BIOS not recognising replacement drive

davolente · Joined: Oct 04, 2003 Posts: 361 Location: Kent, UK

Very old secondary machine, (originally Win 98!) but running XP fairly happily with low-demand applications like mail and on-line music. Very small main drive (12 gigs), but I have been running a 40gig drive as extra storage on a USB adaptor and it works fine, showing full capacity, both in Explorer and in XP's disc management. However, I thought it would be a good idea to change the old "c" drive, as it was getting very low on space, so I cloned it to the 40gig drive with a floppy program called HDClone (after backing up data on that drive elsewhere of course!)
http://www.miray.de/products/sat.hdclone.html#free
which does USB support and looking at all the folders and hidden system files whilst still in situ as an extra drive, it seems to be an exact copy of the old one, so that seems to have gone well BUT, all that is irrelevant, because when I install the 40 gig drive as the master, the BIOS screen on boot-up won't get past "Detecting master EIDE drive" and just sits there doing nothing. I`m led to believe that it might be something to do with the elderly BIOS not being able to recognise that size drive. Is this likely, bearing in mind it shows up OK in the USB adaptor, or is this some limitation when used as the master or "c" drive? Wonder if partitioning it whilst it's still in the USB adaptor would do the trick, as I had to do that as a work-around on an old machine belonging to a friend some years ago when his motherboard wouldn't see a bigger slave drive, in which case, I`m a little hazy as to how I tell it which partition would be the boot drive when cloning again.

micker377 · Joined: May 27, 2005 Posts: 1059

Do you have access to another XP computer? You could mount this as a slave, and use "Disk Management" to see what is going on with the different partitions on the drive in question.

davolente · Joined: Oct 04, 2003 Posts: 361 Location: Kent, UK

Thanks Micker 377. The cloned 40 gig drive shows up fine in the old machine, as normal, whilst in the USB adaptor, both in XP`s disc management and in Explorer with all data accessible, etc. It's only when I try to install it as the master in that machine that it's not recognised by the BIOS and doesn't get any further, which makes me think it might be a limitation somewhere in the BIOS.
I've just come across this bit of info. elsewhere in answer to someone having a similar problem:
"There are two barriers to hard disk recognition, depending on the age of your BIOS. Around the 1997-98 timeframe, the upgrade from a max of 8gig to 32gig happened, then in late 1999, the upgrade from 32gig to 128gig happened. If you have an older BIOS, you'd see the symptoms you describe. Check the date of your BIOS, and also check if there is an upgrade for your MB available from the manufacturer's web site."
This elderly machine could well be in that time-frame, but why does the drive show up OK in the USB adaptor? Is is only a size limitation when used in the master position?

goretsky · Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 3:01 am Post subject:

Hello,

The BIOS limitation affects hard disk drives plugged directly in the PATA controller on the motherboard, not accessed through other interfaces, such as the USB interface.

Regards,

Aryeh Goretsky

bern · Joined: Mar 12, 2007 Posts: 1487 Location: ann arbor

Are you sure that your floppy based clone program wrote the boot sector properly? I would test this whole concept by installing the drive in another XP computer and see if it tries to boot. (It may not boot successfully because of hardware differences, but it should at least try.

Baby_Tux · Joined: Mar 06, 2007 Posts: 1242

This may sound weird since you are imaging a drive & thus writing over anything on it but I have found in SOME RARE cases that you have to FDISK the drive to work with the LARGER size then format it. (it will prompt you, answer yes) Then do the imaging. - you SHOULD be able to do this in the USB case.

IF you still have the ORIGINAL drive intact, this should be a "piece of cake". If NOT you may be screwed as if you try to clone it back, you stand the chance that the "new" drives image may NOT be correct. - hope your backups are real good...

Dee101 · Joined: Dec 09, 2007 Posts: 39

Davolente gave a good summary of HDD size evolution. You could check for a BIOS flash for the motherboard to see if they have something that will expand the drive size supported.

When looking to add a larger drive on an old MBO, one of the tricks I use is to attach it as slave first and see if I can get the MBO to recognize it. If that works, then I consider using it as the primary drive. If not, and a BIOS flash still does not help, I look for something smaller.

davolente · Joined: Oct 04, 2003 Posts: 361 Location: Kent, UK

Thanks to all. To those who are on the track of the cloning operation, boot sector, etc; surely if the BIOS screen isn't even recognising the drive and getting no further, am I right in thinking that whatever's on the drive is somewhat academic? I'm assuming that under normal circumstances it's not even thinking about loading Windows until all the hardware is recognised or detected (is that right?) and it certainly gets no further than trying to detect the master EIDE drive (the 40 gigs one when installed) when powered up, although I'm not that clear as to the sequence of events. Perhaps someone could run through that for me if I'm barking up the wrong tree!. I was also fooled by the fact that the larger drive was recognised OK and worked fine in the USB adaptor, but (thanks to Aryeh Goretsky) it seems that limitation doesn't apply on that interface. Seems that it's a size problem when trying to use it as the master on an elderly machine. I still have the original drive and the back-ups from the 40 gig, which was originally used as an extra, so nothing has been lost. Me no fool!! (I think). Smile

Baby_Tux · Joined: Mar 06, 2007 Posts: 1242

bern · Joined: Mar 12, 2007 Posts: 1487 Location: ann arbor

I haven't run into this for some years. But my last recollection of the size problem on one of my machines was that the BIOS recognized the drive, but thought it was the wrong size i.e. too small.

davolente · Joined: Oct 04, 2003 Posts: 361 Location: Kent, UK

Yes, thanks for that. A friend has also just mailed me and reminded me that it might just report the wrong size but mine is just not seeing it at all. Odd, especially as it's fully functional in the USB adaptor, although, as has been mentioned, the interface is different. If I fathom it, I'll post it!

bern · Joined: Mar 12, 2007 Posts: 1487 Location: ann arbor

I really, really, really like micker above would like to see what happens when you plug that drive into a newer XP computer. Surely you must have an acquaintance who would oblige you.

zzron357 · Joined: Oct 14, 2004 Posts: 65

Hi Davolente, Check to be sure first partition of new drive has been set active.
I don't have an answer to the system seeing the drive. Lot of good tips above.
I did find in a Dell that in the bios setup a drive (slave) can be disabled and give
the result you are seeing. If you would tell us cpu speed and ram available this
might help to understand pc limits.
If I were in your place, I would likely partition the 40 Gb into 16 and 24 Gb, with the idea of cloning the 12 to the 16 G partition. I would do this either with a Boot-it-NG
boot disk or with a Puppy Linux live-cd. Either one can set partition active.
Boot-it-ng partitions, resizes, images, but does not format ntfs.
Puppy (now V.4.1.1) has Gparted, and can create, resize, move, and format ntfs.
Running Puppy (in ram) one can copy data from one drive or partition to another
and/or to a flash drive or external drive. I use it daily to save data from drives with the
OS all messed up. Prior to wipe and reinstall when needed. Puppy comes as an ISO just 95 Mb. Just burn image to disk and you are ready to go.
If you download Boot-it-ng you can make a boot floppy from the download w/o buying the product. I use a boot cd which comes from the paid product when no floppy on newer pc's.
I have not (yet) tried to use puppy to copy C: to C: between drives and then swap
drives and boot. Of course if you can get the 40 to show up as slave, xp-pro
can resize and format for you, and xcopy /. D:\ /s/c/h/e/r/k (run in windows) can
give a bootable copy. Just need to set drive active. (xcopy32 in win98)
Let us know how this comes out. Hope some of this helps.
Ron

goretsky

Hello,

Have you checked to see if a BIOS update is available from the computer or motherboard manufacturer? That is usually where fixes for large hard disk drive recognition are performed. The release notes for the BIOS update would typically mention such a change.

Regards,

Aryeh Goretsky

davolente · Joined: Oct 04, 2003 Posts: 361 Location: Kent, UK

Many thanks to all for the input. Really appreciate all the comments, but I think I may have cracked it (almost!). Old machine, right? Came across this on Western Digital's site:
http://tinyurl.com/63j45z
I had seen something similar on another site before, but they do say not to use the alternate jumpers in XP. HOWEVER, I thought I would try the jumper configuration anyway and would you believe the beastly BIOS recognised it and the thing booted into Windows from the cloned drive, also reporting it as the correct size! Only trouble is, there are some undesirable "side effects", which I don't understand, especially as the drive is supposed to be an exact copy. When I first booted up it was very slow and a dialogue box came up saying Windows has finished installing additional software but I don't know what. So far, I have found out that a diagnostic utility I use reverted to an expired trial and begged to be activated. The machine is connected to the main machine via a cross-over cable and I can't access files from the short-cuts I created from either direction or even the the "network" (in "My Network Places") when running on the cloned drive, "Not available. May not have permission to access" error, although internet access is OK from the second machine. Sharing is still enabled. Also, some of Zone Alarm's options had reverted to default with the intrusion warnings popping up (originally disabled) and logging switched back on again. Other settings and accesses seem to be the same, so I don't think Zone Alarm is the problem, otherwise I wouldn't be able to access the net, presumably.
Is this normal to have these glitches, or is there something else wrong? I might try a second cloning but any pointers on that?
I am temporarily back to the way things were, until I get the problems resolved.

bern · Joined: Mar 12, 2007 Posts: 1487 Location: ann arbor

davolente · Joined: Oct 04, 2003 Posts: 361 Location: Kent, UK

Thanks again. I have actually got Western Digital's "Life Guard Tools" on a floppy and had a second go at cloning, using that, as I also got the machine to recognise the 40 gig drive as a slave, using the alternative jumper configuration. Got to about 5% copied and an error came up saying that not all the files had been copied, but no indication of what had actually gone wrong. Currently trying "HDClone again". Will post again when "cooked" !! My brain hurts! Rolling Eyes

Baby_Tux · Joined: Mar 06, 2007 Posts: 1242

Just to rule out the possibility of a bad drive, run the diags on it, first. (if you haven't already)

I think you already know this but just in case - If you still intend to run this drive as master, remember to change the jumper for master or cable select.

micker377 · Joined: May 27, 2005 Posts: 1059

Another thing to keep in the back of your mind: can you get access to an IDE "expansion" card (used to add more drives than you have ports for)? They have their own BIOS, and will recognize newer drives. May be more than you want to spend on this old machine - but IS a solution! I get all my parts from Fry's Electronics stores - they have a VERY friendly return policy!!! In this case, I would get one - see if it solves my problem - and take it back if it doesn't!

davolente · Joined: Oct 04, 2003 Posts: 361 Location: Kent, UK

Fry's? That must be across the pond from me, being in the UK. ANYWAY.........once again, many thanks for all those who took the trouble to put forward suggestions, but I'm 99.9999% there! Tried another format and cloning, and set the drive up with the alternative jumpers, as per the Western Digital blurb, although it does say not to use that configuration on XP but, hey, the rules are there to be broken, especially if it happens to work! Boots into Windows but I still had odd problems, which worked out as I went along. Zone Alarm's settings seem to have reverted to default, requiring re-confirmation of internet access for programs, disabling intrusion warnings and also disabling intrusion logging, which had re-appeared after having previously been turned off. It had also lost the IP address of the main PC in the zones list, which is why I couldn't access anything either way initially. As I mentioned, other items also reverted to default settings with one program requiring re-activating with the serial number. I'm gradually checking other programs but so far, so good. I shall run the drive for a while to be on the safe side before finally switching for good but has anyone got any ideas (out of interest) what might have caused the odd errors on the cloning side?