good thing about the internet. It makes a great platform for confronting and combating the BS usually put out by the media. Got him linked so I can follow the news.
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tony7914



Joined: Dec 24, 2004
Posts: 4965

Location: Peru Indiana

PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:34 pm    Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.]

CowpokeBob wrote:
tony7914 wrote:
CowpokeBob wrote:
tony7914 wrote:
CowpokeBob wrote:
Excellent article. Sums it up quite nicely. Thanks Tony.


Welcome. So far it looks like Egypt might be the one to broker a cease fire.

On a side note This. is what I call suporting the troops Smile


I hope Israel doesn't cave in and agree to a cease fire before they fulfill thier objectives in Gaza. They will only pay the price for it later.

The pizza idea is really great! We should have something like that for our troops. Guess I'll have to pony up for some pizza for the IDF. Smile


Here's. an Aussie living close to the fighting.


One good thing about the internet. It makes a great platform for confronting and combating the BS usually put out by the media. Got him linked so I can follow the news.


Yes it does. It's amazing how much the internet has made a difference.
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tony7914



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 3:22 pm    Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.]

Gaza truce takes hold, Israel troops begin leaving

Quote:
JERUSALEM – The Israeli army says it has begun withdrawing its troops from Gaza after ending a three-week offensive in the territory.

The move comes shortly after Gaza's Hamas rulers announced a one-week cease-fire.

The Israeli military would not say how many troops it is pulling out. But tanks were rolling out early Sunday and smiling infantry soldiers were seen walking toward the border.

Israel announced a unilateral cease-fire late Saturday. It says it will keep at least some troops in Gaza while arrangements are made to prevent Hamas from rearming.

THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below.

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) — Hamas offered Israel an immediate weeklong truce Sunday, hours after Israel silenced its guns and grounded its aircraft, but the Islamic militant group conditioned long-term quiet on a complete Israeli withdrawal from the territory.

Militant rockets peppered southern Israel ahead of the Palestinian truce offer, threatening to re-ignite three weeks of violence that killed more than 1,200 Palestinians — more than half of them civilians, Gaza officials said — and turned the streets of Hamas-ruled Gaza into battlegrounds.

In Gaza, Palestinians loaded vans and donkey carts with mattresses and ventured out to see what was left of their homes after Israel's punishing air and ground assault. Bulldozers shoved aside rubble in Gaza City to clear a path for cars. Medical workers sifting through mounds of concrete said they recovered 100 bodies amid the debris.

Israel mounted the offensive three weeks ago to halt years of rocket attacks, but despite the latest barrage, the government spokesman said Israel's cease-fire offer stood. Thirteen Israelis died during the offensive, including four killed by rocket fire.

"We will honor our cease-fire as we said last night and will only act to defend ourselves if we see Hamas provocation," the spokesman, Mark Regev, said in response to the Hamas cease-fire announcement.

But Israel said its troops in Gaza would not leave until rocket fire halted entirely.

The Palestinian cease-fire offer was announced by military leaders in Gaza and in Damascus, Syria, the base of Gaza's exiled Hamas leaders. They did not set a time, but it appeared to be effective immediately.

In Damascus, Moussa Abu Marzouk, Hamas' deputy leader, told Syrian TV that the cease-fire would last a week to give Israel time to withdraw and open all Gaza border crossings to let humanitarian aid into the embattled seaside territory.

"We the Palestinian resistance factions declare a cease-fire from our side in Gaza and we confirm our stance that the enemy's troops must withdraw from Gaza within a week," Abu Marzouk said.

Hamas, which rejects Israel's right to exist, violently seized control of Gaza in June 2007, provoking a harsh Israeli blockade that has deepened the destitution in the territory and confined 1.4 million Palestinians to the tiny coastal strip. Egypt has also kept its border with Gaza largely sealed.

Militants did not back down from their demand that Israel ultimately open blockaded crossings, which serve as economic lifelines for Gaza.

The Hamas offer raised hopes that the cease-fire would stick more than a few hours. Militants had fired 17 rockets into Israel on Sunday, slightly injuring three people, police said, even as foreign leaders tried cement an end to the war in Egypt. Israel briefly retaliated against the rocket assaults with air and artillery strikes......................


Source.
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