|
|
| Next: Vista vs. Xp benchmark |
| Author |
Message |
kenmabmcc
Joined: Nov 20, 2003
Posts: 7258
Location: Dunedin, New Zealand.
|
 Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 3:15 am Post subject: Fidel Castro announces retirement |
|
|
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7252109.stm
| Quote: |
Cuba's ailing leader, Fidel Castro has announced he will not return to the presidency in a letter published by official Communist Party paper, Granma.
"I neither will aspire to nor will I accept, the position of president of the Council of state and commander in chief," he wrote in the letter. |
He must have been one of the worlds longest serving head of state.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/nelsonmail/4407342a6418.html
| Quote: |
| His retirement drew the curtain on a political career that spanned the Cold War and survived US enmity, CIA assassination attempts and the demise of Soviet Communism. |
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
bern
Joined: Mar 12, 2007
Posts: 887
Location: ann arbor
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:54 am Post subject: Re: Fidel Castro announces retirement [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
|
|
|
| Unfortunately for the Cuban people, his brother Raoul seems not to be allowing Freedom to occur either.  |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kenmabmcc
Joined: Nov 20, 2003
Posts: 7258
Location: Dunedin, New Zealand.
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 4:15 am Post subject: Fidel Castro announces retirement. [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
|
|
The US could advance freedom by ceasing the embargos and sanctions on Cuba.
Last edited by kenmabmcc on Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bern
Joined: Mar 12, 2007
Posts: 887
Location: ann arbor
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 10:08 am Post subject: Re: Fidel Castro announces retirement. [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
|
|
| kenmabmcc wrote: |
| The US could advance freedom by ceasing the embargo's and sanctions on Cuba. |
Perhaps. Or maybe that would just encourage the nature of the regime without changing it.
The leaders have never been able to make a go of their country without massive foreign assistance from somewhere since they took power. Cuba used to be a vacation and gambling paradise with no need for foreign subsidy. I admit that distribution of that income was poor, but a wiser regime might have solved the distribution problem without bankrupting the place and causing millions of Cubans to risk their lives to flee and the rest to wish they could. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kenmabmcc
Joined: Nov 20, 2003
Posts: 7258
Location: Dunedin, New Zealand.
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 4:54 pm Post subject: Re: Fidel Castro announces retirement. [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
|
|
| bern wrote: |
| Cuba used to be a vacation and gambling paradise with no need for foreign subsidy. |
It had been ruled by as series of dictators and the mafia ruled the gambling.
If the US had not placed embargo's and sanctions on Cuba there would have been no need for foreign subsidy.
But the cold war mentality intervened', "those that arn't for us are against us" , and we all went on to a near nuclear war.
Last edited by kenmabmcc on Wed Feb 20, 2008 7:51 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bern
Joined: Mar 12, 2007
Posts: 887
Location: ann arbor
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:52 pm Post subject: Re: Fidel Castro announces retirement. [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
|
|
| kenmabmcc wrote: |
| It had been ruled by as series of dictators and the mafia ruled the gambling. |
I didn't say I liked the old regime. We had hopes at first that Castro would implement something different.
| kenmabmcc wrote: |
| If the US had not placed embargo's and sanctions on Cuba there would have been no need for foreign subsidy. |
Much of the rest of the world does not go along with our embargo. If Cuba had a viable economic system it would have done OK for all its citizens even in the face of the embargo. And there would not have been a massive exodus.
I have family in Eastern Europe, and visited Russia, E. Germany, Poland, Czechoslovakia, and Yugoslavia several times in the 1960 to 1989 time period. I know very well, both as an observer, and as someone who could speak openly with family members what living under a governmentally controlled economy can be like. There is no reason for me to believe that Cuba is any different.
Now, whether our policy toward Cuba was mistaken is not really the topic of this thread, but it has been the policy through liberal and conservative administrations and legislatures, so is not Bush's fault. My own opinion (you didn't ask, but here goes) is that the policy was mistaken. Why? It clearly didn't work. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kenmabmcc
Joined: Nov 20, 2003
Posts: 7258
Location: Dunedin, New Zealand.
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 8:05 pm Post subject: Re: Fidel Castro announces retirement. [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
|
|
| bern wrote: |
| My own opinion (you didn't ask, but here goes) is that the policy was mistaken. Why? It clearly didn't work. |
That is the best reason to cease the embargos and sanctions.
With US vacationers having open access to the low cost Cuban market, money will follow, but, more importantly, ideas of a free and open society will be interchanged between locals and vacationers.
Lift trade, travel embargos
| Quote: |
Arizona's Rep. Jeff Flake has long pushed for lifting the embargo. He says that instead of continuing to demand political reforms first, the United States can "hasten democratic reforms" by changing the trade and travel policies.
If you believe in the power of the free market, that makes sense.
Lifting the embargo will bring benefits to the people of Cuba and create internal pressure for an open society. It will empower Cuba's reformers and mute the Old Guard hard-liners who resist change. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sgt Schultz
Joined: Dec 07, 2002
Posts: 6829
Location: St. Louis area
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 9:52 pm Post subject: Re: Fidel Castro announces retirement. [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
|
|
| kenmabmcc wrote: |
| bern wrote: |
| My own opinion (you didn't ask, but here goes) is that the policy was mistaken. Why? It clearly didn't work. |
That is the best reason to cease the embargos and sanctions.
With US vacationers having open access to the low cost Cuban market, money will follow, but, more importantly, ideas of a free and open society will be interchanged between locals and vacationers.
Lift trade, travel embargos
| Quote: |
Arizona's Rep. Jeff Flake has long pushed for lifting the embargo. He says that instead of continuing to demand political reforms first, the United States can "hasten democratic reforms" by changing the trade and travel policies.
If you believe in the power of the free market, that makes sense.
Lifting the embargo will bring benefits to the people of Cuba and create internal pressure for an open society. It will empower Cuba's reformers and mute the Old Guard hard-liners who resist change. |
|
I agree. One of the things that helped bring down the Berlin Wall was that the Eastern Germans could see over their TVs what the West Germans had, how they were living, et cetera. That was a formidable factor. Cuba, being a small island it is easier for the government to block the signals. But flood the island with American tourists and money, see how long the communists stay in power. Even China is starting to change, slowly as it may be because of the influx of money and the freedom it brings. But the Cuban exiles are a powerful voting block in Florida and both parties need them to win elections there.... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bern
Joined: Mar 12, 2007
Posts: 887
Location: ann arbor
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:13 pm Post subject: Re: Fidel Castro announces retirement. [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
|
|
| Sgt Schultz wrote: |
| But the Cuban exiles are a powerful voting block in Florida and both parties need them to win elections there.... |
Since 3 of us seem to agree on the failure of the sanctions to have worked, I am asking the following question for speculation, not as challenge:
Why, given that influx of tourists etc. is likely to help change the regime, are the Exiles so opposed to lifting those sanctions.
Any Cuban Exiles reading this willing to answer? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kenmabmcc
Joined: Nov 20, 2003
Posts: 7258
Location: Dunedin, New Zealand.
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:33 am Post subject: Fidel Castro announces retirement. [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
|
|
Castro's Departure Means the U.S. Failed
| Quote: |
Fidel Castro leaving office on his own terms is not the kind of change that successive American presidents envisioned for Cuba. In fact, it's a sign that U.S. efforts to isolate that country and bring down its socialist government have failed. It's a sign that those efforts should be revisited.
Despite a 46-year U.S. embargo, Cuba today is anything but a pariah state. Canada, China and Spain have made major investments in the country over the last decade, particularly in tourism, nickel and energy. Venezuela continues to trade cut-rate oil for Cuban doctors. And the island remains a popular destination for vacationers from around the world.
These relationships have helped the Cuban economy grow -- 7 percent last year, according to CIA estimates. |
We would like to have the same economic growth in NZ.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bern
Joined: Mar 12, 2007
Posts: 887
Location: ann arbor
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:05 am Post subject: Re: Fidel Castro announces retirement. [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
|
|
| kenmabmcc wrote: |
| Quote: |
| These relationships have helped the Cuban economy grow -- 7 percent last year, according to CIA estimates. |
We would like to have the same economic growth in NZ.
|
Your wink suggests you know this, but I'll point it out anyway. When your economy starts near zero, a 7% increase isn't much. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
seaeagle
Joined: Aug 31, 2004
Posts: 5748
Location: Sydney, Australia
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 6:50 am Post subject: Re: Fidel Castro announces retirement. [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
|
|
| bern wrote: |
Since 3 of us seem to agree on the failure of the sanctions to have worked, I am asking the following question for speculation, not as challenge:
Why, given that influx of tourists etc. is likely to help change the regime, are the Exiles so opposed to lifting those sanctions.
Any Cuban Exiles reading this willing to answer? |
Just speculation as I don't know your nation's immigration policies, but could they fear being sent back by the USA to live in Cuba if sanctions are lifted and it moves towards or becomes a democracy? I know that down here we provide some political/warfare/economic refugees with temporary asylum, but if the government decides that their old country is now safe for them to return, then they may be sent back to their old home.
I'm sure that many Cuban exiles would prefer the benefits that come with living in the wealthy USA to living in what may be a free, but still much poorer, Cuba. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bern
Joined: Mar 12, 2007
Posts: 887
Location: ann arbor
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 10:16 am Post subject: Re: Fidel Castro announces retirement. [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
|
|
| Many of the Cuban exiles are now citizens, and vote. There are those who say that they have an influence in Congress out of proportion to their numbers. Fear of being returned there is not an issue, I think. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
seaeagle
Joined: Aug 31, 2004
Posts: 5748
Location: Sydney, Australia
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 12:15 pm Post subject: Re: Fidel Castro announces retirement. [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
|
|
Thanks for filling me in on the issue bern. Maybe the potential loss of Congressional influence could be a contributing factor to why they don't want sanctions removed.
But I think that the majority of cases over the past 50 years or so show that sanctions have little effect on regimes. In my opinion they actually make regimes more stubborn. It becomes an "us versus them" issue in their countries, and can actually unite the population against the nations imposing the sanctions. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nietz
Joined: Feb 02, 2008
Posts: 14
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 1:38 pm Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.] |
|
|
Our first mistake was not supporting Cuba before they turned to the USSR, back when Castro was just a nationalist upset with foreign control of the economy and politics.
Our second mistake was tightening restrictions after the Soviet Union collapsed, when Cuba was in a weak position.
Cuba has always been open to trade, but I don't think they will be too responsive to Democracy & Capitalism right now, especially with the leftist shift in Latin America, the support of China and Russia, a weakening US economy, the failures of middle east democracies, and the shift back to government-managed growth through SWFs and private-bailouts and nationalizations.
The US historically limited trade by punishing any foreign corporation that trades with both Cuba and the US, leaving only small Canadian/UK tourism a viable industry.
But now, China trades directly to Cuba and Latin America has more freely defied the US by opening relations. Since Cuba has the most advanced healthcare and education system in Latin America - the two things L.A. needs most - there is high demand for Cuban universities and physicians. This has created an economic boom, making Cuba one of the fastest economies in the region for nearly 10 years.
They've even created an advanced healthcare research program the EU and American firms have been granted permission to buy new drugs they've created.
Cubans also know what happened when Russia jumped head first. The transition was so painful, polls consistently show most Russians who lived under the Soviet Union believe life was much better and wish it had never been abandoned.
Our best hope would be a China or Vietnam policy. Let them be Communist and encourage reform by building a middle class that has an interest in government.
From what I see, that tends to be the role anyway.
Authoritarian / Colonial -> Managed Growth -> Government Privatizes & Democratizes -> Social Democracy |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
| |
|
|
General