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kenmabmcc



Joined: Nov 20, 2003
Posts: 7258

Location: Dunedin, New Zealand.

PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 6:30 pm    Post subject: Oil conservation

Inflating Tires Beats Coastal Drilling
Quote:
Obama was observing that coastal drilling would save us so little oil and so little money even twenty years from now, that you can actually save more money immediately by doing "simple things" such as keeping your tires properly inflated.

Where did he get that crazy idea? From George Bush's Energy Department and Environmental Protection Agency. (hat tip: Get Energy Smart! Now!)

Their joint site fueleconomy.gov is loaded with fuel-saving, money-saving tips. Keep your tires properly inflated, for example, and you can save up to 12 cents a gallon.

Compare that immediate savings from that single tip, with what coastal and Arctic National Wildlife Refuge drilling combined would get you two decades from now: 6 cents a gallon.

And that's being generous, because Bush's Energy Department says we can't expect any impact on prices from coastal drilling until the year 2030.


If that is true, it is a nobrainer.

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xavierx



Joined: Nov 06, 2004
Posts: 3871



PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 9:48 pm    Post subject:

"If it's true" - but it's not. Read here for the debunking of the numbers used in the post above.
Quote:
...
To get to the bottom of the puzzle, I tracked down the source of the statistic that Grunwald attributes to the "Bush administration." I'm pretty sure this is it: the Annual Energy Outlook 2007 with Projections to 2030, as published by the Energy Information Administration. This graph, I'm confident, is the source of the "200,000 barrels a day in 2030" claim:

(graph at site)

As you can see, the projected recovery from OCS drilling in 2030 is around 200,000 barrels per day. EIA projects recovery to begin around 2018, but as you can see from the graph, EIA projected that only a tiny percentage of the 18 billion barrels (minimum) under the OCS would be recovered.

The explanation, obviously, lies in the set of assumptions used by the EIA in creating its forecast. The forecast was not based on the amount of oil that the OCS actually contains, it was based on the amount that was predicted to be economically remunerative at the then-prevailing price of oil. The EIA report makes this explicit:

Quote:
Although a significant volume of undiscovered, technically recoverable oil and natural gas resources is added in the OCS access case, conversion of those resources to production would require both time and money. In addition, the average field size in the Pacific and Atlantic regions tends to be smaller than the average in the Gulf of Mexico, implying that a significant portion of the additional resource would not be economically attractive to develop at the reference case prices.


Aha! The obvious question, for anyone with the most rudimentary understanding of economics, is, What are the reference case prices? Here they are:

(graph at site)

That's right: the EIA, writing in early 2007, assumed that oil prices would decline from their 2006 peak; that in 2008, the price of crude oil would be around $60 a barrel; that it would continue to decline until around 2013 to a low of about $50 a barrel; and that the price would then gradually increase to a little under $60 a barrel by 2030. Those were the assumptions on which EIA concluded that it would not be economically profitable to get most OCS oil out of the ground.
...

So, the "6 cents" figure, and the 200,000 barrel figure, are based on assumptions that are no longer even close to true. Democrats should be ashamed of themselves for pushing such blatantly false numbers.
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kenmabmcc



Joined: Nov 20, 2003
Posts: 7258

Location: Dunedin, New Zealand.

PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 11:33 pm    Post subject:

At least you can save 12 cents a gallon immediately,

and not wait to 2030.

Laughing
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xavierx



Joined: Nov 06, 2004
Posts: 3871



PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:18 pm    Post subject:

And again, read. The 2030 date is a myth, spread by Democrats who want to keep us from drilling and attack Republicans.
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Sgt Schultz



Joined: Dec 07, 2002
Posts: 6829

Location: St. Louis area

PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:35 pm    Post subject:

Unless the oil being drilled for is marked strictly for US consumption it will be put on the open market and available to the highest bidder. That isn't going to lower prices.

Quote:
Douglas Holtz-Eakin, a senior advisor to McCain's campaign, acknowledged in a conference call to reporters that new offshore drilling would have no immediate effect on supplies or prices.


Link

I don't oppose all off shore drilling but the meme that it's going to immediately affect prices is a bill of goods that I just don't buy. Even as I've quoted above the McCain camp knows it too. But many drilling proponents would have you think otherwise. As our friend Warrior-poet likes to say: "follow the money".
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xavierx



Joined: Nov 06, 2004
Posts: 3871



PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:03 pm    Post subject:

I don't expect immediate effects, either. But it won't take 20 or even 10 years. Estimates from real experts say 5 years tops, because we already know where we need to drill (we've touched the fringes of big fields but aren't allowed to follow them any further) and we already have the equipment in place to do the job.

I should say I don't expect huge impacts immediately. If Congress voted to allow drilling, there would be some impact, as speculators (the evil people Democrats are blaming) would have incentives to bet on lower prices in the future as opposed to higher prices.
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Sgt Schultz



Joined: Dec 07, 2002
Posts: 6829

Location: St. Louis area

PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:08 pm    Post subject:

There are a lot of factors in play.

Quote:
There are some serious constraints to expanded drilling, however, including labor and equipment shortages. Only a limited number of shipyards, scattered throughout the world, are capable of building the necessary $700 million-dollar drilling rig, and many of the rigs that are being built are going to Brazil, West Africa, and Southeast Asia, where the oil business is also booming. Though a record number of rigs are under construction, the tight supply of equipment would constrain exploration and drilling even if Congress were to open up more acres.


Even as Republicans clamor for more, it's rarely been busier for offsh... oil dr

As usual reality is hardly black and white.
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kenmabmcc



Joined: Nov 20, 2003
Posts: 7258

Location: Dunedin, New Zealand.

PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:34 pm    Post subject:

You say "Real experts", ...you mean people in the oil industry I suppose,
who have a "real interest" in being optimistic in their timelines...
Laughing

There could be a good case made for leaving this oil to be extracted later when, past peak, [if we have not passed peak already] oil will be a really valuable commodity in a few years time.

The best way to keep oil prices down is to use less of it,
US fuel shock threatens permanent dent in demand
Quote:
A government report showed that during the first five months of the year, U.S. highway travel was down 29.8 billion miles, or 2.4 percent, from the same period in 2007.
"Demand is certainly taking a big hit now," said Peter Beutel, president of oil consultancy Cameron Hanover in New Canaan, Connecticut.
"The high price of energy has seeped into just about every part of our lives and consumers have found themselves in a position that they simply have to cut back on everything. I do not think they're likely to change those habits back easily."
While much of the decline in demand appears discretionary, there is mounting evidence the rally in oil prices has triggered more permanent shifts like an increasingly fuel-efficient auto fleet.

which has led to a drop in oil prices.
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xavierx



Joined: Nov 06, 2004
Posts: 3871



PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 10:22 am    Post subject:

No, Ken, if you studied economics at all, reducing demand is only one side of the "supply and demand" equation. Increasing supply has the same effect. Even better would be doing both, which is what the Republican plan has been - increase supply now because it's easier in the short term, and decrease demand in the long run by investing in alternative, renewable sources that require 20-50 years to develop.

This is why their plan is labeled "Find More, Use Less".
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bern



Joined: Mar 12, 2007
Posts: 887

Location: ann arbor

PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 10:27 am    Post subject: Re: Oil conservation [Login to view extended thread Info.]

To me the argument isn't about the specifics of oil drilling yes, or no. The argument is about central planning of economic issues.

Should we drill now or wait? I really don't know. (and neither does the government) But I do know that having laws restricting our ability to do so when economically viable is not in our best interests. There is plenty of evidence that centrally planned economies just don't work. Governmet bureaucrats make decisions often arbitrarily, often under political influence, and often with nothing at stake for them if they decide wrong. None of this is true for the entrepreneurs who actually do the work. And this is true in any industry, not just oil. Governmental meddling in any industrial issue should be rare and minimal.

For those of you not old enough to remember, it was governmental pressure on the mortgage industry to encourage "home ownership" and avoid "redlining" in poor neighborhoods that led ultimately to the housing crisis. Prior to governmental mandates to issue obviously risky loans, no mortgage company in its right mind would have done so.

I think that governmental mandates (rationing?) will not be needed to reduce our oil consumption. Market forces seem to be working as we sit here. And these same forces will lead to creativity in some individuals to find substitutes for oil where it is presently used.
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Warrior-poet



Joined: Feb 16, 2008
Posts: 101



PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 2:56 pm    Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.]

Actually more like 2 to 3 years. The gulf already has all the lines we need to transport oil. We just need to build and drill. Ten offshore rigs plus ten refineries in three years. Complete and producing. If only congress and the 5 stooges get out of the way.
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Sgt Schultz



Joined: Dec 07, 2002
Posts: 6829

Location: St. Louis area

PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 4:44 pm    Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.]

As I pointed out with the link above there is the matter of getting the equipment to drill in the first place. Going to have to take a number and wait.
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xavierx



Joined: Nov 06, 2004
Posts: 3871



PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 7:48 pm    Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.]

Sgt Schultz wrote:
As I pointed out with the link above there is the matter of getting the equipment to drill in the first place. Going to have to take a number and wait.

I don't have a link because it was on the news, but what I heard was that we already have enough equipment in the Gulf to do the job, they just need to be allowed to move it to productive places.
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kenmabmcc



Joined: Nov 20, 2003
Posts: 7258

Location: Dunedin, New Zealand.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 11:38 pm    Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.]

xavierx wrote:
Sgt Schultz wrote:
As I pointed out with the link above there is the matter of getting the equipment to drill in the first place. Going to have to take a number and wait.

I don't have a link because it was on the news, but what I heard was that we already have enough equipment in the Gulf to do the job, they just need to be allowed to move it to productive places.


Are you saying that the oil companys are drilling in the unproductive places ?
That doesn't sound right.
From what I read on the net there are very few suitable rigs available.

Question
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kenmabmcc



Joined: Nov 20, 2003
Posts: 7258

Location: Dunedin, New Zealand.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 11:51 pm    Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.]

xavierx wrote:
No, Ken, if you studied economics at all, reducing demand is only one side of the "supply and demand" equation. Increasing supply has the same effect. Even better would be doing both, which is what the Republican plan has been - increase supply now because it's easier in the short term, and decrease demand in the long run by investing in alternative, renewable sources that require 20-50 years to develop.

This is why their plan is labeled "Find More, Use Less".


If OPEC and other oil producing states wanted they keep the price up by decreasing production.[simple economics]

"Find More" would work if oilfields could be found that equalled the combined amount of oil in Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Iraq.

"Use Less" is the best viable option, that has been promoted for many years,
to deaf ears.
Solar and Wind just lack the federal will to get going,
while Washington still gives money to the financially bloated oil company's.


Last edited by kenmabmcc on Sat Aug 09, 2008 11:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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kenmabmcc



Joined: Nov 20, 2003
Posts: 7258

Location: Dunedin, New Zealand.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 11:55 pm    Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.]

Embarassed
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bern



Joined: Mar 12, 2007
Posts: 887

Location: ann arbor

PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 12:28 am    Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.]

kenmabmcc wrote:
Solar and Wind just lack the federal will to get going,
while Washington still gives money to the financially bloated oil company's.


It is not clear to me why you think the federal government is required to solve the wind and solar problems. When the technology is sufficiently advanced that it can compete with decreasing oil supplies, it will flourish without a cent of government funding.

Right now, Nuclear is the only technology mature enough to completely replace old carbon burning energy sources. And the government is standing in the way there. Stupid!

In the meantime, we need a mix of drilling, conservation, and inventiveness, none of which the federal government is able to do without taxing us out of our homes, or restricting our liberties unacceptably.
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kenmabmcc



Joined: Nov 20, 2003
Posts: 7258

Location: Dunedin, New Zealand.

PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 5:29 am    Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.]

bern wrote:
Right now, Nuclear is the only technology mature enough to completely replace old carbon burning energy sources. And the government is standing in the way there. Stupid!


Right now, nuclear energy would not exist without government funding, government loan guarantees, and government insurance.

If solar and wind had a fraction of the money wasted on these potential nuclear accidents,
they would be able to achieve economies of scale similar to what Denmark has done with wind power.
Flush With Energy
Quote:
There is little whining here about Denmark having $10-a-gallon gasoline because of high energy taxes. The shaping of the market with high energy standards and taxes on fossil fuels by the Danish government has actually had “a positive impact on job creation,” added Hedegaard. “For example, the wind industry — it was nothing in the 1970s. Today, one-third of all terrestrial wind turbines in the world come from Denmark.” In the last 10 years, Denmark’s exports of energy efficiency products have tripled. Energy technology exports rose 8 percent in 2007 to more than $10.5 billion in 2006, compared with a 2 percent rise in 2007 for Danish exports as a whole.

“It is one of our fastest-growing export areas,” said Hedegaard. It is one reason that unemployment in Denmark today is 1.6 percent. In 1973, said Hedegaard, “we got 99 percent of our energy from the Middle East. Today it is zero.”


Last edited by kenmabmcc on Sun Aug 10, 2008 6:05 am; edited 1 time in total
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Asakari



Joined: Aug 10, 2008
Posts: 1

Location: USA

PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 6:05 am    Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.]

I find the potential nuclear disasters highly exaggerated compared to the oil and coal accidents over the decades. It's deluded nuclear waste that is incapable of being used in weaponry, and yet they act like it's an atomic bomb waiting to happen.

Edit:
I felt that this video was needed.
http://fora.tv/2007/09/13/More_Nuclear_Energy_Why_America_Needs_it_Now
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xavierx



Joined: Nov 06, 2004
Posts: 3871



PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 10:04 am    Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.]

kenmabmcc wrote:
"Find More" would work if oilfields could be found that equalled the combined amount of oil in Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Iraq.

Read the news, Ken. That's exactly what we have in Oil Shale alone (actually, we have MORE than they all do combined), and on top of that we have Anwar and off shore fields. We're just not allowed to use them, thanks to the Democrats.

And yes, this is now solely the fault of Democrats, now. It's their leadership who won't let us even talk about it, even going so far as to prevent normal House procedures to avoid discussion.

By the way, what happened to Pelosi's promises of bipartisanship, ethics, and fair play? More hot air as usual? She should be our alternative energy source!
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