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kenmabmcc



Joined: Nov 20, 2003
Posts: 8178

Location: Dunedin, New Zealand.
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 7:41 am    Post subject:
Journalists tell of US Falluja killings

Quote:
The reports of the use of napalm in civilian areas are widespread, as are many other frightening allegations.

The attacks on the hospitals and medical facilities in Falluja are also in direct contravention of the Geneva Conventions.

But as Richard Perle, a senior adviser to US President George Bush, said at the start of the Iraq war: "The greatest triumph of the Iraq war is the destruction of the evil of international law."
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Martok



Joined: Sep 06, 2004
Posts: 751
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 8:34 am    Post subject:
Quote:
Journalists tell of US Falluja killings

Quote:
The reports of the use of napalm in civilian areas are widespread, as are many other frightening allegations.

The attacks on the hospitals and medical facilities in Falluja are also in direct contravention of the Geneva Conventions.

But as Richard Perle, a senior adviser to US President George Bush, said at the start of the Iraq war: "The greatest triumph of the Iraq war is the destruction of the evil of international law."

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1. The photo in this story with the caption "Journalists accuse US soldiers of targeting children" is not a US soldier.

2. The Richard Perle quote is a fabrication, only loosely based on a quote made in 2003, not in 2004. The meaning and context have been changed.

3. "Dr. Salem Ismael" supposedly took photos of dead children in Fallujah. Where are the photos?

That's 3 strikes.

I wouldn't trust anything in this article.
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Outshined



Joined: Dec 09, 2002
Posts: 4409
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 9:05 am    Post subject:
Quote:

1. The photo in this story with the caption "Journalists accuse US soldiers of targeting children" is not a US soldier.

2. The Richard Perle quote is a fabrication, only loosely based on a quote made in 2003, not in 2004. The meaning and context have been changed.

3. "Dr. Salem Ismael" supposedly took photos of dead children in Fallujah. Where are the photos?

That's 3 strikes.

I wouldn't trust anything in this article.
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Nice catch. It is not a US uniform, and Al-Jazeera is pretty uniform with their hyperbole and fabrication.
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Outshined



Joined: Dec 09, 2002
Posts: 4409
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 9:20 am    Post subject:
Quote:
Did the U.S. Use "Illegal" Weapons in Fallujah?
Media allegations claim the U.S. used outlawed weapons during combat in Iraq

The fighting in Fallujah, Iraq has led to a number of widespread myths including false charges that the United States is using chemical weapons such napalm and poison gas. None of these allegations are true.

Qatar-based Internet site Islam Online was one of the first to spread the false chemical weapons claim. On November 10, 2004, it reported that U.S. troops were allegedly using "chemical weapons and poisonous gas" in Fallujah. ("US Troops Reportedly Gassing Fallujah") It sourced this claim to Al-Quds Press, which cited only anonymous sources for its allegation.

The inaccurate Islam Online story has been posted on hundreds of Web sites.

On November 12, 2004, the U.S. Department of Defense issued a denial of the chemical weapons charge, stating:

"The United States categorically denies the use of chemical weapons at anytime in Iraq, which includes the ongoing Fallujah operation. Furthermore, the United States does not under any circumstance support or condone the development, production, acquisition, transfer or use of chemical weapons by any country. All chemical weapons currently possessed by the United States have been declared to the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) and are being destroyed in the United States in accordance with our obligations under the Chemical Weapons Convention."

To its credit, Islam Online ran a Nov. 25, 2004, story carrying the U.S. denial.

In both stories, Islam Online noted that U.S. forces had used napalm-like incendiary weapons during the march to Baghdad in the spring of 2003. Although all napalm in the U.S. arsenal had been destroyed by 2001, Mark-77 firebombs, which have a similar effect to napalm, were used against enemy positions in 2003.

The repetition of this story on Islam Online’s led to further misinformation. Some readers did not distinguish between what had happened in the spring of 2003, during the march to Baghdad, and in Fallujah in November 2004. They mistakenly thought napalm-like weapons had been used in Fallujah, which is not true. No Mark-77 firebombs have been used in operations in Fallujah.

On Nov. 11, 2004, the Nov. 10 Islam Online story was reposted by the New York Transfer News Web site, with the inaccurate headline "Resistance Says US Using Napalm, Gas in Fallujah."

The headline was wrong in two ways. First, as explained above, Islam Online was incorrect in claiming that U.S. forces were using poison gas in Fallujah. Second, the New York Transfer News misread the Islam Online story to mean that U.S. forces were currently using napalm-like weapons in Fallujah. But Islam Online had never claimed this; it had only talked about napalm use in 2003.

The false napalm allegation then took on a life of its own. Further postings on the Internet repeated or recreated the error that the New York Transfer News had made, which eventually appeared in print media. For example, on Nov. 28, 2004, the UK’s Sunday Mirror inaccurately claimed U.S. forces were "secretly using outlawed napalm gas" in Fallujah.

The Sunday Mirror story was wrong in two ways.

First, napalm or napalm-like incendiary weapons are not outlawed. International law permits their use against military forces, which is how they were used in 2003.

Second, as noted above, no Mark-77 firebombs were used in Fallujah.

The Sunday Mirror’s phrasing "napalm gas" is also revealing. Napalm is a gel, not a gas. Why did the Sunday Mirror describe it as a gas?

It may be that, somewhere along the line, a sloppy reader read the inaccurate New York Transfer News headline, "Resistance Says US Using Napalm, Gas in Fallujah," and omitted the comma between napalm and gas, yielding the nonsensical "napalm gas."

Next, the Sunday Mirror’s misinformation about “napalm gas” was reported in identical articles on Nov. 28 by aljazeera.com and islamonline.com. These two Web sites, which are owned by the same company – Al Jazeera Publishing – are deceptive look-alike Web sites that masquerade as the English-language sites of the popular Qatar-based Arabic-language satellite television station al Jazeera and the popular Islam Online Web site, which is islamonline.net.

Finally, some news accounts have claimed that U.S. forces have used "outlawed" phosphorus shells in Fallujah. Phosphorus shells are not outlawed. U.S. forces have used them very sparingly in Fallujah, for illumination purposes. They were fired into the air to illuminate enemy positions at night, not at enemy fighters.

There is a great deal of misinformation feeding on itself about U.S. forces allegedly using "outlawed" weapons in Fallujah. The facts are that U.S. forces are not using any illegal weapons in Fallujah or anywhere else in Iraq.
link

Prove otherwise.
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Sgt Schultz



Joined: Dec 07, 2002
Posts: 7378

Location: St. Louis area
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 10:17 am    Post subject:
Quote:
Nice catch. It is not a US uniform, and Al-Jazeera is pretty uniform with their hyperbole and fabrication.
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That looks like an Iraqi uniform though the helmet is US issue. But that's what they wear since we gave them a bunch.
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patio



Joined: Feb 03, 2004
Posts: 5598
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 10:50 am    Post subject:
Al-Jazeera News---We Decide...We Report.

patio.
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Serial666



Joined: Aug 04, 2004
Posts: 2981
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 12:49 pm    Post subject:
Quote:
1. The photo in this story with the caption "Journalists accuse US soldiers of targeting children" is not a US soldier.

As Sgt. Schultz pointed out, the man in the photo is probably an Iraqi.
However, in the eyes of the rest of the world, and indeed to all real intents and
purposes he is an American soldier, after all, that is where he gets his orders......
In a war torn state like Iraq even children are suspect, and quite rightly so.
If I where still there I would be searching the little buggers also.....
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patio



Joined: Feb 03, 2004
Posts: 5598
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 12:52 am    Post subject:
Although it's an obvious mis-representation, that's a very valid point Serial.

The more blatant mis-representation is that we napalmed Fallujah and i don't think that should be ignored.

patio.
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Serial666



Joined: Aug 04, 2004
Posts: 2981
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 1:32 am    Post subject:
Quote:
2. The Richard Perle quote is a fabrication, only loosely based on a quote made in 2003, not in 2004. The meaning and context have been changed.

Whether this quote is from 2003 or 2005 is immaterial....
Quote:
as Richard Perle, a senior adviser to US President George Bush, said at the start of the Iraq war: "The greatest triumph of the Iraq war is the destruction of the evil of international law."

In what context could this quote be considered innocuous?
How could it's meaning change?
How can "International Law" be considered evil?
and finally,
What makes you think that anyone who can say this is not a liability?
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Serial666



Joined: Aug 04, 2004
Posts: 2981
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 2:00 am    Post subject:
Quote:
3. "Dr. Salem Ismael" supposedly took photos of dead children in Fallujah. Where are the photos?

Here's one....... CLICK if you need to see the dead baby.
Quote:
That's 3 strikes

But who's out?
Just because YOU say it's true does not make it so.....
There are always civilian casualties, children are not immune to bullets.
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Martok



Joined: Sep 06, 2004
Posts: 751
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 6:50 am    Post subject:
Quote:
Quote:
2. The Richard Perle quote is a fabrication, only loosely based on a quote made in 2003, not in 2004. The meaning and context have been changed.

Whether this quote is from 2003 or 2005 is immaterial....
Quote:
as Richard Perle, a senior adviser to US President George Bush, said at the start of the Iraq war: "The greatest triumph of the Iraq war is the destruction of the evil of international law."

In what context could this quote be considered innocuous?
How could it's meaning change?
How can "International Law" be considered evil?
and finally,
What makes you think that anyone who can say this is not a liability?
[right][snapback]253176[/snapback][/right]


Ok, here we go:

The quote in the original article was NOT made by Richard Perle. The fabricated quote was supposed to have occurred after we cleaned up Fallujah. The actual quote it was "loosely" based on, was made in 2003...BEFOFE we cleaned up Fallujah. I am not defending Richard Perle, but he did NOT say this. This quote is a lie.
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Martok



Joined: Sep 06, 2004
Posts: 751
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 7:07 am    Post subject:
Quote:
Quote:
3. "Dr. Salem Ismael" supposedly took photos of dead children in Fallujah. Where are the photos?

Here's one....... CLICK if you need to see the dead baby.
Quote:
That's 3 strikes

But who's out?
Just because YOU say it's true does not make it so.....
There are always civilian casualties, children are not immune to bullets.
[right][snapback]253177[/snapback][/right]


Was this photo taken by Dr. Salem Ismael?

FYI: This child's injuries are consistent with an explosive, not a bullet.

It is sad that any children are hurt.
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Serial666



Joined: Aug 04, 2004
Posts: 2981
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 12:30 pm    Post subject:
Quote:
Was this photo taken by Dr. Salem Ismael?

Who cares who took it, children died.
Quote:
FYI: This child's injuries are consistent with an explosive, not a bullet.

So you can see the rest of the picture by remote viewing?
To me the kid's injuries look remarkably consistent with being dead.
(by the way, this picture was taken by an american soldier.....)
If you take a peek at the rest of the site that this came from you can guess at
other people's causes of death.....

The Nausea....


This man's cause of death should be easier for you to guess at......


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Serial666



Joined: Aug 04, 2004
Posts: 2981
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 12:36 pm    Post subject:
Quote:
The actual quote it was "loosely" based on, was made in 2003...BEFOFE we cleaned up Fallujah. I am not defending Richard Perle, but he did NOT say this. This quote is a lie.

Can you favour us with the actual quote then.
Perhaps he didn't say that international law was evil.
Enlighten us.......
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Martok



Joined: Sep 06, 2004
Posts: 751
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 6:43 pm    Post subject:
Quote:
Quote:
Was this photo taken by Dr. Salem Ismael?

Who cares who took it, children died.
Quote:
FYI: This child's injuries are consistent with an explosive, not a bullet.

So you can see the rest of the picture by remote viewing?
To me the kid's injuries look remarkably consistent with being dead.
(by the way, this picture was taken by an american soldier.....)
If you take a peek at the rest of the site that this came from you can guess at
other people's causes of death.....

The Nausea....


This man's cause of death should be easier for you to guess at......
[right][snapback]253234[/snapback][/right]


You can knock yourself out looking at all the photos you want.

While you're at it, maybe you'll find the photos Dr. Salem Ismael took. These are the ones Aljazeera refered to in the article, but never produced.

Just because Aljazeera says it's true does not make it so.....
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Martok



Joined: Sep 06, 2004
Posts: 751
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 6:51 pm    Post subject:
Quote:
Quote:
The actual quote it was "loosely" based on, was made in 2003...BEFOFE we cleaned up Fallujah. I am not defending Richard Perle, but he did NOT say this. This quote is a lie.

Can you favour us with the actual quote then.
Perhaps he didn't say that international law was evil.
Enlighten us.......
[right][snapback]253236[/snapback][/right]


"I think in this case international law stood in the way of doing the right thing."

As I stated, I am not defending Richard Perle, but Aljazeera lied.

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Serial666



Joined: Aug 04, 2004
Posts: 2981
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 4:47 am    Post subject:
Quote:
"I think in this case international law stood in the way of doing the right thing."

You don't know what he said, or where or even when he said it, do you.....
Your relying on something that you remember someone else saying, or heard, or
saw on TV.
Find a scource.

I do not know whether "Aljazeera" lied on this or not, I cannot prove anything.
Unless you can, then I think it's imprudent to call them liars.
Put up or shut up.

As for the pictures, I have shown you dead children in Fallujah.
Who took them is immaterial.

The fact is that I don't think anything you say can be credible:-
Quote:
FYI: This child's injuries are consistent with an explosive, not a bullet.

When you don't have evidence, you make things up to fit your own theories
and beliefs, then call it proof.
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Martok



Joined: Sep 06, 2004
Posts: 751
PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 2:11 am    Post subject:
Quote:
Quote:
"I think in this case international law stood in the way of doing the right thing."

You don't know what he said, or where or even when he said it, do you.....
Your relying on something that you remember someone else saying, or heard, or
saw on TV.
Find a scource.

I do not know whether "Aljazeera" lied on this or not, I cannot prove anything.
Unless you can, then I think it's imprudent to call them liars.
Put up or shut up.

As for the pictures, I have shown you dead children in Fallujah.
Who took them is immaterial.

The fact is that I don't think anything you say can be credible:-
Quote:
FYI: This child's injuries are consistent with an explosive, not a bullet.

When you don't have evidence, you make things up to fit your own theories
and beliefs, then call it proof.
[right][snapback]253359[/snapback][/right]

Let's try this again. You obviously misunderstood my original post.
Quote:
"I think in this case international law stood in the way of doing the right thing."
This is the original quote by Richard Perle - 11/20/03 - London (Look it up).
Quote:
I do not know whether "Aljazeera" lied on this or not, I cannot prove anything.
It is up to Aljazeera to prove their story...they did not.
Quote:
As for the pictures, I have shown you dead children in Fallujah.
Who took them is immaterial.
Wrong. The statement was not about photos, it was about sources and credible reporting. Aljazeera stated Dr. Salem Ismael took photos, but never produced them. That makes it hearsay at best. As it is, I can find no one else who has published them either.
Quote:
FYI: This child's injuries are consistent with an explosive, not a bullet.
You stated a bullet, I stated the obvious.
Quote:
When you don't have evidence, you make things up to fit your own theories
and beliefs, then call it proof.
I believe you have me confused with Aljazeera.
Quote:
The fact is that I don't think anything you say can be credible:-
As you wish.
Quote:
Put up or shut up.
Put up...yes. Shut up...not a chance, but thank you for your response.
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kenmabmcc



Joined: Nov 20, 2003
Posts: 8178

Location: Dunedin, New Zealand.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 7:10 pm    Post subject:
Quote:


Ok, here we go:

The quote in the original article was NOT made by Richard Perle. The fabricated quote was supposed to have occurred after we cleaned up Fallujah. The actual quote it was "loosely" based on, was made in 2003...BEFOFE we cleaned up Fallujah. I am not defending Richard Perle, but he did NOT say this. This quote is a lie.
[right][snapback]253192[/snapback][/right]



War critics astonished as US hawk admits invasion was illegal

Quote:
In a startling break with the official White House and Downing Street lines, Mr Perle told an audience in London: "I think in this case international law stood in the way of doing the right thing."


In other words: We don't need no stinkin' laws.

Quote:
Perle has been a leading member of the hawkish neo-conservative cabal present in the Bush White House, even after scandal forced him to relinquish his chairmanship of the Defense Policy Board (don't worry, in true Bush administration fashion, he wasn't really held accountable – he still sits on the board). But during a speech delivered in London yesterday, he shocked the audience by admitting with no uncertainty that the Iraq War was illegal under international law:



  "I think in this case international law stood in the way of doing the right thing…international law…would have required is to leave Saddam Hussein alone."


Iraq Watch
An Ilegal Invasion

Quote:
Mr. Speaker, now in an absolutely stunning statement today, Richard Perle, who has been the chairman of the Defense Policy Board, this is the board that talks to the President about what he should do with defense, today he said, ``I think in this case international law stood in the way of doing the right thing.'' Now, consider what that means. International law says what we are doing is illegal, but we are going to go ahead and do it anyway because we made the decision that what we think is more important than international law.
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kenmabmcc



Joined: Nov 20, 2003
Posts: 8178

Location: Dunedin, New Zealand.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 7:15 pm    Post subject:
Quote:
Quote:
The actual quote it was "loosely" based on, was made in 2003...BEFOFE we cleaned up Fallujah. I am not defending Richard Perle, but he did NOT say this. This quote is a lie.

Can you favour us with the actual quote then.
Perhaps he didn't say that international law was evil.
Enlighten us.......
[right][snapback]253236[/snapback][/right]



Perle

Quote:
... Richard Perle "The greatest triumph of the Iraq war is the destruction of the evil of international law"
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