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tony7914

Joined: Dec 24, 2004 Posts: 4965
Location: Peru Indiana
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Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 8:04 pm Post subject: Hamas and Its Discontents |
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Rod Nordland
Newsweek Web Exclusive
Jan 20, 2009 | Updated: 6:39 p.m. ET Jan 20, 2009
It was 11:30 p.m. on Jan. 17, in a complex of apartment buildings at the Nuseirat refugee camp in the Gaza Strip, and Israel had just declared it would impose a unilateral ceasefire to begin at 2 a.m. The incessant sorties of Israeli jet bombers stopped almost immediately, but then suddenly there was a terrific whoosh, louder even than a bomb explosion. It was another of Hamas's homemade Qassam rockets being launched into Israel—and the mobile launchpad was smack in the middle of the four buildings, where every apartment was full, most of them with newly made refugees.
On this occasion, fortunately, there was no Israeli retaliation. At places all over Gaza, however, Palestinian civilians have not been so lucky. Israel blames Hamas for using housing areas, hospitals, schools and mosques to launch attacks into Israel or against its soldiers, provoking defensive counter-fire that it says is responsible for most of the civilian casualties. Hamas retorts that Israel was using indiscriminate force with complete disregard for civilians in the way, especially in its efforts to assassinate Hamas leaders. There are plenty of examples to support both their contentions.
In eastern Jabaliya, just north of Gaza City, an entire neighborhood—at least 50 homes—had been bombed by the Israelis, then occupied with tank units, and then methodically demolished house-by-house, some of them with bulldozers, others with high explosives. In several hours of interviews, every one of the residents interviewed in eastern Jabaliya insisted that there had been no provocation from the area, no resistance fighters, and no rocket launchings. "They are punishing us because they can't reach the resistance to punish them," said Majdi Qatari, a lawyer whose home was one of those destroyed, leaving 13 people homeless. Near him, Najah Abd Rabo shook her head and said Israeli actions were beyond comprehension. "They were claiming there are tunnels under here," she said. Hamas fighters use tunnels, often short ones that are little more than bunkers, to pop out and launch attacks and then get back in, hiding from Israel's ubiquitous surveillance drones, reemerging in a house or backyard as an unarmed civilian. "There aren't any tunnels around here, we are not resistance," she said. Yet not more than 20 feet away from Najah, there was just such a tunnel, which Israeli troops had unearthed. Right in the middle of the road, it had a convincingly camouflaged roof that matched the rest of the road. Inside it was shored up with timbers and concrete..........
Perhaps a doctor at Shifa Hospital summed it up best. "Hamas doesn't care about anything," he said, "and the Israelis will kill anyone to get to Hamas." Today Hamas threw a victory parade. A few hundred young men with green flags marched through the middle of Gaza City, one of them riding on a cart at the head of the procession and holding aloft a chunk of metal, purportedly from an Israeli tank. No one lined the streets to cheer them on. No one poured out from his or her home to join the parade. Most Hamas critics in Gaza are afraid to openly say what they think, but sometimes actions (or the absence of them) speak louder than words. |
Source.
I tend to agree with the doctor. |
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Gezzer

Joined: Oct 19, 2008 Posts: 666
Location: Buckinghamshire England
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Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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a little story that changed how i view things in the middle east, it just happens to be a true little story …
a work mate of mine (Muslim) asked me if on our meat dept. did we sell any halal chicken (i used to work the meat dept)
i answered "no, but we do have some kosher ones for sale"
(at the time we had a whole range of kosher foods)
he replied "that will do, i will go get some"
i then asked (over my shoulder) "you seem to have so much in common with the Jewish, yet you hate each others guts"
his reply stopped me in my tracks, his reply was (with a smile on his face)
"Steve, family are allowed to fight"
that statement changed completely how i look at events in the middle east
and yes i too agree with the good doctor … |
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seaeagle

Joined: Aug 31, 2004 Posts: 5764
Location: Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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It is amazing how much fighting over the centuries has gone on between the 3 major religions when they all worship the same God. Maybe God should send another messenger to sort everything out and clarify any questions. With modern communications the newest messages from above would spread very quickly.
-Just a quirky view from an Athiest who is very glad he made that choice. |
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ejward

Joined: Jan 06, 2003 Posts: 7054
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Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:36 am Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
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| seaeagle wrote: |
It is amazing how much fighting over the centuries has gone on between the 3 major religions when they all worship the same God. Maybe God should send another messenger to sort everything out and clarify any questions. With modern communications the newest messages from above would spread very quickly.
-Just a quirky view from an Athiest who is very glad he made that choice. |
What do you mean "another" messenger?
Hey, God could just IM everyone. I'm sure he's (or she's) got a twitter account. |
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seaeagle

Joined: Aug 31, 2004 Posts: 5764
Location: Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:52 am Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
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| ejward wrote: |
| Hey, God could just IM everyone. I'm sure he's (or she's) got a twitter account. |
Is God exempt from the anti-spam laws?  |
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xavierx

Joined: Nov 06, 2004 Posts: 5427
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Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:05 pm Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
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| seaeagle wrote: |
It is amazing how much fighting over the centuries has gone on between the 3 major religions when they all worship the same God. Maybe God should send another messenger to sort everything out and clarify any questions. With modern communications the newest messages from above would spread very quickly.
-Just a quirky view from an Athiest who is very glad he made that choice. |
I'm reminded of a South Park episode where Cartman went into the future, and everyone was an Atheist. He thought that would be great, that wars would be a thing of the past. But there were still plenty of wars - they were fighting over the answer to "the great question", which was "what atheists should call themselves".
My point is that we don't need religion to fight. We'll always find something to go to war over. Blaming it on religion is just insulting to those of us who aren't atheists.
Here's a link about the episode:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_God_Go_XII |
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CowpokeBob

Joined: Feb 07, 2006 Posts: 1501
Location: South Carolina, USA
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Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:32 pm Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
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| My point is that we don't need religion to fight. We'll always find something to go to war over. Blaming it on religion is just insulting to those of us who aren't atheists. |
Your point is a good one as far as it goes. Not that I'm trying to be insulting or demean anyone wth religious beliefs.but history paints a much different picture. Religion tends to paly a major role in manny conflicts. The reason is rooted in religion itself. All religions rely heavily on faith. It is that faith which requires no hard evidence that can be manipulated to get people to support war. Take the case of Hamas. I don't think for one minute that they do what they do because of religion.But if they proposed a war against Israel because they want the land Israel occupies so they can rule over a much larger area and weild greater power I doubt they would find many followers willing to die for those beliefs. But by claiming that they are fighting a holy war and the Israelis are evil it is much easier to find sacrificial lambs.
Fighting over land, or natural resources, or even ethnic differences just doesn't carry the same level of fanatacism that can be gained when religion is added to the mix. |
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xavierx

Joined: Nov 06, 2004 Posts: 5427
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Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:06 pm Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
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| A valid point, but I think you're putting the emphasis on the wrong thing. It isn't religion or faith that manipulates people to support a war - it's someone corrupting the faith that's doing that. Islam is a perfect example. I know a few Muslims, and every one of them is pissed that terrorists have corrupted their faith. |
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tony7914

Joined: Dec 24, 2004 Posts: 4965
Location: Peru Indiana
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Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:12 pm Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
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| xavierx wrote: |
| A valid point, but I think you're putting the emphasis on the wrong thing. It isn't religion or faith that manipulates people to support a war - it's someone corrupting the faith that's doing that. Islam is a perfect example. I know a few Muslims, and every one of them is pissed that terrorists have corrupted their faith. |
I agree, the Muslim Brotherhood is a good example of that. |
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Gezzer

Joined: Oct 19, 2008 Posts: 666
Location: Buckinghamshire England
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Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:51 am Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
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| tony7914 wrote: |
| xavierx wrote: |
| A valid point, but I think you're putting the emphasis on the wrong thing. It isn't religion or faith that manipulates people to support a war - it's someone corrupting the faith that's doing that. Islam is a perfect example. I know a few Muslims, and every one of them is pissed that terrorists have corrupted their faith. |
I agree, the Muslim Brotherhood is a good example of that. |
and a few Christian examples …
Christian Terrorism |
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tony7914

Joined: Dec 24, 2004 Posts: 4965
Location: Peru Indiana
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Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:05 am Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
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| Gezzer wrote: |
| tony7914 wrote: |
| xavierx wrote: |
| A valid point, but I think you're putting the emphasis on the wrong thing. It isn't religion or faith that manipulates people to support a war - it's someone corrupting the faith that's doing that. Islam is a perfect example. I know a few Muslims, and every one of them is pissed that terrorists have corrupted their faith. |
I agree, the Muslim Brotherhood is a good example of that. |
and a few Christian examples …
Christian Terrorism |
Yea, I was going to add something about that but didn't have time to find a source when I wrote the post. |
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xavierx

Joined: Nov 06, 2004 Posts: 5427
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Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:42 am Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
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| If they are really "Christian" or "Muslim", then they can't be terrorists. All of them are corrupting religion to further their own desires, which is about as far from actual religious belief as you can get. |
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Gezzer

Joined: Oct 19, 2008 Posts: 666
Location: Buckinghamshire England
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Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:56 am Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
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| xavierx wrote: |
| If they are really "Christian" or "Muslim", then they can't be terrorists. All of them are corrupting religion to further their own desires, which is about as far from actual religious belief as you can get. |
no faith, that I'm aware of, condones the killing of one human being by another
its not "a/any" faith that is bad but people who make "a/any" faith bad … |
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xavierx

Joined: Nov 06, 2004 Posts: 5427
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Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:07 pm Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
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| Gezzer wrote: |
| xavierx wrote: |
| If they are really "Christian" or "Muslim", then they can't be terrorists. All of them are corrupting religion to further their own desires, which is about as far from actual religious belief as you can get. |
no faith, that I'm aware of, condones the killing of one human being by another
its not "a/any" faith that is bad but people who make "a/any" faith bad … |
Agreed - that was the point I was trying to make. |
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CowpokeBob

Joined: Feb 07, 2006 Posts: 1501
Location: South Carolina, USA
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Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 2:58 pm Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
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| xavierx wrote: |
| Gezzer wrote: |
| xavierx wrote: |
| If they are really "Christian" or "Muslim", then they can't be terrorists. All of them are corrupting religion to further their own desires, which is about as far from actual religious belief as you can get. |
no faith, that I'm aware of, condones the killing of one human being by another
its not "a/any" faith that is bad but people who make "a/any" faith bad … |
Agreed - that was the point I was trying to make. |
Ah well, I see y'all made it around to what I thought I had said, sort of. No I don't blame religion and I don't think it is the cause of so much conflict. But it relies on faith and faith is a very powerful oxident. Like starting a fire you first need fuel (land dispute, finite natural resource, ethnic difference, etc.) and you need an ignition source (radical element, brutal dictator, etc.) Those two are basically enough to start a fire but it will soon burn out. If you really want a blaze to last you need an oxidizer. For your common fire oxygen works quite well. For a war religion or more specifically faith is the oxidizer of choice. Once you've stirred up the people's faith and reduced them in the process to an unthinking mob mentality the rest is a simple thing.
I don't know if that helps to explain it any better or simply confuses the issue even more but that is the way I see it. In real world terms that are familar to all consider Iraq. In the first Gulf War there was no oxidizer. The mission was a reponse to an act of aggression and when the goal was achieved it was over. The second Iraq War had the twin oxidzers of 9/11 (whether right or wrong) and muslim extremism vs christian values("faith" and again regardless of right or wrong) enhancing it and that resulted in the much bloodier and much longer conflict that is indeed still smoldering.
Or to put it yet another way. When your fighting for Country and your life is on the line you have a tendency to say "screw this!" when your buddies start dropping around you. When your fighting for Faith in Christianity, Islam, HInduism, Shintoism, Sikhism or any other -ism or -anity, when GOD is on the line along with your life there is no compromise, no surrender and no retreat.. |
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Gezzer

Joined: Oct 19, 2008 Posts: 666
Location: Buckinghamshire England
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Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 3:20 pm Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
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| CowpokeBob wrote: |
| xavierx wrote: |
| Gezzer wrote: |
| xavierx wrote: |
| If they are really "Christian" or "Muslim", then they can't be terrorists. All of them are corrupting religion to further their own desires, which is about as far from actual religious belief as you can get. |
no faith, that I'm aware of, condones the killing of one human being by another
its not "a/any" faith that is bad but people who make "a/any" faith bad … |
Agreed - that was the point I was trying to make. |
Ah well, I see y'all made it around to what I thought I had said, sort of. No I don't blame religion and I don't think it is the cause of so much conflict. But it relies on faith and faith is a very powerful oxident. Like starting a fire you first need fuel (land dispute, finite natural resource, ethnic difference, etc.) and you need an ignition source (radical element, brutal dictator, etc.) Those two are basically enough to start a fire but it will soon burn out. If you really want a blaze to last you need an oxidizer. For your common fire oxygen works quite well. For a war religion or more specifically faith is the oxidizer of choice. Once you've stirred up the people's faith and reduced them in the process to an unthinking mob mentality the rest is a simple thing.
I don't know if that helps to explain it any better or simply confuses the issue even more but that is the way I see it. In real world terms that are familar to all consider Iraq. In the first Gulf War there was no oxidizer. The mission was a reponse to an act of aggression and when the goal was achieved it was over. The second Iraq War had the twin oxidzers of 9/11 (whether right or wrong) and muslim extremism vs christian values("faith" and again regardless of right or wrong) enhancing it and that resulted in the much bloodier and much longer conflict that is indeed still smoldering.
Or to put it yet another way. When your fighting for Country and your life is on the line you have a tendency to say "screw this!" when your buddies start dropping around you. When your fighting for Faith in Christianity, Islam, HInduism, Shintoism, Sikhism or any other -ism or -anity, when GOD is on the line along with your life there is no compromise,no surrender and no retreat.. |
and i truly believe that is the problem
for peace to have a chance it takes time
someone has to decide to step back from the brink
then someone has to decide to say "sorry"
then and only then can negotiations of any kind can take place
are we big enough, are we up to the toughest job around, making peace … |
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CowpokeBob

Joined: Feb 07, 2006 Posts: 1501
Location: South Carolina, USA
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Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:22 pm Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
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and i truly believe that is the problem
for peace to have a chance it takes time
someone has to decide to step back from the brink
then someone has to decide to say "sorry"
then and only then can negotiations of any kind can take place
are we big enough, are we up to the toughest job around, making peace …
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Well put but I don't think it will ever happen. Faith is too big an obstacle to step back from for alot of folks and quite a few governments. |
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tony7914

Joined: Dec 24, 2004 Posts: 4965
Location: Peru Indiana
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Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:35 pm Post subject: Hamas tried to hijack ambulances during Gaza war [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
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Jason Koutsoukis in Gaza City
January 26, 2009
Page 1 of 3 | Single page
PALESTINIAN civilians living in Gaza during the three-week war with Israel have spoken of the challenge of being caught between Hamas and Israeli soldiers as the radical Islamic movement that controls the Gaza strip attempted to hijack ambulances.
Mohammed Shriteh, 30, is an ambulance driver registered with and trained by the Palestinian Red Crescent Society.
His first day of work in the al-Quds neighbourhood was January 1, the sixth day of the war. "Mostly the war was not as fast or as chaotic as I expected," Mr Shriteh told the Herald. "We would co-ordinate with the Israelis before we pick up patients, because they have all our names, and our IDs, so they would not shoot at us."
Mr Shriteh said the more immediate threat was from Hamas, who would lure the ambulances into the heart of a battle to transport fighters to safety.
"After the first week, at night time, there was a call for a house in Jabaliya. I got to the house and there was lots of shooting and explosions all around," he said.
Because of the urgency of the call, Mr Shriteh said there was no time to arrange his movements with the IDF.
"I knew the Israelis were watching me because I could see the red laser beam in the ambulance and on me, on my body," he said.
Getting out of the ambulance and entering the house, he saw there were three Hamas fighters taking cover inside. One half of the building had already been destroyed.
"They were very scared, and very nervous … They dropped their weapons and ordered me to get them out, to put them in the ambulance and take them away. I refused, because if the IDF sees me doing this I am finished, I cannot pick up any more wounded people.
"And then one of the fighters picked up a gun and held it to my head, to force me. I still refused, and then they allowed me to leave.".... |
Source.
What's funny is how Hamas goes on about the paradise they are going to get for killing Jews yet when confronted it looks more like they ran with their tails between their legs like a whooped dog.
Funny how the BBC and much of the MSM overlooks things like this. |
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CowpokeBob

Joined: Feb 07, 2006 Posts: 1501
Location: South Carolina, USA
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Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 7:54 pm Post subject: Re: Hamas tried to hijack ambulances during Gaza war [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
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| tony7914 wrote: |
| Quote: |
Jason Koutsoukis in Gaza City
January 26, 2009
Page 1 of 3 | Single page
PALESTINIAN civilians living in Gaza during the three-week war with Israel have spoken of the challenge of being caught between Hamas and Israeli soldiers as the radical Islamic movement that controls the Gaza strip attempted to hijack ambulances.
Mohammed Shriteh, 30, is an ambulance driver registered with and trained by the Palestinian Red Crescent Society.
His first day of work in the al-Quds neighbourhood was January 1, the sixth day of the war. "Mostly the war was not as fast or as chaotic as I expected," Mr Shriteh told the Herald. "We would co-ordinate with the Israelis before we pick up patients, because they have all our names, and our IDs, so they would not shoot at us."
Mr Shriteh said the more immediate threat was from Hamas, who would lure the ambulances into the heart of a battle to transport fighters to safety.
"After the first week, at night time, there was a call for a house in Jabaliya. I got to the house and there was lots of shooting and explosions all around," he said.
Because of the urgency of the call, Mr Shriteh said there was no time to arrange his movements with the IDF.
"I knew the Israelis were watching me because I could see the red laser beam in the ambulance and on me, on my body," he said.
Getting out of the ambulance and entering the house, he saw there were three Hamas fighters taking cover inside. One half of the building had already been destroyed.
"They were very scared, and very nervous … They dropped their weapons and ordered me to get them out, to put them in the ambulance and take them away. I refused, because if the IDF sees me doing this I am finished, I cannot pick up any more wounded people.
"And then one of the fighters picked up a gun and held it to my head, to force me. I still refused, and then they allowed me to leave.".... |
Source.
What's funny is how Hamas goes on about the paradise they are going to get for killing Jews yet when confronted it looks more like they ran with their tails between their legs like a whooped dog.
Funny how the BBC and much of the MSM overlooks things like this. |
Seriously, if they are that eager to become martyrs and go to that paradise all they had to do was step out into the open and 'moon' the Israeli tanks. I'm sure thier wish would have been granted rather quickly. |
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