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Israel's Policy Is Perfectly 'Proportionate'

 
  

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tony7914



Joined: Dec 24, 2004
Posts: 4965

Location: Peru Indiana

PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 1:10 am    Post subject: Israel's Policy Is Perfectly 'Proportionate'

Quote:
Israel's actions in Gaza are justified under international law, and Israel should be commended for its self-defense against terrorism. Article 51 of the United Nations Charter reserves to every nation the right to engage in self-defense against armed attacks. The only limitation international law places on a democracy is that its actions must satisfy the principle of proportionality.

Since Israel ended its occupation of Gaza, Hamas has fired thousands of rockets designed to kill civilians into southern Israel. The residents of Sderot -- which have borne the brunt of the attacks -- have approximately 15 seconds from launch time to run into a shelter. Although deliberately targeting civilians is a war crime, terrorists firing at Sderot are so proud of their actions that they sign their weapons.

When Barack Obama visited Sderot this summer and saw the remnants of these rockets, he reacted by saying that if his two daughters were exposed to rocket attacks in their home, he would do everything in his power to stop such attacks. He understands how the terrorists exploit the morality of democracies.

In a recent incident related to me by the former head of the Israeli air force, Israeli intelligence learned that a family's house in Gaza was being used to manufacture rockets. The Israeli military gave the residents 30 minutes to leave. Instead, the owner called Hamas, which sent mothers carrying babies to the house..............


Source.

Good read. Wink
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dobbie6060



Joined: Aug 24, 2007
Posts: 551



PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:36 am    Post subject: US Aid $8.49 million a day for Israel makes 'Might is Right'

Israel receives about $3 billion in direct foreign assistance each year, which is roughly one-fifth of America's entire foreign aid budget... This largesse is especially striking when one realizes that Israel is now a wealthy industrial state with a per capita income roughly equal to South Korea or Spain.”
-- John J. Mearsheimer and Stephen M. Walt
"The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy"

The truth about those Hamas rockets
By Dennis Rahkonen
Five years ago, the Bush administration lied about weapons of mass destruction to dupe us into supporting an illegal, immoral invasion of Iraq.
A few days ago, Israel trotted out only an infinitesimally more credible excuse -- the Hamas rockets case -- as justification for its own murderous shock and awe in Gaza, a long-planned campaign perniciously aimed at ousting a “regime” that came to power via popular, democratic vote.
Yes, such rockets exist, but they’re little more than slingshots against Israel’s incredible military might, and they’re used out of desperation by Palestinians who’ve never been accorded the democratic space within which to gain redress of their eminently just grievances.
Israeli apologists have presented absurd propaganda about those devices.
We’ve been asked, for instance, what would we do if rockets were being launched on our homes in New York or Texas, from Canada or Mexico?
The proper answer is that, if those two nations had been unlawfully occupied or embargoed by the United States for 60 years of relentless oppression and repression, and if all attempts at peaceful change had been forcefully prevented or scuttled by the U.S., then such attacks would be an understandable, indeed a justifiable attempt at gaining intolerably deferred liberty.
Our appropriate response wouldn’t be to bomb the hell out of the nearest Canadian or Mexican city, but to collectively look into mirrors and earnestly ask ourselves, “What have we done wrong to incur their wrath?”
And then act to correct the situation.
Conscientious Israelis acknowledge that the Hamas rockets rationale is fraudulent.
For instance, Jerusalem Post writer Larry Derfner has noted, “We don’t want to see how people in Gaza are living, we block it out of our minds -- which, I suppose, is natural for a society at war, but which also keeps that war going longer than it might if we would recognize that Gaza is getting so much the worst of it.
“The [Palestinian] Kassam [rockets] have terrorized the 25,000 people in Sderot and its environs, but have caused very, very few deaths or serious wounds. By contrast, Israel has terrorized 1.5 million Gazans, locked them inside their awfully narrow borders, throttled their economy, and killed and seriously wounded thousands of them . . .
“This is crazy. Israel is the superpower of the Middle East,
but because we still think we’re the Jews of Europe in the 1930s, or the Israelites under Pharaoh, we spend a lot more time fighting our enemies than we might if we looked at the whole picture, not just our half of it . . .”
http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_4186.shtml
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CowpokeBob



Joined: Feb 07, 2006
Posts: 1501

Location: South Carolina, USA

PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 10:16 am    Post subject:

[/quote]Lets be truthful shall we.
Quote:
The truth about those Hamas rockets

Quote:
Yes, such rockets exist, but they’re little more than slingshots against Israel’s incredible military might, and they’re used out of desperation by Palestinians who’ve never been accorded the democratic space within which to gain redress of their eminently just grievances.

They are not being fired against the might of the Israeli military. They are being fired at innocent men, women, and children whose only crime is to live within range of the missiles. The last part gets even better. These same poor desperate Palistinians have over the years through thier elected governments had access to every democratic trapping used by the rest of the world and instead have decided to support the efforts of the Hamas government and those before it in a war against Israel, the stated aim being the elimination of the state of Israel. One shouldn't declare such a war if one is not ready to endure the cost of such.
Quote:
We’ve been asked, for instance, what would we do if rockets were being launched on our homes in New York or Texas, from Canada or Mexico?
The proper answer is that, if those two nations had been unlawfully occupied or embargoed by the United States for 60 years of relentless oppression and repression, and if all attempts at peaceful change had been forcefully prevented or scuttled by the U.S., then such attacks would be an understandable, indeed a justifiable attempt at gaining intolerably deferred liberty.

Proper answer? Sounds more like an excuse to commit murder to me. The truth is that the Palestinians have not been oppressed, occupied, or embargoed by the US (or Israel). Thier suffering is a direct result of the decisions they made and support. The vast majority of financial aid to the Palestinians comes from the US. Maybe they should ask what has been done with all that money. Used to buy rockets maybe?
Quote:
Our appropriate response wouldn’t be to bomb the hell out of the nearest Canadian or Mexican city, but to collectively look into mirrors and earnestly ask ourselves, “What have we done wrong to incur their wrath?”
And then act to correct the situation.

You have to laugh when reading this part. Anyone that would believe that is beyond help. History speaks louder than anything I could say. Allow me to offer these two examples of what we would do though there are plenty more: Hiroshima and recently, Afghanistan. If we were attacked in the manner that israel is being attacked we would respond in exactly the same way. if you fired rokets at my family I would indeed kill yours. Its called survival.
Quote:
Conscientious Israelis acknowledge that the Hamas rockets rationale is fraudulent.
For instance, Jerusalem Post writer Larry Derfner has noted, “We don’t want to see how people in Gaza are living, we block it out of our minds -- which, I suppose, is natural for a society at war, but which also keeps that war going longer than it might if we would recognize that Gaza is getting so much the worst of it.

All the Israelis I've heard from are well aware of how the Palistinians are living and would like to see thier situation improved. As for the last statement there has been no let up in the launching of rockets by Hamas against Israel regardless of what israel does. Israel attacks in retaliation for those attacks, rockets are fired. Israel pulls completely out of Gaza, rockets are fired. The war will go on because Hamas wants to get rid of Israel. Not because of the plight of the Palestinians, a mostly self inflicted plight.
Quote:
“The [Palestinian] Kassam [rockets] have terrorized the 25,000 people in Sderot and its environs, but have caused very, very few deaths or serious wounds. By contrast, Israel has terrorized 1.5 million Gazans, locked them inside their awfully narrow borders, throttled their economy, and killed and seriously wounded thousands of them . . .
“This is crazy. Israel is the superpower of the Middle East

You know what, I agree this is crazy. To have someone declare war on you and then for you to feel sorry because they aren't killing as many of you as you are of them is just insane. Just as insane is attacking a super power and expecting them not to pound you for it. As for borders they are what they are. Either accept them or do whats being done. Go to war to increase them. The only way to enlarge them peacefully is for Israel to give up its soveriegn territory. Israel has already done this. The response was more rocket and mortar fire. Much of the disputed land was captured by israel after being attacked by all of its neighbors and paid for with its people's blood. I wouldn't give up an inch of soil if i were them. Would you allow your enemy to maintain a thriving economy while they wage war against you? I think not.
As for the thousands being killed and wounded. The majority of the dead as reported by the Palistinian authorities are Hamas fighters. Yes many civilians are being killed and wounded and that is unfortunate but its also a price of war. The Hamas government refuses to build any structures or take any measures to protect its civilian population even while its fighters have such protection. The Hamas government deliberately places its civilians in the lne of fire to gain sympathy with thier deaths. That's the painful truth here. Hamas is responsible for the safety of its citizens, not Israel. That many thousands more have not died is testament to Israels attempts to minimize such deaths.

There are your truths and mine. Lets lay them all out and people can decide on thier own truths.
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xavierx



Joined: Nov 06, 2004
Posts: 5427



PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 10:23 am    Post subject:

The anti-US and anti-Israel Kool-Aid is strong today.

dobbie6060, if your house was being attacked, you'd do whatever it took to remove the threat. Israel has the same right.

Oh, and in case you forgot, Israel left Gaza completely, and since then, Hamas has continued its terrorist attacks. Hamas brought this on themselves and on their people.
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tony7914



Joined: Dec 24, 2004
Posts: 4965

Location: Peru Indiana

PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:23 am    Post subject: Re: US Aid $8.49 million a day for Israel makes 'Might is R [Login to view extended thread Info.]

dobbie6060 wrote:
Israel receives about $3 billion in direct foreign assistance each year, which is roughly one-fifth of America's entire foreign aid budget... This largesse is especially striking when one realizes that Israel is now a wealthy industrial state with a per capita income roughly equal to South Korea or Spain.”
-- John J. Mearsheimer and Stephen M. Walt
"The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy"

The truth about those Hamas rockets
By Dennis Rahkonen
Five years ago, the Bush administration lied about weapons of mass destruction to dupe us into supporting an illegal, immoral invasion of Iraq.
A few days ago, Israel trotted out only an infinitesimally more credible excuse -- the Hamas rockets case -- as justification for its own murderous shock and awe in Gaza, a long-planned campaign perniciously aimed at ousting a “regime” that came to power via popular, democratic vote.
Yes, such rockets exist, but they’re little more than slingshots against Israel’s incredible military might, and they’re used out of desperation by Palestinians who’ve never been accorded the democratic space within which to gain redress of their eminently just grievances.
Israeli apologists have presented absurd propaganda about those devices.
We’ve been asked, for instance, what would we do if rockets were being launched on our homes in New York or Texas, from Canada or Mexico?
The proper answer is that, if those two nations had been unlawfully occupied or embargoed by the United States for 60 years of relentless oppression and repression, and if all attempts at peaceful change had been forcefully prevented or scuttled by the U.S., then such attacks would be an understandable, indeed a justifiable attempt at gaining intolerably deferred liberty.
Our appropriate response wouldn’t be to bomb the hell out of the nearest Canadian or Mexican city, but to collectively look into mirrors and earnestly ask ourselves, “What have we done wrong to incur their wrath?”
And then act to correct the situation.
Conscientious Israelis acknowledge that the Hamas rockets rationale is fraudulent.
For instance, Jerusalem Post writer Larry Derfner has noted, “We don’t want to see how people in Gaza are living, we block it out of our minds -- which, I suppose, is natural for a society at war, but which also keeps that war going longer than it might if we would recognize that Gaza is getting so much the worst of it.
“The [Palestinian] Kassam [rockets] have terrorized the 25,000 people in Sderot and its environs, but have caused very, very few deaths or serious wounds. By contrast, Israel has terrorized 1.5 million Gazans, locked them inside their awfully narrow borders, throttled their economy, and killed and seriously wounded thousands of them . . .
“This is crazy. Israel is the superpower of the Middle East,
but because we still think we’re the Jews of Europe in the 1930s, or the Israelites under Pharaoh, we spend a lot more time fighting our enemies than we might if we looked at the whole picture, not just our half of it . . .”
http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_4186.shtml


This is the biggest pile of dung I have read in a long time but since you feel the need to debate with op-ed pieces I'll be happy to oblige you.

Quote:
December 29, 2008 DEAD Jews aren't news, but killing terrorists outrages global activists. On Saturday, Israel struck back powerfully against its tormentors. Now Israel's the villain. Again.

How long will it be until the UN General Assembly passes a resolution creating an international Holocaust Appreciation Day?

Israel's airstrikes against confirmed Hamas terrorist targets in the Gaza Strip were overdue, discriminating and skillful. So far, this retaliatory campaign has been a superb example of how to employ postmodern airpower.

Instead of bombing empty buildings in the dead of night in the hope of convincing bloodthirsty monsters to become peace-loving floral arrangers - the US Air Force version of "Shock and Awe" - the Israeli Defense Force aimed to kill terrorists.

Israel's attack aircraft appear to have accomplished that part of the mission. As I write, some 300 terrorist dead have been reported in Gaza, while the propaganda-savvy information office of Hamas has strug- gled to prove that 20 civilians died.

Given the fact that Hamas adheres to the terrorist practice of locating command sites, arsenals and training facilities in heavily populated areas, the results suggest that the IDF - supported by first-rate intelligence work - may have executed the most accurate wave of airstrikes in history, with a 15-to-1 terrorist-to-civilian kill ratio.

The bad news is that it still won't be enough. While Israel has delivered a painful blow against Hamas, it's still not a paralyzing hit. The only way to neuter such a terror threat - even temporarily - is to go in on the ground and scour every room, basement and underground tunnel in a region.

That would mean high Israeli casualties and, of course, condemnation of Israel's self-defense efforts by every self-righteous, corrupt and bigoted organization and government on earth, from Turtle Bay to Tehran.

What have been Israel's "crimes?" Not "stealing Palestinian land," but making that land productive, while exposing the incompetence and sloth of Arab culture.

Israel's crime isn't striking back at terror, but demonstrating, year after year, that a country in the Middle East can be governed without resort to terror. Israel's crime hasn't been denying Arab rights, but insisting on human rights for women and minorities.

Israel's crime has been making democracy work where tyranny prevailed for 5,000 years. Israel's crime has been survival against overwhelming odds, while legions of Arab nationalists, Islamist extremists and Western leftists want every Jew dead.

But Israel's greatest crime was to expose the global cult of victimhood, to prove that hard work, fortitude and courage could overcome even history's grimmest disaster.

Was it a crime to hand Gaza back to Palestinian authorities, to give peace a chance? Look what Israel received in return for trading land for peace.

Let us never forget the fundamental truth that, while Israel longs to live in peace with its neighbors, those neighbors openly profess the desire to eliminate Israel and exterminate its people.

Indeed, Arab and regional jealousy toward Israel is so all-consuming, so necessary to excuse the Arab art of failure, that even these judicious airstrikes will hardly make a dent in the terrorist threat.

Unless Israel sends in ground forces for the long haul - and thousands of IDF reservists are being mobilized - there will be, at best, a temporary respite from terror attacks. Even a new occupation of Gaza would not fully solve the problem.

A crucial point about interfaith and interethnic conflicts that we sheltered Americans refuse to understand is that, all too often, there's just no good solution - and not even a bad solution, short of acts of barbarism.

It's a rare conflict that results in an enduring peace. Unintended consequences abound. At times, you fight just to buy time, to gain breathing space - or merely to frustrate an enemy's designs for a limited period.

That's the situation Israel faces: No hope of an ultimate victory, but a constant fight to survive. Enemies who believe their god ordains their actions can't be placated. For faith-fueled terrorists, such as the core members of Hamas, the struggle with Israel's a zero-sum game. Compromise is, at most, an expedient tool, never an acceptable end state.

What will we see in the coming days? Much depends on Israel's resolve. The most probable scenario is that Hamas will continue launching terror rockets for a few weeks to salve its wounded vanity and maintain the image of "resistance," but will ultimately reduce its attacks against Israel - while it rebuilds its cadres and restocks its arsenal.

Israel will have bought time, not peace.

What might Israel have done better? It's essential to take out the top terrorist leaders. But Israel's government remains reluctant to target the cowardly Hamas leaders hiding in Damascus - or even the top terrorists remaining in Gaza.

For terrorist bosses, the rank-and-file are disposable and replaceable. You can't just kill the gunmen. You have to kill the names.

We may sympathize with the average Palestinian family, exploited by generations of corrupt leaders and now caught in yet another round of violence. But let us never forget that Israel hasn't fired thousands of blind rockets into Palestinian cities, that Israeli suicide bombers don't attack Arab restaurants and bus stops, and that Israel seeks to avoid harming civilians - while Hamas seeks to kill as many civilians as possible.

In a world where there are no good answers, Israel just answered as best it could. The world's response? "How dare Jews defend themselves."

Humanity doesn't progress. It just changes clothes.


Source.
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dobbie6060



Joined: Aug 24, 2007
Posts: 551



PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:41 am    Post subject: Incredible shrinking Palestine map since 1946. [Login to view extended thread Info.]

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/sheffield/2008/10/410616.html

1917 [arabs 100%]
1947 [jews 56% arabs44%]
1948-1967 [jews 78% arabs 22%]
1995 jews 90%

In August this year two small boats the "Free Gaza" and the "Liberty" with 44 ordinary people on board succeeded in breaking the Israeli blockade of the Gaza strip. [bringing fuel&food&medicine]
Hedy Epstein an octogenarian survivor of the Third Reich, a campaigner for human rights and ardent opponent of Zionism, speaks of her experiences opposing the apartheid Israeli state and her involvement with the Free Gaza campaign's 240 mile voyages from Cyprus to Gaza.
http://www.freegaza.org/

January "01, 2009 --Former Georgia Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney has called upon President-Elect Barack Obama to "please, say something about the humanitarian crisis that is being experienced by the Palestinian people, by the people of Gaza." McKinney spoke to CNN news from the Lebanese city of Tyre, where she had debarked from the relief vessel Dignity after it was rammed on the high seas by an Israeli patrol boat, early Tuesday morning. Passengers also report the Israelis fired machine guns into the water near their ship...
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article21593.htm
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xavierx



Joined: Nov 06, 2004
Posts: 5427



PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:50 am    Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.]

I realize this is humor, but it seems appropriate in this thread:


 <<-- click to expand
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CowpokeBob



Joined: Feb 07, 2006
Posts: 1501

Location: South Carolina, USA

PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 4:12 pm    Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.]

xavierx wrote:
I realize this is humor, but it seems appropriate in this thread:


 <<-- click to expand


Well it could pass for humor if it weren't so darn true.
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tony7914



Joined: Dec 24, 2004
Posts: 4965

Location: Peru Indiana

PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 10:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Incredible shrinking Palestine map since 1946. [Login to view extended thread Info.]

dobbie6060 wrote:
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/sheffield/2008/10/410616.html

1917 [arabs 100%]
1947 [jews 56% arabs44%]
1948-1967 [jews 78% arabs 22%]
1995 jews 90%

In August this year two small boats the "Free Gaza" and the "Liberty" with 44 ordinary people on board succeeded in breaking the Israeli blockade of the Gaza strip. [bringing fuel&food&medicine]
Hedy Epstein an octogenarian survivor of the Third Reich, a campaigner for human rights and ardent opponent of Zionism, speaks of her experiences opposing the apartheid Israeli state and her involvement with the Free Gaza campaign's 240 mile voyages from Cyprus to Gaza.
http://www.freegaza.org/

January "01, 2009 --Former Georgia Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney has called upon President-Elect Barack Obama to "please, say something about the humanitarian crisis that is being experienced by the Palestinian people, by the people of Gaza." McKinney spoke to CNN news from the Lebanese city of Tyre, where she had debarked from the relief vessel Dignity after it was rammed on the high seas by an Israeli patrol boat, early Tuesday morning. Passengers also report the Israelis fired machine guns into the water near their ship...
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article21593.htm


Humanitarian crisis................yes it looks like they are suffering horribly Watch me.

Humanitarian aid anyone?
Watch me.
72 more loads of food and medicine.
60 more on Jan.1.
Israel and Egypt have medical assistance on their borders Watch me.

More info.

Something McKinney forgot to mention
Quote:
Israel has declared the coastal territory a closed military zone and said the Free Gaza Movement boat would not be permitted to dock.
Yigal Palmor, a spokesman for Israel's Foreign Ministry, said the boat failed to respond to Israeli naval radio contact, and that an Israeli vessel "clashed with the ship."

Source.
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tony7914



Joined: Dec 24, 2004
Posts: 4965

Location: Peru Indiana

PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:28 pm    Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.]

xavierx wrote:
I realize this is humor, but it seems appropriate in this thread:


 <<-- click to expand


More appropriate than you know.

Quote:
So what have the Palestinians got to complain about?


How about their children being used as human sheilds?

Watch me.

How about their schools being used as a launch site?

Watch me.
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tony7914



Joined: Dec 24, 2004
Posts: 4965

Location: Peru Indiana

PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 2:21 am    Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.]

Quote:
The Hamas government has placed dozens of Fatah members under house arrest out of fear that they might exploit the current IDF operation to regain control of the Gaza Strip......


Might be a good thing for the Palestinians if Fatah did regain control of Gaza.

Quote:
Fatah officials in Ramallah told The Jerusalem Post that Hamas militiamen had been assaulting many Fatah activists since the beginning of the operation last Saturday. They said at least 75 activists were shot in the legs while others had their hands broken.

Wisam Abu Jalhoum, a Fatah activist from the Jabalya refugee camp, was shot in the legs by Hamas militiamen for allegedly expressing joy over the IDF air strikes on Hamas targets.

"Hamas is very nervous, because they feel that their end is nearing," a senior Fatah official said. "They have been waging a brutal campaign against Fatah members in the Gaza Strip."

Meanwhile, sources close to Hamas revealed over the weekend that the movement had "executed" more than 35 Palestinians who were suspected of collaborating with Israel and were being held in various Hamas security installations..........


Source.

Apparently Hamas doesn't like competition either.
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dobbie6060



Joined: Aug 24, 2007
Posts: 551



PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:25 pm    Post subject: No Rabid Rants From the Israel's newspaper, Haaretz [Login to view extended thread Info.]

Zvi Barel writes:
"Six months ago Israel asked and received a cease-fire from Hamas. It unilaterally violated it when it blew up a tunnel, while still asking Egypt to get the Islamic group to hold its fire." Yet the U.S. media refers that only Hamas violated the ceasefire.

One Sunday analysis at Haaretz:
"A million and a half human beings, most of them downcast and desperate refugees, live in the conditions of a giant jail, fertile ground for another round of bloodletting. The fact that Hamas may have gone too far with its rockets is not the justification of the Israeli policy for the past few decades, for which it justly merits an Iraqi shoe to the face."

"Neighborhood Bully Strikes Again" -- by Gideon Levy: "Israel embarked yesterday on yet another unnecessary, ill-fated war. On July 16, 2006, four days after the start of the Second Lebanon War, I wrote: 'Every neighborhood has one, a loud-mouthed bully who shouldn't be provoked into anger... Not that the bully's not right - someone did harm him. But the reaction, what a reaction!' Two and a half years later, these words repeat themselves, to our horror, with chilling precision. Within the span of a few hours on a Saturday afternoon, the IDF sowed death and destruction on a scale that the Qassam rockets never approached in all their years, and Operation 'Cast Lead' is only in its infancy."

Yossi Sarid, writes: "I can only hope that this time, for a change, we will know when to stop. This war must be described from the get-go as a war 'to be on the safe side,' rather than of necessity, and it is still unclear whether the last missile fired will be fired by us or by them."

Amira Hass, the paper's correspondent in Gaza, reports: "There are many corpses and wounded, every moment another casualty is added to the list of the dead, and there is no more room in the morgue. Relatives search among the bodies and the wounded in order to bring the dead quickly to burial. A mother whose three school-age children were killed, and are piled one on top of the other in the morgue, screams and then cries, screams again and then is silent."

From the lead Haaretz editorial: "[T]he inherent desire for retribution does not necessarily have to blind us to the view from the day after....Israel's violation of the lull in November expedited the deterioration that gave birth to the war of yesterday. But even if this continues for many days and even weeks, it will end in an agreement, or at least an understanding similar to that reached last June."

UPDATE: A McClatchy dispatch quotes Daniel Levy, a political analyst in Israel who once served as an adviser to Ehud Barak, who is leading the military campaign against Hamas: "I don't see how this ends well, even if, in two weeks time, it looks like it ends well."

Haaretz has just posted this from another columnist, Tom Segev: "[T]he assault on Gaza does not first and foremost demand moral condemnation - it demands a few historical reminders. Both the justification given for it and the chosen targets are a replay of the same basic assumptions that have proven wrong time after time. Yet Israel still pulls them out of its hat again and again, in one war after another."

And this from another columnist, Akiva Eldar: "The tremendous population density in the Gaza Strip does not allow a "surgical operation" over an extended period that would minimize damage to civilian populations. The difficult images from the Strip will soon replace those of the damage inflicted by Qassam rockets in the western Negev. The scale of losses, which works in 'favor' of the Palestinians, will return Israel to the role of Goliath."
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tony7914



Joined: Dec 24, 2004
Posts: 4965

Location: Peru Indiana

PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:45 pm    Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.]

@dobbie6060
You have links to what you posted?

Here's something to think about.

Quote:
The current mythology in the Arab world, and much of Europe, is that whatever damage done to Israel is deserved, and any harm that comes to Palestinians, even terrorists, is not. Good versus evil and all that. The good guys can do no wrong, and the evil ones are evil in whatever they do. So when Palestinians continue to fire rockets and mortar shells into Israel, and Israel responds by cutting off supplies going into Gaza (rather than launching a military operation to shut down the terrorist groups, and rescue one of their soldiers), the Israelis are declared the bad guys by the Arab world, and by many in Europe, and elsewhere in the West, as well.

The Arabs see all this as a victory, and celebrate it as such. According to Arab thinking, the Israelis are losing their fight for survival, and it's only a matter of time before the Arabs win. This kind of thinking has influenced the Arabs for centuries; the idea that time is on their side and that eventually there will be an Arab triumph, despite centuries of defeat and failure. So far this hasn't worked, but this myth is optimistic and future oriented. However, many Arabs are getting tired of the myth, but the majority continue to believe. This means that, while most Moslems condemned the recent Islamic terrorist attack in Mumbai, India, many believed that the slaughter of six Jews there was somehow justified. The Mumbai massacre has put this entire pro-terrorist media scam in a difficult position. But it won't matter, because many Moslems believe that it's all God's Will.

All this does not mean Hamas does not come in for some criticism. Many in Gaza do not care for Hamas attempts to set up a religious dictatorship, that includes lifestyle police (as in Saudi Arabia and Iran). Gazans also note that, while Israel allows enough supplies into prevent starvation or epidemics, Gaza controls the smuggling tunnels, which carry a lot of non-essential consumer goods, and Hamas taxes this trade heavily. So Hamas benefits from the Israeli blockade, which keeps out cheaper products. Hamas also tolerates competing terror groups in Gaza, because Hamas knows it can depend on these terrorists to help out if the more moderate Gazans tried to rebel. In short, Hamas, once elected to power in Gaza, is never going to give up control. Gaza is, in effect, a religious dictatorship like Iran. And like Iran, Gaza is now dedicated to the destruction of Israel.

Hamas continues its feud with rival Fatah, which controls the West Bank. This extends to Hamas not allowing anyone from Gaza from going on the Hajj (the annual pilgrimage to Mecca in Saudi Arabia). Every Moslem nation has a deal with Saudi Arabia regarding how many may make the Hajj, and Saudi Arabia issues visas for the two million people allowed to visit. But Saudi Arabia is hostile to Hamas (which is backed by Iran, which in turn believes it, and not Saudi Arabia, should control the Moslem holy places in Mecca and Medina). So Saudi Arabia asked Fatah for a list of those from Gaza going on the Hajj, and ignored a list from Hamas. In response, Hamas refused to allow the Fatah approved pilgrims from leaving. Hamas also denied doing this, despite the many Palestinian and Egyptian witnesses to it.

November 21, 2008: Palestinian terrorists in Gaza fired a long range rocket at the Israeli port city of Ashkelon. There were no injuries. These longer range missiles, if fired in large enough quantities (at more populous areas of Israel), could trigger an Israeli invasion of Gaza.....


Source.
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tony7914



Joined: Dec 24, 2004
Posts: 4965

Location: Peru Indiana

PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:52 pm    Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.]

Something that goes with the above.

Hamas Steps On The Wrong Toes

January 5, 2009: The current fighting between Hamas and Israel is only big news because the Israelis are trying to defend themselves. Months of Hamas rocket attacks on Israel, or years of Palestinian terrorist attacks inside Israel, were not news. But this time around it's different. In the past, the Palestinian terrorists were given a pass, because the media in the Moslem world, and many parts of the West, consider the Palestinians victims of Israeli aggression and, therefore, victims no matter what they do. But this time around, it's different. Many Arab governments are openly criticizing Hamas for bringing on the Israeli offensive. Even public opinion in the Arab world is hostile to Hamas, and not as sympathetic to their plight as during past Israeli military operations.
Hamas appears to have used up all its "victim" cred due to their long history of aggression, and unwillingness to negotiate in good (or any) faith. This all began back in 1994-96, when Hamas suicide bomb attacks inside Israel derailed peace negotiations with the Palestinians, and began turning Israeli public opinion against the idea of a peace deal with the Palestinians. Then, in 2000, when a peace deal seemed at hand, Hamas took the lead in launching a massive campaign of terrorist attacks on Israel. These were defeated after a few years, as Israel developed new tactics that kept the terrorists out of Israel. But not before Hamas carried out about 70 percent of 150 suicide bombings that killed a thousand Israelis (mostly civilians, although Hamas didn't care who they killed, even if they were Arabs, as long as it was inside Israel.)

For many Arabs, the line was crossed in 2007, when Hamas launched an attack on its Fatah rivals in Gaza. Nearly 200 Fatah members were killed. In the past, Fatah and Hamas would arrest each others people for a few days. But deliberately killing rivals was considered something only the Israelis did.

Finally, Hamas angered the majority of moderate (culturally) Arabs by attempting to impose lifestyle rules on Palestinians. This was done in the name of Islam, a Hamas effort to impose their vision of how a Moslem should live. While this plays well in places like Saudi Arabia and Iran, it was never what Palestinians believed in, not most Moslems in general. Finally, Hamas has angered most Sunnis (who comprise 80 percent of all Moslems) by accepting military aid, and guidance, from Iran. At the moment, there is growing hostility to Shia (ten percent of all Moslems) Iran because of an increasingly hostile atmosphere between Iran (which believes it should lead the Moslem world) and Arabs (who believe Sunnis should bow to no one in terms of religion). It doesn't help matters that Iran is not an Arab country (they are Indo-European) and have dominated the region for thousands of years. Iranian encouragement of Hamas aggression is seen directed at Arabs as much as Israel.

Many Arabs, while voicing some support for Hamas, are not-so-secretly hoping that Israel will smash this arrogant, pro-Iran organization.

Source.
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